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The Last of Us 2 (Coming June 19th)

Started by Sin Agog, May 06, 2020, 11:54:15 PM

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AsparagusTrevor

Quote from: Bazooka on July 04, 2020, 06:20:06 PM
What did you noobs think of the infected boss fight in the hospital?

Great concept, and absolutely disgusting. The model viewer calls it Rat King which is appropriate. I liked the infected fused to the walls too, some good jump-scares from those.

popcorn

Quote from: AsparagusTrevor on July 04, 2020, 10:52:53 PM
Great concept, and absolutely disgusting. The model viewer calls it Rat King which is appropriate.

Yeah it's cool. It's not just your standard "ooh what if we made an especially big horrid monster with loads of eyeballs and teeth", there's a grander, sort of logical concept behind it that makes it much more horrible and coherent as an idea.

magval

Another great example of that mood and tension you mentioned being created, I was really dreading going down there.

popcorn

#213
There's also something really great about being given permission to just play it as an action game. Most of the rest of the game you're either stealthing around or, when the action is kicking off, wondering if you should reload a checkpoint. With the hospital boss, you're armed to the teeth, there's nowhere to hide, time to go fuckin' mental. It's cathartic, and even though it's stressful because it's a boss, in another way it's a load off, because there's no pressure over being discovered or what tactics to use. Just shoot the fucker.

It's a shame because the action works really well and there are more ingredients in the soup than many players will ever discover. Like, people share videos of Ellie doing aerial takedowns, going omg I didn't know you could do this. But I don't really think that's a great result, that there's this fun feature in your game that most of your audience will never discover.

Sheffield Wednesday

I can't stop thinking about this game, even if I can't quite summon the will to put myself through thirty hours of stress quite so soon after my first playthrough. I reckon there are about twenty separate, genuinely memorable encounters.

brat-sampson

And Fin.

FULL SPOILERS

Spoiler alert
The second half of this game... man. Wow. I mean, the whole game is fascinating, but just, after a slow start and having to deal with new characters that I really was not warming to... I mean, honestly, as much as the Aquarium flashback was meant to be endearing, I was having a real struggle with it as I just had zero love for either character. Even after the game, Young Owen is still a fucknut to me. Proper Legend Gary style Jarhead Dudebro Couldn't care less about him. Older Owen I could see going to bat for, but the flashback one? Nah, didn't like him. Same with Manny. Gets laid a lot. Coooooool. Do one. So here I am at the climax of Ellie's story, things getting real real, and I'm stuck having to play as an antagonist, surrounded by assholes I don't like. Opening drive is nice, Mel is fine. Fight zombos, fight scars etc. So far so the same. Oh, I gotta now go rescue Owen? Ooooh. I don't even like Owen, and I've just had 3 'days' of gazing at a distant building and having to trek there, so excuse me if I'm not super-stoked to go do it again.

But then, capture. Horror. Yuna. Lev. Violence. Darkness. I'm playing the most interesting set-piece of the game so far, and Ellie's not even in it! Not the last time I'll get that feeling, either. I don't know how deliberate it was, but I feel like they must have known. Ellie's half of this game is vastly more what you would 'expect' from a Last of Us game. Ok, there's a boat bit, and that empty side of Seattle you can explore, and I get that, well, it's the first half, so difficulty-curve-wise that has to be taken into account, but still, it's encounter, scavenge, encounter, scavenge, VIOLENT ELLIE, scavenge scavenge, encounter, encounter...etc. It's a good gameplay loop and I never got bored at the time, but fuck me, the second half throws it into sharp fucking relief, especially days two and three. Maybe I'm being harsh, but yeah, Abby's half of the game... it's better, right? It has the Bigger setpieces, the Actual Boss Fights, the more interesting locations, more appealing motivation, the works. By the time we end up back at the theater... I don't even know want I want anymore, but I know I won't like what's coming.

Epilogue section is a whole other discussion. It's conflicting, because I understand why she did it even as I didn't like her doing it and really didn't like doing her doing it. Rattlers kinda came out of nowhere and for me fell into an awkward camp of not having enough buildup but at the same time already taking up too much space. It's a random side-story going on that you don't know the players of and just barge into and disrupt before leaving again. A little clunky really. They're only there to get Abby where she needs to be for the finale. Definite MGS4 vibes here, btw, and not in a good way. Not a fun fight thematically, obviously, and not a good fight in terms of gameplay either. It's only there because this is a game. Might have been better as a cutscene. Not sure.
[close]

Not sure there are meant to be any deeper lessons here. Revenge is found and found wanting. Letting go is hard. Forgiveness is hard, and after a time impossible, because you don't know when the person will no longer be there to forgive. Violence begets violence begets... None of this is new, but fuck it, why should it be? It's not-newness is the point. Another town? Another gang. It's nothing new. This was a fascinating and brave game, with so many stand-out moments, scenes, shots, faces, etc. I need to play something else next. The violence needs to end, for a while.

