Western vs. Japanese Games

[Abnormal Palm]

For me, it's a total no-brainer. While I experienced the early/mid-80s home computer scene and followed that up with the Amiga, and had a lot of fun playing those games, the second I played Super Mario Bros, the 8-bit computers of my childhood were dead. The second I played Mario Kart and Street Fighter 2 on my mate's SNES, the Amiga was dead. There's an almost indefinable mechanically tactile satisfaction to those games which still holds up brilliantly today. Any affection I might have for playing anything on the Amiga or C64 or Spectrum or BBC is nothing more than memories of relatively innocent times.

I largely skipped 90s PC gaming and the Xbox, and their contemporary descendants tend to do relatively little for me. I will play and enjoy immersive sims and FPS and opened world collectathons and strategy games, this isn't a dismissal, but it's rare that I will truly adore any Western games. GTAV, The Witcher 3, AC Odyssey, HZD, these are great, but the only Western games I've really adored in recent years are Skyrim, The Last of Us, RDR2 and Titanfall 2. I'll throw in Isaac, as well, but I generally have little interest in indie stuff.

On the other hand, Japanese games continue to excite my imagination to the day. Souls, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter, Cave/Treasure/Raizing shmups, Groove Coaster, Persona, GT Sport, Rez, Tetris Effect, Darius, Silent Hill, Sonic, Pantsu Hunter, MGS, Bayonetta, Team Ico, Monster Hunter, Nier, RE4, Out Run, Space Harrier, Phoenix Wright. And that's even before I get to bloody Nintendo...

Japanese games get a fair bit of stick for cultural reasons but for me, they're typically so mechanically superior to Western games that they will always have a very direct sensory appeal to me, and that indefinable gamey quality which keeps me coming back.

I have a feeling about how the forum might be represented in the poll but I'd be curious to know your thoughts.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I don't care where a game is from, as long as it's good.

[C_Larence]

Japan has auters who are given the freedom to make unique games, for better and for worse. People like Hideo Kojima (Metal Gear Solid, Death Stranding), Yoko Taro (Drakengard, NIER), Hideki Kamiya (Bayonetta, Devil May Cry) Tomonobu Itagaki* (Dead Or Alive, Ninja Gaiden), Shu Takumi (Ace Attorney, Ghost Trick), Kotaro Uchikoshi (Zero Escape series).

Who are the equivalents here? The only name that springs to mind is Toby Fox (Undertale) and that's a stretch.

*I forgot his name and found it by googling "oatmeal face japanese game developer"

[bgmnts]

Hideo Kojima's games are basically western films though.

[C_Larence]

Hideo Kojima's games are basically western films though.

That's true, but they're still Japanese games! They're unpolished and allowed to be flawed, as opposed to a western example of a game inspired by films, like The Last Of Us or Uncharted.

[Bazooka]

It's definitely in Japans favour, but Banjo Kazooie trumps Mario 64.  Japanese taste is definitely more eccentric on the whole when it comes to taking risks in games, it's more likely going to pay off sales wise because the majority of the consumer base isn't going to think "Hmm looks weird".  Where as in the west most people will not look past your big AAA especially physical sales, hence bigger developers won't risk flushing away the Yankee dollar.

Japan needs to pull its finger out and make some FPS games, to which then the shoe is on the other foot.

I'd say my play is 70/30 over various platforms in favour of Japanese games, simply down to the fact they knock out more RPGs.

[bgmnts]

Surely we only see Japan as really eccentric and creative because we aren't Japanese, right?

[Bazooka]

Surely we only see Japan as really eccentric and creative because we aren't Japanese, right?

I mean the Japanese are more likely to take what you could call an eccentric risk in game design, which yes assumes the Western market might not take to it. Japanese culture is certainly less accessible to the global market.

[madhair60]

I voted Western by accident but I meant to not vote at all

Japanese games are generally shit now but then so are Western ones, just in different ways. Every game basically needs to shut the fuck up though. That's the main problem with games, too much noise.

