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March 28, 2024, 04:35:27 PM

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Terry Pratchett - recommend me some please

Started by Johnboy, April 02, 2020, 09:36:48 AM

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Johnboy

Where should I start with Terry Pratchett?

Read Mort 30 years ago, liked it, haven't been near him since but now in these uncertain times I'm up for his universe

Endicott

Start at the beginning - The Colour of Magic.

Cerys

Surely if you're going to start at the beginning it should be The Carpet People?

Glyn

Quote from: Endicott on April 02, 2020, 09:58:22 AM
Start at the beginning - The Colour of Magic.

Just a preference but would personally recommend not touching the first two until you have covered some others .
The style isnt very representative of the rest in my view (more straightforward fantasy parodies whilst the rest use a fantasy setting to parody real life) and I found them slightly  weaker for it.

My suggestions would be covering the stronger character based books  :

If you've enjoyed Mort then the Death novels are  : Reaper Man/ Hogfather/ Soul Music

Sam Vines& The Watch : Guards Guards/ Men at Arms/ Nights Watch

The Witches : Equal Rites/ Wyrd Sisters/ Witches Abroad/ Lords and Ladies

Moist Von Lipsig : Going Postal/ Making Money

Or something like Pyramids is a very good stand alone book if you want less commitment to start with.

They have a vague internal consistency but I didn't find much reason to read them in completely chronological order.

samadriel

The final "grown-up" novel, Raising Steam, is a really good Moist von Lipwig novel, but save it for last.

An early standalone gem is Moving Pictures. The first two novels aren't great, but Rincewind the Wizzard stars in a few gems, like The Last Continent and Interesting Times, among others. They're usually the lighter, more adventurous capers, and Pratchett does them well. I recommend the Vimes/City Watch novels - there's quite a lot of them, and they usually catch Pratchett at his best.

Dog Botherer

Monstrous Regiment is a great stand alone story to dive into. i'd recommend any of them really though.

earl_sleek

I'd agree that Colour of Magic probably isn't the best place to start. If you liked Mort (which was the book that got me into Discworld) then the Death sub-series mentioned by Glyn upthread is a good place to start. Agree with samadriel that the City Watch novels are some of the best as well.

Small Gods is another really good standalone.

Island isn't Discworld, but felt very Disc-ish when I read it - that was a long time ago though.

Glyn

Sorry if diverting the thread a bit (and I'm in danger of doing the exact opposite of what the OP is after) but this has inspired me to go back to some of the Discworld novels that I either didn't quite get at the time or don't remember liking too much.

My mum got me into it at an early age (about the same time I got into python) and whilst that was obviously fantastic I'm fairly sure that I missed a lot of context of some of the more topical ones. I also used to get hardbacks of the mid to later ones for Christmas and tended to devour them by Boxing Day so will be good to take some time over them. My current reading list is along the lines of

Interesting Times : would love to know whether I disliked this because I wasn't getting all of the Chinese references or just because I've never been a huge fan of Rincewind (but clearly all the other wizards are great, if you haven't read The Science Of the Discworld books then go do it now!)

Jingo : the politics likely went over my head.

Lords and Ladies : I remember really enjoying this (and was particularly pleased that it was a longer novel) but there is no chance I knew much of Midsummer Night's Dream ( same must be true with Wyrd Sisters and Macbeth)

Thief of Time : would have been in my late teens by this point so no excuse but I just remember that the whole time travel bit confused me

Fifth Elephant : another mid to late novel that I didn't enjoy much.

I'm pretty much writing off the likes of Monstrous Regiment ,The Last Continent and Thud as I'm more confident that I just didn't like those.

Anyone else planning a re-read and if so are you being more sensible by sticking to the ones you liked ?

Mister Six

Definitely don't read the first three Discworld books (Colour of Magic, Light Fantastic, Equal Rites) as even Pratchett admits he didn't quite get the tone until the fourth (Mort).

A lot of people suggest Small Gods as a good place to start, as it's smart and funny, but also entirely self-contained.

The other self-contained books are Pyramids (parody of Tom Brown's schooldays, but with assassins), Moving Pictures (the Discworld discovers cinema) and The Truth (the invention of the printing press causes chaos).