Also, Imma link the Girlfriend Reviews video for this, because it's more of an analysis than a review this time, and it's a really good one at that. Also full spoilers, but says a lot in a short time, and says it very well.

Harpo Speaks

Quote
Spoiler alert
Not a fun fight thematically, obviously, and not a good fight in terms of gameplay either. It's only there because this is a game. Might have been better as a cutscene. Not sure.
[close]


Spoiler alert
I do like that it is a complete subversion of what a dramatic final showdown normally looks and feels like in games, and probably a completely different fight to the one Ellie was imagining when she set back out for Santa Barbara.
[close]

Regards to a couple of things popcorn mentioned, (and yeah I suppose we keep the spoiler tags unless there's any appetite for a spoilery spin-off thread):

Quote
Spoiler alert
but I don't think it was out of character at this point in the saga because we're seeing Joel at a different time in his life now. He's been living as part of a settled, trusted community for several years, he's become a (sort of) father again, he (like me) is endeared towards Abby because he's just survived a massive zombie attack with her. And in a way it's this softening of his heart that is his downfall.
[close]

Spoiler alert
I agree, there are some mitigating factors there - they saved Abby, Abby helped them fight off the horde, Abby tells them where to go for safety and shelter, then the group stationed there lets them in and attacks the infected that were following etc. Abby already knows their names before they even get to the Mansion, Tommy introduces them both just after Abby is saved, so it would be pointless for him to withhold his name at that point. It's also established in the logbooks in game that people rescued on patrol are taken into town, and in the final Joel and Ellie scene that people come through the town to trade so there isn't hostility to outsiders as a default. I did also wonder if there was anything in the fact that there were women in the group, as I don't recall there being any female Hunters in the first game for example, though that may not be something that is canon.
[close]

They could have tweaked the scene slightly to negate some of this criticism, but I agree it works dramatically. You could also argue that if they were that interested in negating criticism then they wouldn't have released the game they have. Because man, it's been a while since I've seen this level of toxicity around a game.

Quote
Spoiler alert
There's an awful lot of being hit on the head and blacking out in this story.
[close]

First one had it's fair share of that too:

Spoiler alert
Joel and Ellie hit the rocks in the water and blackout

Joel blacks out due to being impaled on a spiiiiiike

David choking Ellie until she blacks out

David and Ellie fight, she gets knocked out on the table

Joel knocked out by the gun while doing CPR on Ellie etc
[close]

I'm finding the conversation around the sequel really interesting, because there seem to be substantial number of people citing criticisms that you can easily equally apply to the first game, but it's not being examined in the same forensic way. And by forensic way, I mean Cinema Sins-level pedantry.

Zetetic

Quote from: brat-sampson on July 06, 2020, 06:58:08 AM
Violence begets violence begets... None of this is new, but fuck it, why should it be?
Because in the context that the game has been released into, and the context that the authors have explicitly provided, "Violence begets violence" amounts to "Stop hitting yourself".

popcorn

Quote from: Zetetic on July 10, 2020, 12:29:31 AM
Because in the context that the game has been released into, and the context that the authors have explicitly provided, "Violence begets violence" amounts to "Stop hitting yourself".

I have no idea what this means. You're beyond us all Zetetic

Zetetic

"I can't breathe". Well, violence begets violence.

"That would be a violation of international law and imperil the foundations of the peace process". Well, violence begets violence.

Lancet survey (March 2003 – July 2006): 654,965 excess deaths (95% CI: 392,979–942,636). Well, violence begets violence.


Zetetic

Aged 32, blunt-force trauma to the chest. Well, violence begets violence.

Zetetic

"I can't breathe", but in a British hospital. Well, violence begets violence.

popcorn


Zetetic

What violence is it actually about?

C_Larence

Just finished.

Spoiler alert
I agree with everyone who said the game is too long. There were at least three points where it could have ended without any detriment to the story (On the farm the first time, when Ellie is sitting in the sea after Abby and Lev sail away, and at the end of the final flashback with Joel). However, there were some very effective and moving moments surrounding that final slog. Dina quietly humming Take On Me as you walk downstairs to find her in the kitchen, Ellie's PTSD flashback/jumpscare in the barn, the next scene where she turns Tommy down despite the player having seen that she is still suffering, the dance and aforementioned flashback to her conversation with Joel afterwards. All the above made me either well up or full on sob, and it's just a shame that there was an hour long machine gun mission tacked on amongst them.

