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Labour Party discussion: "Shouting Starmer Starmer Starmer mega mega white man!"

Started by Blinder Data, May 04, 2020, 05:28:45 PM

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Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 09:02:06 PM
Can someone explain to me how this is bad for the left? I'm unclear on what STV would change in terms of the result, and generally prefer it to FPTP usually.

Depends on the makeup of the candidates. If the left were only throwing in one strong candidate they thought would win, the right only need to throw in several shitheels.

greencalx


holyzombiejesus

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 09:02:06 PM
Can someone explain to me how this is bad for the left? I'm unclear on what STV would change in terms of the result, and generally prefer it to FPTP usually.

Doesn't it also set a precedent by allowing rule changes without conference approval?

pancreas

How would you feel about the Tories changing elections so urban constituencies were STV and rural ones were FTPT?

That is what the problem is. It is only the CLP NEC places which are being done in this way.

Akehurst is going to get on the NEC.

NoSleep

It's clear to me that Warmer is firmly behind Nuneaton Focus Group Matters More. He's seen that being a little bit racist will make him more electable.

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 09:02:06 PM
Can someone explain to me how this is bad for the left? I'm unclear on what STV would change in terms of the result, and generally prefer it to FPTP usually.

It makes slating more difficult. At present you place 9 ticks against the candidates you want on - so if you're voting with a slate, you put ticks next to all nine of the candidates on that slate.

With STV, you express a preference from 1-9. Sio Momentum or Labour First can tell you who to put your 1 next to, but they can't give you a route map telling you how to mark your ballot paper in such a way that will get all nine of their candidates elected. It makes it to all intents and purposes certain (given recent internal results) that the make up of the CLP section will be split between factions, rather than one getting it all.   

olliebean

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 08:53:01 PMHowever, if this has gone down really badly with black people overall (have no idea if that's accurate) I would accept that he's screwed up as I'm speaking as a white person and my immediate thoughts on seeing the interview aren't really important in comparison to those more directly affected by this.

I don't know if it has or if it hasn't, but I really can't see how it could possibly have gone down well. He said he'd have no truck with anything BLM says. Anything.

Quote from: holyzombiejesus on June 30, 2020, 09:53:22 PM
Doesn't it also set a precedent by allowing rule changes without conference approval?

I don't think so, but that's a question that may be put to lawyers.

The present wording of the rule book is:

Division III (CLPs) shall consist of nine
members, at least four of whom shall
be women, to be nominated by at least
five CLPs. The ballot for these places
shall be conducted among all eligible
individual members of the Party by
means of a national one-member-onevote postal ballot conducted to
guidelines laid down by the NEC.

The last six words would seem to be what the NEC are using to justify the change.

gib

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 08:53:01 PM
I agree with the first two paragraphs, I'd prefer a stronger message of solidarity, this is something Corbyn was great at, but the use of the word moment in addition to movement has been taken in a very uncharitable way, it seemed to me to be emphasising that the floyd murder has generated an international moment of anger and solidarity internationally. I don't see why it's dismissive in itself. It's too neutral and not as positive as the statement he made previously which does make reference to structural racism in this country and having our own lessons to learn. He seems to be worried about being linked to the 'defund the police stuff', and is dismissive of that. I don't agree with him. He seems to struggle with stuff like this and could do with taking a leaf out of Corbyn's book in his ability to show genuine compassion in situations like this. I expected him to dismiss 'defund the police' but it would be better to emphasise what Labour would do to improve things and invest in prevention etc.

However, if this has gone down really badly with black people overall (have no idea if that's accurate) I would accept that he's screwed up as I'm speaking as a white person and my immediate thoughts on seeing the interview aren't really important in comparison to those more directly affected by this.

trying hard here to imagine Starmer showing genuine compassion but it's a struggle

Sebastian Cobb

He could probably overuse the word in place of not actually having any?

thugler

Quote from: olliebean on June 30, 2020, 10:17:36 PM
I don't know if it has or if it hasn't, but I really can't see how it could possibly have gone down well. He said he'd have no truck with anything BLM says. Anything.

This goes against the statement he's made before though. I'm not sure that was the intended meaning.


thugler

Quote from: gib on June 30, 2020, 10:21:06 PM
trying hard here to imagine Starmer showing genuine compassion but it's a struggle

It's not difficult to feel compassion but to get it across in a sincere and dignified way is something Corbyn managed again and again. Part of that is him being a very genuine nice bloke, but I'm not convinced that all the other Labour mp's are pure evil heartless bastards.

thugler

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on June 30, 2020, 10:29:48 PM
It's almost as if he'll say anything isn't it?

It's pretty obvious he will 'have truck' with some of the stuff BLM says so this is either an error or he's an idiot who changes his mind on whether racism is bad or not.

thugler

Quote from: Wacky Homemade Badges on June 30, 2020, 10:14:41 PM
It makes slating more difficult. At present you place 9 ticks against the candidates you want on - so if you're voting with a slate, you put ticks next to all nine of the candidates on that slate.

With STV, you express a preference from 1-9. Sio Momentum or Labour First can tell you who to put your 1 next to, but they can't give you a route map telling you how to mark your ballot paper in such a way that will get all nine of their candidates elected. It makes it to all intents and purposes certain (given recent internal results) that the make up of the CLP section will be split between factions, rather than one getting it all.

