Topic: Labour Party discussion: "Shouting Starmer Starmer Starmer mega mega white man!"

[holyzombiejesus]

Is the GS not an elected position?

I have no idea.

Also, what's the current make up of the NEC? It was reported that the board for the enquiry was backed by the NEC by a narrow margin (20:18 or something like that) so is it already under the control of the right?

[Buelligan]

I believe it's an appointed position.  The decision being made by the NEC.

I must admit I am losing patience with Starmer's friends.  Very rapidly.

When Jeremy Corbyn first became leader in 2015, the then general secretary Iain, now Lord, McNicol had been appointed under the previous leadership - and there were widely reported tensions between the new leader's office and party HQ.

Keir Starmer's team did not want this repeated - but it is difficult to force out an incumbent who is determined not to go.

So before Ms Formby's intentions became known, one of Sir Keir's supporters said privately that an inquiry into the leaking of an internal document - which contained confidential staff messages - could provide the mechanism for removing her.

That someone would view that leaked material in that way, whilst still considering Oldknow, speaks volumes.  Absolutely everything that was wrong with the Labour Party, the stuff that destroyed the Scottish vote, coming right back to life.  What is wrong with these people (I know what is wrong with these people)?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52529765

[Blinder Data]

"Keir's supporter" = an MP who nominated him and probably hates Corbyn. He/she doesn't speak for Starmer, so best to ignore.

I think it would be better everyone could dial down the overreaction to anything Starmer does/doesn't do. Sorry I'm like a broken record, but it's like the blue ticks in the first few weeks of Corbyn's leadership on here. It is v early days and too early to write anything off.

If we're lucky we can wake up to this headline in May 2024:
"Starmer creates Lab-Lib coalition government after dull but effective election campaign"

[greencalx]

I'll ask again. After what period of inaction does it become "acceptable" to criticise lack of action? 1 month (already there), 3 months, a year?

Does the answer change if, for example, we are facing a crisis that for once demands the qualifier "unprecedented"?

[NoSleep]

Is the GS not an elected position?

Elected by the NEC as I recall.

[NoSleep]

Sorry I'm like a broken record, but it's like the blue ticks in the first few weeks of Corbyn's leadership on here.

FFS; how is that like to like? For one thing the blue ticks are a bunch of privileged cunts with no experience of politics as it affects the people at the bottom of the pile. We're just a few people in a small corner of the internet with genuine fears about the new direction the Labour Party is headed (one where there is no real alternative to the Tories).

[holyzombiejesus]

If we're lucky we can wake up to this headline in May 2024:
"Starmer creates Lab-Lib coalition government after dull but effective election campaign"

Oh Icarus.

[Buelligan]

"Keir's supporter" = an MP who nominated him and probably hates Corbyn. He/she doesn't speak for Starmer, so best to ignore.

I think it would be better everyone could dial down the overreaction to anything Starmer does/doesn't do. Sorry I'm like a broken record, but it's like the blue ticks in the first few weeks of Corbyn's leadership on here. It is v early days and too early to write anything off.

If we're lucky we can wake up to this headline in May 2024:
"Starmer creates Lab-Lib coalition government after dull but effective election campaign"

What happens with the foodbanks?  What happens with the NHS?  Having some sort of upper middle class luvvie government that ignores and esploits the poor and marginalised is what we have now.  Just scribbling out Tory and writing Labour over the top only serves those at the top of Labour - meanwhile ordinary people suffer.

[holyzombiejesus]

I don't think Starmer is necessarily tory-lite. As I said, his business sec was writing about the importance of nationalisation and GND over the weekend and has been talking of how to move to a 4 day week on his podcast ( I know...). I do think some of the needling is OTT and whilst I'm as frustrated as anyone with the lack of action, I'm not sure what form this 'action' should take. It was never going to be Starmer's style to give out verbal smackdowns, as much as I'd like to see that kind of thing. I dunno. I see what Blinder says about the left coming across like blue ticks, the focus seems to be on criticising and mocking Starmer (I've done it) rather than taking any more balanced view. I've seen stuff on Twitter laughing at how awkward he looked at Pride; that was coming from fellow members on the left and I thought it needless nad very similar to the way people attacked Corbyn for wearing socks with sandals and whatnot.

I think part of the problem with Starmer isn't so much what he's doing or not doing but the way that people I mistrust immensely are so happy with him. It's particularly bad when you consider how those very same people consistently attacked Jeremy. I reckon I'll be sad about the missed opportunity of a Labour government under Corbyn for the rest of my life and to see those that undermined and sneered throughout his 3 or 4 years in charge now celebrating and writing/ tweeting about how forensic Starmer is, is really really fucking galling.

I'm probably going to stay and fight and campaign, albeit with a knot in my stomach and little joy. I'd rate Starmer's performance so far as about 4, there'll be days when it dips to zero and some when it's much higher, and I want (us) to try and keep a sense of proportion.

[NoSleep]

I dunno. I see what Blinder says about the left coming across like blue ticks, the focus seems to be on criticising and mocking Starmer (I've done it) rather than taking any more balanced view.

If only there was something substantial to balance our view.