The Discworld books he wrote for young readers are also great, and often darker than the "adult" stuff. To be honest, other than having kids as the protagonists, I don't really see them as being any different to the others. The Amazing Maurice and His Educated Rodents is standalone. The others follow young witch Tiffany Aching: The Wee Free Men, A Hat Full of Sky, Wintersmith, I Shall Wear Sky, The Shepherd's Crown.

I'd suggest either running through a couple of those stories, or a couple of the Death, Vimes or Witches ones below, in order (see my notes to Glyn for the full and correct order of books). If they chime then either read through whichever characters' stories you are interested in (ideally in correct order, to enjoy character development, though past CoM and LF, the books are self-contained with no cliffhangers) or just start from Colour of Magic and run through them all in order.

Sadly, by the last three books he wrote (Snuff, Raising Steam, The Shepherd's Crown) his Alzheimer's was really kicking in, and the stories are not as tight or as smoothly written as they used to be. Just to prepare you.

Quote from: Glyn on April 02, 2020, 11:22:31 AM
If you've enjoyed Mort then the Death novels are  : Reaper Man/ Hogfather/ Soul Music

Sam Vines& The Watch : Guards Guards/ Men at Arms/ Nights Watch

The Witches : Equal Rites/ Wyrd Sisters/ Witches Abroad/ Lords and Ladies

You're missing a few/getting them in the wrong order here...

DEATH: Mort, Reaper Man, Soul Music, Hogfather, Thief of Time

VIMES AND THE CITY WATCH: Guard! Guards!, Men at Arms, Feet of Clay, Jingo, The Fifth Elephant, Night Watch, Thud!, Snuff.

THE WITCHES: Wyrd Sisters, Witches Abroad, Lords and Ladies, Maskerade, Carpe Jugulum.

samadriel

The first one I read was Small Gods. I would have been 13, and it was okay, but I imagine I would get a lot more out of it now, with a bit more time under my belt. It's frequently called the best Discworld book, but it's a bit like CoM/tLF in that it's highly atypical and not really the place to begin.

I owned a few paperbacks and would occasionally open one to a page somewhere in the middle and read from there; it was just such a joy to come in at the crescendo of these stories and ride the wave to the end.

If you enjoy the Witches books mentioned above, you might want to try Maskerade; it's a bit more accessible than the Shakespeare stuff, most of which slid off me like waste of a duck's back. I'm alright with Macbeth, but... I get Lords & Ladies and Wyrd Sisters mixed up sometimes, but I distinctly recall one of them became absolutely unreadable towards the end, just an unintelligible mash of words. I can't remember if I even finished it; I wonder if I was just having trouble concentrating that day, or if it really was just gibberish.

Edit: well, most of this post still makes sense, probably better to listen to Six than me.

Mister Six

Funnily enough, Small Gods was the first one I read too. Picked up a remaindered paperback version with slightly mangled pages in the middle on holiday. Still loved it though.

The first Pratchett book I read was Johnny and the Dead, maybe a year earlier, though obviously that wasn't a Discworld one.

Quote from: Glyn on April 02, 2020, 02:45:43 PM
Sorry if diverting the thread a bit (and I'm in danger of doing the exact opposite of what the OP is after) but this has inspired me to go back to some of the Discworld novels that I either didn't quite get at the time or don't remember liking too much.

I was reading them on publication at probably the same age you hit them and I didn't like Jingo or Last Continent much either. The latter in particular felt like it had been pushed on him by publishers or fans, and he hadn't been able to come up with much beyond the Aussie references he'd amassed.

I thought Fifth Elephant was a huge return to form though.

Still haven't read the last Tiffany Aching book (though friends have told me it's a bit rough due to the Alzheimer's). Can't quite bring myself to do it. I've got a project on, but once that's done I reckon I'll do a full read through of all the Discworld books, including the Science Ofs, and finish up with that one.

Poor Terry. What a cunt Alzheimer's is.

samadriel

Quote from: Mister Six on April 02, 2020, 03:35:40 PM
The first Pratchett book I read was Johnny and the Dead, maybe a year earlier, though obviously that wasn't a Discworld one.

Oh yeah, I loved the Johnny books as a kid, I bet they hold up too. I particularly recall both my mother and I enjoying Johnny and the Bomb.