[madhair60]

the only contemporary Japanese games I enjoy I think are Mario and Dark Souls/its clones, I really can't think of anything else. they're all total fucking shit. meanwhile loads of great western indies. I just wouldn't pick one because it's stupid

[Dewt]

Apart from the really strong indie scene in the West, it's Japanese all the way.[nb]Although a HUGE part of that is Nintendo. Mainstream games are becoming tiresome across the board[/nb] And then just look at the likes of Cave Story showing that Japan produces incredible indie games too.

More evidence that the West is a dying, inelegant society

[madhair60]

i'm seriously trying to think of one, literally one japanese game I really like from the last say 5 years that isn't a Souls derivative. any single one and nothing is springing to mind. there's got to be one. surely.

[bgmnts]

I'd say best few games over the past few years have been western but overall Japan is the best maybe. I mean Mario and Zelda basically ARE video games.

But then Atari... fuck knows.

[Kelvin]

Interesting thread, as usual, Abnormal Palm. I wouldn't really say I had a preference, especially as, generally speaking, Nintendo aren't a company focused on art styles or even systems that you mostly associate with Japanese gaming. The one thing that I definitely do prefer about Japanese gaming is the... I dunno, the atmosphere? The off beat sense of humour?

Speaking in very broad generalities, Japanese games seem a lot less self-serious, a lot more quirky, much more able to capably blend together a variety of different tones into a cohesive whole. When I think of western games, I think of their drab main characters, their bland side characters, their realistic animations - western AAA games are almost always so grounded. Japanese games are tropey too, but perhaps because I'm not immersed in that culture, it feels more interesting, more imaginative, more varied than the stuff being put out by the big western developers. Even something grittier like Resident Evil is filled will memorable characters, ridiculous lines, a sense of the absurd. They just blend light with dark much better, imo. Their worlds feel richer, more vivid as a result of it.

[Lemming]

Western developers made Fallout, Deus Ex, Doom, Civilization, Tomb Raider, Alpha Centauri, Half-Life, StarCraft, Unreal Tournament, System Shock, Counter-Strike etc.

The Japanese gaming industry is best known for its jRPGs, games in which you sit and read while sometimes pressing a key to continue. These games also all have the same plot as each other, just with the names changed in each game. They also sell PowerPoint presentations and call them visual novels. A flagship Japanese developer is Hideo Kojima, who I think makes games that are basically movies about his cock.

Japan also made Chu Chu Rocket though so maybe its not as clear cut as it seems.

[madhair60]

Even something grittier like Resident Evil is filled will memorable characters, ridiculous lines, a sense of the absurd. They just blend light with dark much better, imo. Their worlds feel richer, more vivid as a result of it.

Fuck I forgot Resi!

[Kelvin]

Western developers made Fallout, Deus Ex, Doom, Civilization, Tomb Raider, Alpha Centauri, Half-Life, StarCraft, Unreal Tournament, System Shock, Counter-Strike etc.

How many of those series are still in their pomp, though? Doom and Half-Life are the only ones with new games that launched to great reviews.

Edit: Not that this is about reviews, of course. I just mean that games like Fallout, Deux Ex, Unreal, System Shock, Counter Strike, they aren't game which have been big in recent years.

[bgmnts]

Resident Evil
Silent Hill
Metal Gear Solid

3 of the biggest japanese video game franchises owe everything to western fiction cliches.

Isn't Silent Hill partially modelled after Kindergarten Cop?

[Urinal Cake]

Who are the equivalents here? The only name that springs to mind is Toby Fox (Undertale) and that's a stretch.

*I forgot his name and found it by googling "oatmeal face japanese game developer"

Peter Molyneux!

[popcorn]

Japan has auters who are given the freedom to make unique games, for better and for worse.

Who are the equivalents here?

You are forgetting the greatest auteur of our generation, DAVID CAGE.

[bgmnts]

Tim Schafer and Chris Avellone maybe?

[Lemming]

We don't really have auteurs here (thank fucking god) but any indie developer who makes a unique game in their own vision surely counts.

How many of those series are still in their pomp, though? Doom and Half-Life are the only ones with new games that launched to great reviews.

Edit: Not that this is about reviews, of course. I just mean that games like Fallout, Deux Ex, Unreal, System Shock, Counter Strike, they aren't game which have been big in recent years.

You're right but I'd be hard-pressed to list too many games I really enjoyed from the last five years, Western or Japanese, so my frame of reference is at least half a decade out if not more.