I was also very moved by the space shuttle scene earlier in the game, but then felt Abby's later aquarium flashback was too similar without adding anything new. I suppose it could be the writers trying to sell that Abby and Ellie really aren't that different after all, but the whole section just felt tautologous. Apart from the aquarium sections I mostly enjoyed Abby's half of the story. I never particularly warmed to her as a character (even going as far as to let Ellie kill her multiple times in their theatre fight) but for the most part her friends were fun enough. I personally liked Manny, he was charming. My girlfriend played it before me and asked me if "I'd got to the part where Manny dies yet". I hadn't. The joys of being in a relationship. I don't have any issue with Ellie's choice at the end, I think it was perfectly realistic and reasonable. Killing Abby wouldn't bring Joel back, and she'll never get to forgive him, but she still has a chance to forgive Abby.

The foreshadowing throughout was pretty good, and usually subtle. We find out Mel is pregnant with Owen's child very early on in the game, but it's easy to forget until Ellie finds out after killing her. During that scene we overhear that Abby has gone to an island nobody has ever come back from, and it later comes up that Seraphites live on an island, so it's obvious what's going to happen next if you've been paying attention. My girlfriend says you can hear two Seraphites talking about Lev hours before you ever meet him, but I didn't notice that. Speaking of the Scars/Seraphites, the first encounter with them is amazing. The whistling is creepy, and an example of the game's incredible sound design.

I haven't delved too deeply into online criticisms. The backlash is so predictable. Whenever a game gets too much praise from critics, especially when it's as self serious as Schindler's List comparisons then it becomes inevitable that people will go out of their way to hate it and defy the consensus. The toxic voices will always make the most noise, but they are powerless so it's funny to watch them cry because a woman has muscles. Men will really do the paleo diet and say nobody outside of civilisation could be strong. My girlfriend who I've now mentioned three times in this post played the game completely unaware of the spoilers or the controversy, and I wish I could have done the same.

Liked the final twist that "If I Ever Were To Lose You" was actually about Ellie's fingers the whole time. Thought that was reminiscent of the old Twilight Zone episode Time Enough At Last.
[close]

I'm off now to write a note explaining that the code to my safe is my dog's birthday, which I've handily circled on my calendar.


Zetetic

It's certainly interesting, if mostly unpleasant, to see more stuff about Druckmann's views. I'd avoided that for the most part, to try to see the game for itself.

Quote from: C_Larence on July 15, 2020, 10:34:11 PMThe toxic voices will always make the most noise, but they are powerless so it's funny to watch them cry because a woman has muscles.

Is that what the criticism in this thread has been about?

C_Larence

Quote from: Zetetic on July 15, 2020, 10:54:08 PM
It's certainly interesting, if mostly unpleasant, to see more stuff about Druckmann's views. I'd avoided that for the most part, to try to see the game for itself.

Is that what the criticism in this thread has been about?

No, the discussion here has avoided that, but there is a very vocal minority of toxic gamers out there. People like this:



Harpo Speaks

Quote from: Zetetic on July 15, 2020, 10:54:08 PM
Is that what the criticism in this thread has been about?

Waypoint have done a couple of Spoilercasts on this game that may interest you Zetetic. I found some of their takes quite odd, and they get several details about the game incorrect, but I felt like they were touching upon some wider issues they had with it that haven't been discussed as much in other games media. Be warned though, they are long and I did find the relentless snark and sniping at the game a bit wearying, so I was listening in chunks.

TrenterPercenter

Finished it a couple of days ago.

It is an excellent game and experience that has set a new bar in graphical world building.  Very rare for me to finish a game nowadays and I took my time but kept coming back.  It is brilliant and up there with bloodborne for best game of the PS4 (thus far)

Ignore all of the hyper-critical criticisms they are frankly deranged and detached from any serious discussion on the game.  The characters and the story is great, the fact people have a problem with these things much more in the melee of general discussion on the these topics and nothing to do with the game.

Anyone that doesn't mind a bit of violence should play it as soon as they can.


Bazooka

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on July 16, 2020, 01:22:41 PM
Finished it a couple of days ago.

It is an excellent game and experience that has set a new bar in graphical world building.  Very rare for me to finish a game nowadays and I took my time but kept coming back.  It is brilliant and up there with bloodborne for best game of the PS4 (thus far)

Ignore all of the hyper-critical criticisms they are frankly deranged and detached from any serious discussion on the game.  The characters and the story is great, the fact people have a problem with these things much more in the melee of general discussion on the these topics and nothing to do with the game.

Anyone that doesn't mind a bit of violence should play it as soon as they can.