Phil_A

I started reading them in my early teens and was a massive fan up till the late nineties books where I felt like the quality had started to decline. Actually I think Soul Music was the first one that properly disappointed me, the story was all over the place and as a direct sequel to Mort it was a bit of a letdown -
Spoiler alert
it even did the equivalent of a TV show killing a character off-screen when the actor playing them quits, which is a bit bizarre for a book.
[close]

There was a definitely a mid-point in the series where it felt like he was going through the motions, namely with Jingo, Carpe Jugulum and The Fifth Elephant. The second of those in particular irritated me as it was pretty much a reprise of Lords & Ladies with Vampires instead of Elves, and I felt like there was a certain smugness and complacency creeping into his writing that I didn't really like.

I drifted away from the series after that except for picking up the odd one here and there. As a late entry, Night Watch was fantastic, partly because I feel like Vimes was the character Pratchett was most invested in, the most fleshed-out of all his creations. I love the Watch books in general which is why I'm worried the forthcoming TV show is going to be complete and utter toilet.

Johnboy

this is great thanks

I'm thinking the first Vimes/watch and maybe Moving Pictures

Mister Six

The Watch books are the most beloved for sure, so good choice. Men at Arms and Feet of Clay are my two faves from that series.

I do think there's something to be said for reading the whole series in chronological order, starting with The Colour of Magic, as you can see how the themes of the series developed (and, a bit later, how things like the industrial revolution change the Disc). Maybe give that a try when you finish/tire of the Watch books?

Save Last Hero for when you're done with the Rincewind and Watch  books (or whenever you reach it in a chronological read-through) though, as it's a bit of an Avengers-style mashup of the various characters, basically as an excuse to let Paul Kidby have fun drawing them all.

Dewt

Men At Arms and Maskerade are the best two.

For King of the Unpleasant Nerds, Pratchett was good at writing women characters

Glyn

Quote from: Mister Six on April 02, 2020, 03:35:40 PM

I thought Fifth Elephant was a huge return to form though.

Still haven't read the last Tiffany Aching book (though friends have told me it's a bit rough due to the Alzheimer's).

Cheers will start with Fifth Elephant then! I really did read some of them too fast but I'd agree with the post above about how the 'later middle' books were when it felt a bit too much like it was coasting (although for me even 'bad' Pratchett has a phenomenal joke rate, will be researched thoroughly and will leave at least one subplot worth sticking with) . Night Watch is the obvious exception but it wasn't until Going Postal and the Tiffany/Nac Mcfeegle books that I felt he'd found new characters who had enough that was interesting to hang off them.

Definitely worth reading The Shepherds Crown , it has an emotional punch to it and was a good send off to the discworld I thought.

This thread has also reminded me to get all of the Tiffany books out of the loft as my kids are just the right age for them. Feels a bit like cheating to get to double up on those too !

Mister Six

How old are your kids? I remember one of the TA books (Wintersmith?) opening with her recalling having given an abortion to a girl who was raped by her dad, or something close to that. Made the next "adult" Discworld book I read look like a right flimsy bit of fluff.

Gambrinus

Nation is an absolute cracker. Not Discworld but very much worth a look.

Kryton

Quote from: Phil_A on April 02, 2020, 04:36:22 PM
I started reading them in my early teens and was a massive fan up till the late nineties books where I felt like the quality had started to decline. Actually I think Soul Music was the first one that properly disappointed me, the story was all over the place and as a direct sequel to Mort it was a bit of a letdown -
Spoiler alert
it even did the equivalent of a TV show killing a character off-screen when the actor playing them quits, which is a bit bizarre for a book.
[close]

There was a definitely a mid-point in the series where it felt like he was going through the motions, namely with Jingo, Carpe Jugulum and The Fifth Elephant. The second of those in particular irritated me as it was pretty much a reprise of Lords & Ladies with Vampires instead of Elves, and I felt like there was a certain smugness and complacency creeping into his writing that I didn't really like.

I drifted away from the series after that except for picking up the odd one here and there. As a late entry, Night Watch was fantastic, partly because I feel like Vimes was the character Pratchett was most invested in, the most fleshed-out of all his creations. I love the Watch books in general which is why I'm worried the forthcoming TV show is going to be complete and utter toilet.

I second Night watch being his absolute best.

Pyramids being the worst. I think Hogfather is overrated but Feet of Clay is great.

Norton Canes

No fans of Sourcery? That's the first one I read, and it hooked me. Loved the epic scale of the magic, the involvement of the gods etc. The reason Rincewind and his crew can't get a magic carpet to fly is priceless.

Reading China Mieville's Perdido Street Station now, New Crobuzon has a lot of Ankh-Morpork about it.

