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March 28, 2024, 08:44:49 AM

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The Last of Us 2 (Coming June 19th)

Started by Sin Agog, May 06, 2020, 11:54:15 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

bgmnts

Apparently this is akin to Schindler's List, according to one reviewer.

Whether this is a subtle dig, I do not know.

Zetetic

#91
No, it seems to be serious, and led to this attempt by Naughty Dog's VP to set their followers on some people joking about it:
https://twitter.com/Neil_Druckmann/status/1272237950487560192

Relevant context might be that Jason Schreier had recently written an article about Naughty Dog's working practices.




Has their been any serious "critical discourse" about the game? Looking at how a game that leans heavily on mandatory hyper-realistic justified violence might be understood here and now? Whether or not adding a thin veneer of "vengeance isn't great" is enough to change the meaning of that? Whether it might actually be kind of a counterproductive horrible thing to emphasise your victims' personhood while absolutely demanding the necessity of your violence towards them?

(How that relates to the storywriter explicitly linking this to the Israel-Palestine conflict?)

popcorn

Excuse me can you keep politics out of video games please?

Bazooka

Every throat slit, ever scalp shot off ,every axe through someone's chest , every death rattle, every smoldering wanker, I loved every second.

Kelvin

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2020, 08:37:57 PM
No, it seems to be serious, and led to this attempt by Naughty Dog's VP to set their followers on some people joking about it:
https://twitter.com/Neil_Druckmann/status/1272237950487560192

Relevant context might be that Jason Schreier had recently written an article about Naughty Dog's working practices.




Has their been any serious "critical discourse" about the game? Looking at how a game that leans heavily on mandatory hyper-realistic justified violence might be understood here and now? Whether or not adding a thin veneer of "vengeance isn't great" is enough to change the meaning of that? Whether it might actually be kind of a counterproductive horrible thing to emphasise your victims' personhood while absolutely demanding the necessity of your violence towards them?

(How that relates to the storywriter explicitly linking this to the Israel-Palestine conflict?)

Jim Sterling was fairly critical of the story-telling, length and pacing in his Jimpressions. He also did a separate Jimquisition on the Schindler's List comparison, although I didn't think it was his best work.   

popcorn

Quote from: Bazooka on June 25, 2020, 09:00:52 PM
Every throat slit, ever scalp shot off ,every axe through someone's chest , every death rattle, every smoldering wanker, I loved every second.

Spoiler alert
I did enjoy suddenly finding myself chasing a woman through a hospital holding an axe.

I'm en route to the aquarium now - how much do I have left?
[close]

Timothy

Popcorn, you are
Spoiler alert
almost halfway
[close]
.

And Bazooka (warning to everyone else, spoilers about the end of the game):
Spoiler alert
Yeah the ending was quite obvious. Was hoping for one last plot twist. Also really hated the unnecessary loss of Yara and the fact we as players couldn't take revenge on Isaac. Bit disappointed about the ending and was hoping for one final scene after the credits. Agree with Jimquisition saying it's a few hours too long.  But great game though. Couldn't stop playing.
[close]

popcorn

Quote from: Timothy on June 25, 2020, 10:09:09 PM
Popcorn, you are
Spoiler alert
almost halfway
[close]
.

Jesus Christ! This game is absurdly long. I'm already getting a bit fatigued and I'm apparently not hammering it like a lot of others have been.

Bazooka

Quote from: Timothy on June 25, 2020, 10:09:09 PM
Popcorn, you are
Spoiler alert
almost halfway
[close]
.

And Bazooka (warning to everyone else, spoilers about the end of the game):
Spoiler alert
Yeah the ending was quite obvious. Was hoping for one last plot twist. Also really hated the unnecessary loss of Yara and the fact we as players couldn't take revenge on Isaac. Bit disappointed about the ending and was hoping for one final scene after the credits. Agree with Jimquisition saying it's a few hours too long.  But great game though. Couldn't stop playing.
[close]


Don't read! 会

Spoiler alert
After Jesse getting taken out, Yara's death especially after seeing their mother dead, just felt thrown in so the end would have Levy as a bargaining chip. I would have almost rather have had Ellie actually kill Abby for all the pointlessness of the last section, or I was expecting Levy to attack her and both Abby and Ellie bleed out next to each other. I'm glad Ellie lived, but the theme of "revenge makes you the same as the other person" etc had been running through the whole thing, thus making the outcome obvious hours before. Also I think the section with Abby and Owen in the Aquarium was largely unnecessary, again it was to show us the obvious they are only human too, and there was enough exposition to signal they were very close
[close]

Bazooka

Quote from: popcorn on June 25, 2020, 10:30:33 PM
Jesus Christ! This game is absurdly long. I'm already getting a bit fatigued and I'm apparently not hammering it like a lot of others have been.