[holyzombiejesus]

If only there was something substantial to balance our view.

You were going to slate the guy whatever he did, admit it. You're the one who said he'd engineered the party's Brexit position in order to lose the election, so he could install himself as leader, someone else said they "despised him" as soon as they knew who he was ffs. It's not compulsory to post on here slating him. I'm underwhelmed to say the least but if you go off what's posted on here you'd think he's been disastrous and he hasn't been (yet). He's been a month in the job and the party are in an unprecedented and very difficult position against a phenomenally popular government. I'm not particularly hopeful that he'll win me over but at least give him a fucking chance instead of constantly sniping.

[Johnny Yesno]

I think we'd be more impressed if Starmer ever had anything to say about these kinds of things:

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,78944.msg4183376.html#msg4183376

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,78944.msg4184310.html#msg4184310

Let's see if he mentions any of this over the next couple of days, eh.

[Buelligan]

I think part of the problem with Starmer isn't so much what he's doing or not doing but the way that people I mistrust immensely are so happy with him. It's particularly bad when you consider how those very same people consistently attacked Jeremy. I reckon I'll be sad about the missed opportunity of a Labour government under Corbyn for the rest of my life and to see those that undermined and sneered throughout his 3 or 4 years in charge now celebrating and writing/ tweeting about how forensic Starmer is, is really really fucking galling.

I'm probably going to stay and fight and campaign, albeit with a knot in my stomach and little joy. I'd rate Starmer's performance so far as about 4, there'll be days when it dips to zero and some when it's much higher, and I want (us) to try and keep a sense of proportion.

This.  And that's what the problem is.  The look is nothing.  Jezzer wasn't my look, he was my heart.  My soul.  My compass.

I don't care about the box.  I care about its contents.  And who tied the ribbon on top.  That matters a lot.

I don't think anyone's said Starmer engineered the Brexit position so's we could lose the election.  What people, me included, think is entirely possible is that he and his friends, used the Brexit situation and their influence over it, to add to Corbyn's (and thus, Labour's) woes. 

There were times when Starmer could've dialled it all back and it would've presented a far more united position.  He and his pals and others allowed Brexit to divide the left, I don't think there can be any doubt about that.  And I wouldn't mind it so much if he'd stand by it now.  Talk about it now.  But now, it's as if none of it ever mattered.  It went a long way to losing us the last election, less than six months ago, and now, even immediately after, not a peep.  I don't like people who don't stand by their positions, not unless they apologise for being wrong first.

[holyzombiejesus]

What people, me included, think is entirely possible is that he and his friends, used the Brexit situation and their influence over it, to add to Corbyn's (and thus, Labour's) woes. 

There were times when Starmer could've dialled it all back and it would've presented a far more united position.  He and his pals and others allowed Brexit to divide the left, I don't think there can be any doubt about that.  And I wouldn't mind it so much if he'd stand by it now.  Talk about it now.  But now, it's as if none of it ever mattered.  It went a long way to losing us the last election, less than six months ago, and now, even immediately after, not a peep.  I don't like people who don't stand by their positions, not unless they apologise for being wrong first.

Look, we've gone over this umpteen times before. Starmer's "friends" were, amongst others, the vast vast majority of the 500,000 membership. Why on earth would he reheat the cold sick that's Brexit?

The decision was made, regarding our position, by the NEC, the membership and agreed with on here by the vast majority (can't remember any dissenting voices). It was really the only viable position for us to take. Brexit fucked us, whichever way we went. Why would he pick that scab, especially in the middle of the pandemic?

Say the party had a shadow cabinet that contained people who lived in caves and you were Brexit Secretary over the last few years. What would your policy have been?

[Buelligan]

It's not a problem with the policy.  My problem was (similar to my problem with Clive Lewis) speaking out of turn publicly, knowing that the stuff he was saying was dynamite and never rowing back on it. 

As we all know, the last election was critical, not just about Brexit but about the whole direction of Britain and it's impact on Europe and the world.  I said more than once, I'd accept Brexit with a happy heart if it meant a Labour government with Corbyn as PM.  That election was so critical that even issues like Brexit had to take second place to the primary goal of Labour winning.  Everyone had to give something for the common good.  But Starmer didn't.  No one can deny that Starmer's words gave the media and the Tories a stick to beat Corbyn with and they used it at every opportunity.  We all saw it.

He did what he did, it was, at the very least, very poorly judged and it cost us all, immensely.  The least he could do now is step up and own it.  Bollocking No Sleep about finding it galling, as I do, is not the answer.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/24/keir-starmer-mixed-feelings-jeremy-corbyn-neutral-brexit-stance-labour

[NoSleep]

You were going to slate the guy whatever he did, admit it. You're the one who said he'd engineered the party's Brexit position in order to lose the election, so he could install himself as leader, someone else said they "despised him" as soon as they knew who he was ffs. It's not compulsory to post on here slating him. I'm underwhelmed to say the least but if you go off what's posted on here you'd think he's been disastrous and he hasn't been (yet). He's been a month in the job and the party are in an unprecedented and very difficult position against a phenomenally popular government. I'm not particularly hopeful that he'll win me over but at least give him a fucking chance instead of constantly sniping.

