Quiz (Charles Ingram WWTBA Millionaire fraud drama on ITV)

[Captain Z]

The essay which Ronson links to: https://web.archive.org/web/20060305191039/http://www.portia.org/chapter14/major.html

I'm absolutely exhausted from some of the stretches that is trying to make.

[Hand Solo]

Jon Ronson, who attended the trial, believes in their innocence.

Oh well, case closed then.

[notjosh]

I'm absolutely exhausted from some of the stretches that is trying to make.

I'm on the fence about whether or not the coughing could be entirely innocent, and the round-the-houses answering style some kind of brilliant MENSA-informed strategy.

But I agree that Celador acted like a right flock of cunts, and this should never have seen the inside of a criminal court. The comparison to prosecuting a footballer for diving is spot on.

[Captain Z]

I mean, OK, there are some of the 34(!) points made that could be considered as not clear-cut. But even within the opening the author seems to (deliberately or otherwise) misinterpret this:

Mr Whitehurst is a strong quizzer who probably knew the answers to many of the questions. His certainty on the coughing, as expressed to the court, differs from his police statement of September 2001, which concludes: "I would like to say that it is possible that what I saw was just an amazing set of coincidences and that the possibility remains that I witnessed no criminal behaviour."

That doesn't really "differ" at all. He's clearly suggesting that of course he can't be 100% certain, but it would have to be an "amazing set of coincidences" for it not to be cheating.

(I'm not having a go at you here btw notjosh, the author just annoyed me a couple of times)

[Malcy]

Chris Tarrant doesn't think they are innocent and said that he hoped that Sheen's portrayal of him isn't what he thinks it will be.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ioo4QqoWiR8

He's going to be disappointed if this is anything to go by!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=DWMNUcbAIAM

[Rolf Lundgren]

I still strongly believe they're guilty because the recording is so suspicious. Almost everything in it makes them look guilty. Ignoring the coughs, Diana's the biggest giveaway; constantly looking in the direction of Tecwen Whittock is bizarre and her coughing on the Craig David question is just laughable.

The recording is very suspicious but it's important to remember that the footage is all provided by Celador.

Plaskett's alleges that when Judith Keppel won the million, there were a lot of times when somebody coughed before she said the right answer. For example here's a link to somebody coughing before Judith gives her final answer for the last question: https://youtu.be/f_zcphpDi6c?t=1040

It's probably happened hundreds of times but if you want it to fit a certain story then it's pretty convenient.

I agree with you about Diana's behaviour and weird cough that sounds fake, that's harder to explain away. For balance I also think the way Charles' answers the questions where he doesn't explain why he's suddenly changing his answer are strange too but not stranger then the idea that he's listening for a cough from somebody he's never met in a studio full of people coughing.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

For what it's worth, the Celador and ITV execs come across as sneaky buggers in the dramatisation. Not villains as such, but they're not depicted as an entirely wronged party.

I suppose it's quite 'brave' of ITV to show a drama like this, but then again the current regime could argue that this scandal had nothing to do with them. We're innocent, mate. Wouldn't happen under our watch.

[Jockice]

They should have arranged for Teflon Pillock (or whatever he was called) to sneeze instead of cough. Nobody would have noticed then.

[Jockice]

Plaskett's alleges that when Judith Keppel won the million, there were a lot of times when somebody coughed before she said the right answer. For example here's a link to somebody coughing before Judith gives her final answer for the last question: https://youtu.be/f_zcphpDi6c?t=1040

Wasn't she related to the queen though? So I think it was fixed anyway. This of course remains the only episode of the show I've ever seen. As previously recounted, I was staying with relatives who insisted on watching it, even though everyone in Britain already knew what was going to happen. I thought people watched quiz shows because of the element of surprise. And because of that I missed the last episode of One Foot In The Grave, which I still haven't watched. The moment had passed.

So sod them all. I might watch this drama though. Sounds quite interesting.

[notjosh]

I agree with you about Diana's behaviour and weird cough that sounds fake, that's harder to explain away. For balance I also think the way Charles' answers the questions where he doesn't explain why he's suddenly changing his answer are strange too but not stranger then the idea that he's listening for a cough from somebody he's never met in a studio full of people coughing.

I do find the suggestion that later in the game he 'forgets' the system to be a bit strange. When you look at his behaviour the guy has to be either extremely smart or a complete fuckwit. And, whether it's true or not, I think the fact that the latter explanation makes the evicence look so much more entertaining may well have had an influence on the jury.

[Jockice]

The essay which Ronson links to: https://web.archive.org/web/20060305191039/http://www.portia.org/chapter14/major.html

"But the gentleman was a Scot, for whom the disincentive of losing £93,000 weighed more heavily in his deliberations than the enormous practical and mathematical arguments in favour of saying "Dog." So he declined to continue. Smiling, but clearly finding it hard to believe that the player would not go for it, Tarrant said "Go on!". Those were not the most guarded words he ever uttered. But the opinions of 186 people, plus now that of the host, were insufficient to remove from a Scottish mind the fear that 14 others might be right. So he stayed true to character and took his money.!

I mean, what the fuck? Was he wearing a kilt and eating haggis at the time as well?

[Annie Labuntur]

They should have arranged for Teflon Pillock (or whatever he was called) to sneeze instead of cough. Nobody would have noticed then.

Whittock let it slip that the original plan was for him to do an Alf Ippititimus Wu-heeyyy!  It beggars belief.

[mr. logic]

Oh well, case closed then.

Well, no, it's just another informed opinion in the mix.