Okay i sort've get it now. But that would seem to be a problem for all of the slates then? I suppose if they were going to get none in and this could see them manage getting 1 in that would be bad.

pancreas

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 10:34:30 PM
It's pretty obvious he will 'have truck' with some of the stuff BLM says so this is either an error or he's an idiot who changes his mind on whether racism is bad or not.

He thought it would make him look good by denigrating the upstart woke millennials. It's what the adult-in-the-room would do. He doesn't give a shit if that makes him look racist or not. He's playing to John in Cheltenham.

Yeah but from Starmer's point of view he already has a lot of votes already. If there's an issue where he and Momentum are at loggerheads, a couple of CLP votes against him isn't a problem, but a bloc of nine could be.

Sorry, should have pressed quote - that was in response to thugler.

Bernice

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 10:29:04 PM
This goes against the statement he's made before though. I'm not sure that was the intended meaning.

The statement made before was an easy performative signal, whereas the latter statement was in response to a specific question on policy. I would invite you to draw your own conclusipns

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 10:34:30 PM
It's pretty obvious he will 'have truck' with some of the stuff BLM says so this is either an error or he's an idiot who changes his mind on whether racism is bad or not.

Kier Stobart more like. Master of bullshit haulage.


thugler

Quote from: Wacky Homemade Badges on June 30, 2020, 10:40:59 PM
Yeah but from Starmer's point of view he already has a lot of votes already. If there's an issue where he and Momentum are at loggerheads, a couple of CLP votes against him isn't a problem, but a bloc of nine could be.

Sorry, should have pressed quote - that was in response to thugler.

Okay I get it now I think. Thanks

peanutbutter

RE: the NEC stuff, where do I find out if I can vote and what for, if anything? I got totally bemused by all the emails and texts and shit I got during the leadership campaign (just found a big poster of Keir Starmer in my mail a few days ago). Right now I'm hearing loads about the NEC's but haven't gotten any info about what to do, if anything.

pancreas

Quote from: peanutbutter on June 30, 2020, 11:01:57 PM
RE: the NEC stuff, where do I find out if I can vote and what for, if anything? I got totally bemused by all the emails and texts and shit I got during the leadership campaign (just found a big poster of Keir Starmer in my mail a few days ago). Right now I'm hearing loads about the NEC's but haven't gotten any info about what to do, if anything.

There will be a momentum/united left slate. Vote for that.

peanutbutter

Quote from: pancreas on June 30, 2020, 11:18:48 PM
There will be a momentum/united left slate. Vote for that.
Where? Is there stuff mailed out to me to send back?


pancreas

Quote from: peanutbutter on June 30, 2020, 11:20:17 PM
Where? Is there stuff mailed out to me to send back?

No not yet. The Momentum NCG election will be announced soon and I expect Forward Momentum will take it. Then they will organise a united left slate with other left organisations.

Someone will start a thread when the NEC elections are announced and we should have a slate ready by then. Assuming the various left factions can show some fucking discipline. But I suspect, this time, they will.

gib

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 10:32:56 PM
It's not difficult to feel compassion but to get it across in a sincere and dignified way is something Corbyn managed again and again. Part of that is him being a very genuine nice bloke, but I'm not convinced that all the other Labour mp's are pure evil heartless bastards.

for sure, nevertheless it's not easy to imagine KS being convincingly emotional about anything

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Wacky Homemade Badges on June 30, 2020, 10:14:41 PM
Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 09:02:06 PM
Can someone explain to me how this is bad for the left? I'm unclear on what STV would change in terms of the result, and generally prefer it to FPTP usually.
It makes slating more difficult. At present you place 9 ticks against the candidates you want on - so if you're voting with a slate, you put ticks next to all nine of the candidates on that slate.

With STV, you express a preference from 1-9. Sio Momentum or Labour First can tell you who to put your 1 next to, but they can't give you a route map telling you how to mark your ballot paper in such a way that will get all nine of their candidates elected. It makes it to all intents and purposes certain (given recent internal results) that the make up of the CLP section will be split between factions, rather than one getting it all.

Quote from: Wacky Homemade Badges on June 30, 2020, 10:19:57 PM
Quote from: holyzombiejesus on June 30, 2020, 09:53:22 PM
Doesn't it also set a precedent by allowing rule changes without conference approval?
I don't think so, but that's a question that may be put to lawyers.

The present wording of the rule book is:

Division III (CLPs) shall consist of nine
members, at least four of whom shall
be women, to be nominated by at least
five CLPs. The ballot for these places
shall be conducted among all eligible
individual members of the Party by
means of a national one-member-onevote postal ballot conducted to
guidelines laid down by the NEC.

The last six words would seem to be what the NEC are using to justify the change.

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 10:37:51 PM
Okay i sort've get it now. But that would seem to be a problem for all of the slates then? I suppose if they were going to get none in and this could see them manage getting 1 in that would be bad.
Quote from: Wacky Homemade Badges on June 30, 2020, 10:40:59 PM
Yeah but from Starmer's point of view he already has a lot of votes already. If there's an issue where he and Momentum are at loggerheads, a couple of CLP votes against him isn't a problem, but a bloc of nine could be.

Sorry, should have pressed quote - that was in response to thugler.

Neat, thanks.

idunnosomename

i'd rather stick a dozen dildos up my ass than campaign for Sir Haircut now

ZoyzaSorris

Quote from: thugler on June 30, 2020, 10:43:32 PM
Okay I get it now I think. Thanks

It would have been nice if you and your ilk had got it a bit sooner, then we wouldn't see a bunch of right-wing charlatans bending the rules to reverse the last five years and change the rules so it can never happen again.