Norton Canes

Read about a dozen or so Discworld novels after that. The earlier ones, mostly brilliant. Small Gods, yeah, that's a fantastic self-contained story. I remember liking Lords And Ladies, the one with the evil Elves. The one that finally convinced me they were on a bit of a slide was the one where hundreds of shopping trolleys appear, or something?

samadriel

Quote from: Norton Canes on April 03, 2020, 09:37:08 AM
Read about a dozen or so Discworld novels after that. The earlier ones, mostly brilliant. Small Gods, yeah, that's a fantastic self-contained story. I remember liking Lords And Ladies, the one with the evil Elves. The one that finally convinced me they were on a bit of a slide was the one where hundreds of shopping trolleys appear, or something?

From memory, that's Reaper Man, a bit early to say they slid from there. I sort of drifted away from the Disc after Soul Music, but there were still heaps of good books after that, I just didn't get to them as quickly.

Mister Six

Yeah, that's Reaper Man. That subplot is a bit naff (the Dungeon Dimensions always felt like a cheap way to bring a bit of danger into things) and the business about shopping centres sucking the life out of towns is a bit overfamiliar now, but but main story about Death is great, I think.

Kryton

Quote from: Norton Canes on April 03, 2020, 09:37:08 AM
Read about a dozen or so Discworld novels after that. The earlier ones, mostly brilliant. Small Gods, yeah, that's a fantastic self-contained story. I remember liking Lords And Ladies, the one with the evil Elves. The one that finally convinced me they were on a bit of a slide was the one where hundreds of shopping trolleys appear, or something?

Moving Pictures I think. Reaper man.

The Guards stuff is my favourite, I also love the Wizards University. Pratchett had a way of really finding the unity in people. A ragtag bunch of mostly useless idiots in City armour suddenly becomes responsible for reducing crime all across the city. Or the bumbling buffoons in up the upper echelons of knowledge of magic all worrying about trivial stuff. The Witches too, delves into some good folklore and the characters like most are well rounded. I'll be honest, I've snorted and giggled many times on public transport when reading Terry's work.

His later stuff is more evolved and slightly more serious. Not a criticism. It gets a bit darker too and grittier.

Mister Six

I was thinking about Hrun the barbarian from The Colour of Magic last night. Him and his daft adventures with the upside-down mountain and the sexy queen woman. Not read CoM for decades now, but was his plotline pretty much straight faced? In my memory the book more or less plays out like a standard fantasy, with only Rincewind and Twoflower (and the gods, I suppose) hinting at what would come. Cohen in the second book was far more on point.

Jerzy Bondov

I gave all my Discworld books away to a friend, except for a signed copy of The Last Continent (not great, but it's signed) and Night Watch. I know Night Watch is a late entry in the Watch series but, look, life is short and there are a lot of books out there. I'd recommend starting with Night Watch because it's just really, really good. I've since bought the posh illustrated Folio editions of Mort and Small Gods, and don't feel like I need to keep or reread any others. I was crazy about these books when I was a teenager but I suddenly decided one day I only liked really sparse prose and Terry's footnote heavy approach was naff and try-hard. I don't feel like that now mind.

Dewt

Footnotes make these fucking impossible on a Kindle.

Phil_A

Quote from: Mister Six on April 04, 2020, 04:52:21 AM
I was thinking about Hrun the barbarian from The Colour of Magic last night. Him and his daft adventures with the upside-down mountain and the sexy queen woman. Not read CoM for decades now, but was his plotline pretty much straight faced? In my memory the book more or less plays out like a standard fantasy, with only Rincewind and Twoflower (and the gods, I suppose) hinting at what would come. Cohen in the second book was far more on point.

That whole plot thread is a pretty accurate pastiche of traditional Conan-esque sword n' sorcery, maybe a bit too accurate as he didn't put enough gags in to make it obvious.

Likewise with the two wandering rogues Rincewind tells his story to at the beginning, who are basically just lifted from Fitz Leiber's "Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser" stories, but without that knowledge their presence in the tale is a bit confounding.

olliebean

Quote from: Dewt on April 04, 2020, 09:27:25 AM
Footnotes make these fucking impossible on a Kindle.

It's perfectly possible to do footnotes on a Kindle - you touch the superscripted number and the footnote pops up in a window. I haven't read a Pratchett on my Kindle, but it's disappointing if they haven't implemented the footnotes properly.