Indeed, and for all the games out there, there is some credit due with the characters and story, because how often does a game get so much discussion going about its story and characters. I play a lot of JRPGs yet half the time I couldn't give a fuck about the story or characters because it's all just two dimensional and formulaic. With TLOU you at least get something chunky on top of the gameplay, which is very rare, but it's helps having expensive motion capture available etc.

Sexton Brackets Drugbust

Finished it today. There is so much that is fantastic about the game, but it's also deeply flawed.

By the midpoint, its story becomes so sprawling, episodic and unfocused that it felt like a bit of a slog to finish - it would have benefited greatly from a more ruthless story editor.

The world, atmosphere and environmental detail remain a crowning achievement, but I found very few, if any, of the characters particularly compelling this time around.

Bently Sheds

Personally I was all "oh for fuck's sake" when
Spoiler alert
Lev buggered off on the speedboat and we had to go off on a rescue mission
[close]
, that was when I started feeling that stuff had been added just to bulk the whole thing out.

Loved the game, but I can't see myself sitting through the load screens when I skip the cut scenes on a re-play any time soon...

Harpo Speaks

The longer the game sits with me, and the more I reflect on it, the more I like it and feel I was giving too much weight to the elements that don't quite work, instead of the things that the game does astonishingly well. I've started a New Game plus.

Fucking up the controls constantly mind as I'm playing Tsushima  at the same time.

Sexton Brackets Drugbust

Disappointed there's no crushing difficulty trophy - I'm pathetic - as it's kind of been a tradition for me to play The more recent Naughty Dog games through once as a story experience and once as a gameplay/resource management challenge on Crushing.

Started it immediately after finishing and one problem that's become more of an issue on the higher difficulty is your companion's near unfailing tendency to occupy the most strategic hiding spot/ambush point, despite them having no intention of acting. The number of times I've crept over to a piece of cover, only for Dina to overtake me and prevent me from using the space...

This is far more of an issue on the higher difficulty settings as the snail's pace you're required to move at in order to not alert the infected, often necessitates hiding spots with the smallest distance between your starting point and the target.

I've also had moments where I notice a target is turning round, so I creep back into cover to avoid being spotted, only to find myself essentially moonwalking on the spot because Dina's now occupied the space immediately behind me and refuses to move.

Just coming up to Ellie's hospital visit, but haven't reached the game's midpoint shift yet. I'll be interested to see if it maintains my interest by that point, as I'd say 'Return to the Coast' section was roughly when I started to find it a bit of an episodic slog first time around.

Thursday

#235
About halfway through this now, I think.

Some general thoughts

Spoiler alert
Started off pretty badly, I think stealth against infected is really inconsistent, as they'll just randomly turn around, or hear when you've been creeping incredibly slowly.

Combat's much much better when you're fighting people, although I do often find myself getting a bit lost as I try to progress through an area. I also find myself feeling pressured to use stealth, just because it feels like the "proper way" and even without that, there's the pressure of resource management gnawing away at me when I want to just have a gunfight or run around smashing cunts faces in.

Flashbacks scenes have been pretty useless, I think they just wanted some nice Joel and Ellie interaction, as fan appeasement, but it's not really adding or informing anything to the overall themes.

I'm really not on board with the characters thirst for revenge. That's just something I have to accept about the premise really. I'm not really convinced even buying into this universe and situation that most people are so all consumed by revenge, it just doesn't really hold true to me. Obviously there wouldn't be much game though if that were true.

I just did the bit where Ellie kills Owen and Mel and then feels sick at seeing Mel was pregnant... and it's just like... well yeah? Are we supposed to feel shocked and suddenly realise that the "baddies" are human too? Is that really the level we're operating at? I assume we are and that's what the perspective switch I'm about to get to will reiterate. Although I'll credit it with the possibility that it'll do at least a little bit more than that.

I wish the game - and maybe it will - would explore the aspect of the ending of the first game that Ellie never had any choice in what happened to her. The fireflies and Joel never gave her an option - the whole angle of taking away somebodies choice - That could have been a far more interesting theme and angle for the sequel to take then the old cycle of revenge and violence.
[close]

C_Larence

I believe your last point does come up, but I forget at what point during the game and you may already have seen it?

Thursday

#237
Ha yes, it was basically the next scene. Although not from Ellie's point of view.

Thursday

Spoiler alert

Now Abby and Owen are walking around the Aquarium - Just like Joel and Ellie were walking around the museum! Do you see? It's like Poetry they rhyme!
[close]

Thursday

Got to the Arm and Hammer scene that was in a trailer that upset everyone, very, very bizarre that it was in a trailer, but the bit after that was a great sequence, very dark and atmospheric. Kind of wish they'd been leaning into that mood more.