[madhair60]

i think i just like the whole worldwide spectrum of video games as it stands, i tend to fall in with the western stuff for certain genres and the japanese stuff for others. one big bonus of japanese games for me is they're always very earnest and even when they're self-referential or sardonic it's in the polite japanese exasperation sort of way rather than just reference reference reference like american stuff (compare the humour in any given Japanese game to the likes of the intolerable Borderlands series). as far as mechanics go they all influence each other so much there's little point hashing it out over the miniscule differences.

the likes of Mario and Zelda are so distinct from everything else that I can barely consider them products of any particular school of design besides just "nintendo".

[bgmnts]

Yeah but its not just Mario and Zelda, Japanese video games tend to be more video gamey, like Okami and Katamari Damacy.

[madhair60]

Mm, both PS2 games from before the indie boom, though. And both re-released repeatedly with either forgotten sequels (Okamiden) or barely different/inferior followups (every Katamari sequel). I think "video gamey" is so nebulous it's basically meaningless but I think I understand your point. Japan definitely seems to eschew "cinematic" gaming but then if you only pay attention to the AAA scene you're not seeing the best the medium has to offer anyway!

[madhair60]

FWIW I highlighted Zelda and Mario in particular because I think they stand so far apart from everything else that comes out of Nihon that they are barely worth considering Japanese games

[Urinal Cake]

What's the Western equivalent which continually innovates like Mario and Zelda? GTA, maybe Fortnite.

[Abnormal Palm]

FWIW I highlighted Zelda and Mario in particular because I think they stand so far apart from everything else that comes out of Nihon that they are barely worth considering Japanese games

Yep, hence the poll options.

I do think a key difference is the arcade roots (and ongoing existence) in Japan. I think that is why I/many people consider Japanese games 'videogamey'. I know it's a topic of some debate and preference but Street Fighter, Tekken, KoF/SNK, Soul Calibur, the Arc System Works games not only outnumber Western fighting games but so far exceed them in quality as to not even compare. Likewise, with shmups. There were infinite Western shooting games produced from the 8-bit era to the present day but there are possibly only one or two which would make the top 50 of all time. Look at the shmups forum annual vote, for confirmation. I'm sure you could imagine little worse!

I would say that as a crude generalisation Japanese games prioritise controls, where Western games prioritise immersion. Obviously, anyone would be able to find exceptions to this but even as the medium has developed and ideas have been passed back and forth, I think you can still feel that Japanese games have their roots in the arcade and Western games have their roots in home computers.

[Abnormal Palm]

Resident Evil
Silent Hill
Metal Gear Solid

3 of the biggest japanese video game franchises owe everything to western fiction cliches.

Isn't Silent Hill partially modelled after Kindergarten Cop?

This is an interesting one, because we do have plenty of Western games in the same genres and I can't think of a single one which compares or which goes anywhere near where the likes of Resi and MGS take their genres and the medium. It's true that Kojima games are massively influenced by Western movies but compare Syphon Filter to MGS. A screenshot might have you believe that the games were carbon copies. In reality, MGS dwarfs SF not only in mechanical execution, but also in terms of ambition and an authorial voice which barely compares to anything else. I don't especially like Kojima games, but it's hard to deny that he takes his inspirations and runs very very far with them.

Likewise, I don't really know much about the Silent Hill games beyond the first couple but they are channeling a very Japanese type of horror much moreso than Kindergarten Cop. It's not just about the original inspiration, it's where that takes you. I'll assume you were joking there, even though I gave an serious answer to be on the safe side.

[Abnormal Palm]

i'm seriously trying to think of one, literally one japanese game I really like from the last say 5 years that isn't a Souls derivative. any single one and nothing is springing to mind. there's got to be one. surely.

Sorry, working my way back through the thread.

Splatoon?
ARMS?
Smash?
Animal Crossing?
Nier: Automata?

You should play Groove Coaster, to be honest.

Which Western games do you really like from the last five years? Seems like a loaded question, but out of curiosity. I see you're enjoying Lego City Undercover. You've got your own sensibilities, and I respect that. I feel like you celebrate and enjoy 'personality' even if the game is mechanically simple or full on jank.

Not a criticism, I always find your tastes very interesting and often baffling, and hence interesting again.