I've given him a chance (despite trusting him not an inch) and... nothing, so far. Lots to be fearful and disappointed in, however. All that's left is, as pancreas says, is the forthcoming NEC vote, and that'll be it for the chances that what Corbyn started might hold some ground.

[holyzombiejesus]

I've given him a chance and... nothing, so far. Lots to be fearful and disappointed in, however.

Yep, in a month there's been nothing really positive, a couple of negatives and some major things to worry about, Will wait and see how those pan out before kicking off.

[NoSleep]

I can voice my fears if I choose. I'll give it until the NEC elections, then we're back to Russell Brand politics (nobody worth voting for). I have no trust in Starmer.

[holyzombiejesus]

I can voice my fears if I choose. I'll give it until the NEC elections, then we're back to Russell Brand politics (nobody worth voting for). I have no trust in Starmer.

Course you can. Although this - then we're back to Russell Brand politics (nobody worth voting for) - is just fucking idiotic.

[Buelligan]

Pfft.  Dunno.  Wish I felt more confident about it.  When was the last time you heard a politician say something and you thought, You are so fucking right!1!!!  Yep, and I can probably guess who it was.  Sadly, that's a sign of something I think.

[NoSleep]

It's idiotic that so many members trust Starmer to lead the party. I cannot trust him and can only hope that the membership takes some pause and ensures the left still have sway of the NEC. I foresee a Labour party led by Starmer losing in any future election for the same reasons that Miliband did (their pointlessness).

[holyzombiejesus]

Pfft.  Dunno.  Wish I felt more confident about it.  When was the last time you heard a politician say something and you thought, You are so fucking right!1!!!  Yep, and I can probably guess who it was.  Sadly, that's a sign of something I think.

How about some of the Socialist Campaign Group, like Nichols, Whittome or Sultana? Even Ed Milliband saying we need nationalisation and a GND?

[Buelligan]

We definitely have to keep faith, wait and hope.  But that's what it feels like now.

No one said building this pyramid was going to be easy, mind.

[Johnny Yesno]

I can voice my fears if I choose. I'll give it until the NEC elections, then we're back to Russell Brand politics (nobody worth voting for). I have no trust in Starmer.

I share your misgivings but have you actually seen a Russell Brand video lately? I mean, I like some of what he says but overall he's an idiot hippy. If I suggested the youth take their cues from anyone at all famous in the 2015 GE, it was Sleaford Mods, not fucking Russell Brand.

[NoSleep]

I wasn't actually embracing the Brand brand (have no idea what he's been up to), just using it as shorthand for nothing worth voting for (once again).

[holyzombiejesus]

I wasn't actually embracing the Brand brand (have no idea what he's been up to), just using it as shorthand for nothing worth voting for (once again).

Again, absolute fucking idiocy. In 2015, when Ed Milliband was leader up against Cameron (for example) we had everything to vote for. It may not have been Corbyn-esque levels of game-changing but the vulnerable in this country's lives would have been immeasurably better if more people had got off their arses and voted Labour. It's stupid fatuous fucking bullshit like you've come out with that helped to ensure we're utterly fucked now. To paraphrase someone on here, any Labour government is necessary, if not sufficient.

[NoSleep]

What about the ridiculous pandering to "electability" via a fucking tombstone and mugs and agreement with the Tories on austerity? I see a similar direction via Keir "Weathercock" Starmer. Labour got a right pounding by the MSM in the 2015 election, too (not helped by lukewarm appearances); at least under Corbyn we knew that we stood as a real alternative.

[Pink Gregory]

Pfft.  Dunno.  Wish I felt more confident about it.  When was the last time you heard a politician say something and you thought, You are so fucking right!1!!!  Yep, and I can probably guess who it was.  Sadly, that's a sign of something I think.

You should read the Tribune more often Buellers, probably the only place you'll find writing from left Labour MPs

Cheers me up anyway

[Buelligan]

I know.  And it's so easy to get down-hearted or worse, fight our comrades and we all take our turn at it, I'm sure.  It's very important to remember the struggle and sacrifice that's got us here, not to take it for granted or throw it away.  Keep pushing on, keep the faith, it's the only way to get where we're going and we will get there.  Just a bit disappointed right now.

[pancreas]

Again, absolute fucking idiocy. In 2015, when Ed Milliband was leader up against Cameron (for example) we had everything to vote for. It may not have been Corbyn-esque levels of game-changing but the vulnerable in this country's lives would have been immeasurably better if more people had got off their arses and voted Labour. It's stupid fatuous fucking bullshit like you've come out with that helped to ensure we're utterly fucked now. To paraphrase someone on here, any Labour government is necessary, if not sufficient.

I'm becoming more Twed like on this count. It is certainly not sufficient or necessary for stuff to get worse, only in a slightly slower way. There were periods of New Labour where that was what was happening—Iraq and PFI for two good examples. If we can't use our time in government to make stuff better, then I think it would be better to hold fire until we can. Otherwise we'll perennially be regarded as All The Same and that does no-one any good. It will be necessary to look at the offer in a few years' time and make a decision then as to whether it is worth campaigning for Labour, or even voting for it.