[Replies From View]

They also were arguing with eachother backstage and in the hotel room night after the win which made the production team very suspicious, presumably because Whittock and wifey went off-script to the plan and started coughing so much it would raise suspicion.

I think it's more likely because Ingram went further than they originally agreed.  If he'd settled with £125,000 they wouldn't have been found out but he got greedy and they didn't have an established way of saying "STOP PLAYING", so he played on and the coughs kept coming.

Plus on one of the questions he didn't follow the established pattern; previously he'd gone around all the answers to give Whittock a chance to cough in the right place, but for this question he just lingered on the wrong answer, leaving Whittock with no option but to either let Ingram guess wrongly (and drop back to £32,000) or conspicuously go *COUGH, NO*


That's just my hunch mind you based on looking at him and his wife side by side.  She looks more like the brains behind such an operation than he would be.  He looks like the kind of man who'd think "this plan is going excellently, I shall keep going!" rather than settle at £125,000.  His wife looks more shrewd and a bit scary.



Edit: sorry; Captain Z already said it.

I thought they had practically admitted it in the end? I'm sure I read that the overheard argument was specifically about Charles not sticking to the plan to give up at a more modest amount so as not to arouse so much suspicion/publicity.

[Replies From View]

Yup.  He was supposed to stop at £32K.

Can't believe the stupidity of his wife for yelling that at him in the dressing-room though.

That, to me, was the main determinant of their guilt, the fact that according to the backstage staff they both looked miserable and angry, and the argument and its alleged contents.

You can see how panicked she is in the audience.  She's anxious that Ingram is going higher and higher.

[paruses]

Wasn't she related to the queen though?

I am pretty sure she said that she really needed the money as she was so skint she had had to go and live in France.

That must be where various people in the subsidised accommodation over the way from me keep disappearing to.

Also looking forward to watching this - I find Chris Tarrant absolutely fascinating to watch - like Alan Partridge keeps going back to read the email sent in about the guy being buried with two Page 3 stunnas (they're still alive).

[popcorn]

I do love how cabbers come together to examine cases like this. IS BARRYMORE INNOCENT?

[Marner and Me]

Interested to see this. One thing we'll all be scrutinising, of course, is Michael Sheen's Chris Tarrant. We've already been gifted with Peter Serafinowicz's version.

That April from Peep Show?

[Replies From View]

I do love how cabbers come together to examine cases like this. IS BARRYMORE INNOCENT?

I do miss biggytitbo when we have threads like this.  He'd be arguing that Ingram is innocent, I presume.

[paruses]

That April from Peep Show?

Yes. The lovely April from Peep Show.

[imitationleather]

He'd be arguing that Ingram is innocent, I presume.

Did he ever argue anyone was innocent? I think stating the guilt of people who had been cleared due to insumountable evidence was more his thing.

[chveik]

Did he ever argue anyone was innocent? I think stating the guilt of people who had been cleared due to insumountable evidence was more his thing.

OJ Simpson I think.

[Replies From View]

He'd take the view most contrary to popular CaB opinion I suspect. 

He'd have been arguing for the innocence of Brendan Dassey if we hadn't already been doing that ourselves, because taking that position involved disagreeing with an official narrative.  To be contrary to us he instead had to argue that Dassey was guilty - a position that ironically had him following the stance of the FBI.

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

I wouldn 't mind but the questions yer man got leading up to the million were annoyingly easy. I read a magazine article reprinting the actual questions from the quiz, and only managed to fuck up on the penultimate two before the actual million quid question , which most cunts would know the right answer to, Shirley?

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

Yes. The lovely April from Peep Show.

You get to see her talk dirty on that clip, too. Cor! ( cos of her frustrated uttering of " fucker" when they go to the ad break)
Also love her pained, annoyed expressions at the tarrantesque jokes about " Heads" and " Tails", and her surname being Taylor.

[Small Man Big Horse]

I wouldn 't mind but the questions yer man got leading up to the million were annoyingly easy. I read a magazine article reprinting the actual questions from the quiz, and only managed to fuck up on the penultimate two before the actual million quid question , which most cunts would know the right answer to, Shirley?

Just found them here: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/tv/quiz-charles-ingram-millionaire-tarrant-18028048

The River Foyle question did me in embarrassingly early on, though Geography has always been my very, very worst subject. After that I was okay until I got to the Anthony Eden question and then got the wrong answer, so I guess if I'd asked the audience early on I'd have at least done vaguely okay. I didn't know the next one either, but you're not wrong about the million pound question however, and was surprised it was that (relatively) easy.

[Annie Labuntur]

You get to see her talk dirty on that clip, too. Cor!

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

Anyone watch this, then?

I love the fact that David Liddiment, of all people, is now a prominent character in a (hoho) major ITV drama.

[EOLAN]

I did. No One Foot in the Grave reference?

Was hoping to dip in to a 7 page extension of the discussion but it seems we were all only interested in the foreplay.

I mainly wanted to say that I was able to get the Anthony Eden question from the Ingram quiz due to the Kinks. Could have possibly humiliated myself on the £500 question though.

[Small Man Big Horse]

Yeah I agree, the loud voices explanation does sound a bit fishy and can see why it might have caused somebody to wonder about it but to my mind somebody has retrofitted the argument to fit their accusation about a plan going too far. They could have been arguing but I doubt it was about that.

Relating to the arguing, here's the testimony of the person I (extremely briefly) dated:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2836937.stm

I have no reason not to believe everything she says there as she was a very honest individual.

Also: I do plan to watch this as the whole thing intrigues me, but thought I'd wait for it to leak online in edited form as watching Red Dwarf the other night reignited my hatred of adverts.