With the exception of one section the pacing is good though.

popcorn

Quote from: Bazooka on June 25, 2020, 11:04:22 PM
With the exception of one section the pacing is good though.

I'm starting to feel there are just too many encounters. They're brilliant but so nerve-wracking I feel like I want about one per hour, tops. I also feel I'd like a closer ratio of story development to gameplay at this point.

BUT still very much enjoying it.

popcorn

An old colleague of mine worked on this, and I've just found a collectable letter signed with the name of the chap who used to sit between us. Strange.

brat-sampson

Started it yesterday and have reached up to exploring Seattle. Agree the pacing is ace and there are some incredibly intense scenes. I'm playing no an OG PS4 but everything still looks perfect, as is par for the course with ND, but still. The lighting on some of these trees. The object physics as you handle ropes/cables. The pitch-perfect level design that guides you without guiding you. Instead of the 'yellow = handhold' they are relying more on just situational awareness. Look up, look down, turn around, spot a gap, you'll find a way and it'll never be boringly obvious or irritatingly difficult.

Actual encounters up to now have been a bit too based on 'sneak up, stab, sneak up, stab... etc' and I'm playing on normal which I've heard is a bit overly generous with the resources. I've certainly been overly abundant rather than lacking up to now, but again I'm really only at the start. I'm here for the ride, so won't be reading too many more impressions, but it was good to see the praise here. Probably slightly tipped me over into buying it.

Timothy

Quote from: Bazooka on June 25, 2020, 11:03:03 PM

Don't read! 会

Spoiler alert
After Jesse getting taken out, Yara's death especially after seeing their mother dead, just felt thrown in so the end would have Levy as a bargaining chip. I would have almost rather have had Ellie actually kill Abby for all the pointlessness of the last section, or I was expecting Levy to attack her and both Abby and Ellie bleed out next to each other. I'm glad Ellie lived, but the theme of "revenge makes you the same as the other person" etc had been running through the whole thing, thus making the outcome obvious hours before. Also I think the section with Abby and Owen in the Aquarium was largely unnecessary, again it was to show us the obvious they are only human too, and there was enough exposition to signal they were very close
[close]

Don't read, spoilers about the end.

Spoiler alert
I absolutely agree. It's an absolute great game but storywise it could have been miles better. In my opinion the game would have been better if you didn't play with Abby at the beginning, but only started her journey after the time they meet in the theatre. Would have been a bigger twist. And if they wanted to kill Yara it would have been better to do so at the pillars at the end. Have Abby fall off, Abby cuts Lev loose and cuts Yara loose, Yara is dead, making the whole revenge thing and fighting each other seem even more pointless. Also agreed about the Owen and Abby section.

Same goes for the dog. Like Jimquisition said. Don't let us kill dozens of dogs and then mourn one of them. If Bear (was it's name right) was the only dog you killed in the game if would have made way more impact.

What I don't like about the Naughty Dog Storytelling after Uncharted 4 or so is that it seems they don't trust the player enough and fill in each and every blank. Players are smart enough to fill in empty spaces themselves.
[close]

Bazooka

^^ I concur Timothy, but narrative jiggles aside, the story,set pieces and depth of characters leave the majority of other games of this gen in the dust. Ys: Memories of Celceta got a European release ()2012 Vita port) the same day on ps4, got that to play next, one of my favourite jrpg series, but very different games ha.

Timothy

Absolutely. It also has the effect of making other older action adventure and stealth games almost seem mediocre in comparison. Tried playing a few PSNOW games yesterday after finishing TLOU but everything felt a bit sloppy.

Was really looking forward to Ghost of Thusisma but dreading it a bit now. Can't never be as good, gameplay wise, as this was right?

Let me know how Ys is. Still on the fence about buying it!

Harpo Speaks

Having finished it now, I'm quite conflicted about the game overall.

Some spoilery thoughts below:

Spoiler alert
Whilst what they attempt with the shift in perspective works to a certain extent, in comes at a huge detriment to the pacing of the game in my opinion. I think there are other ways to either present that perspective, or at least change the way that the story is structured at that point. The game is overlong, and some of that really could have been tightened. On a more minor note, I also couldn't believe they used a similar boss fight mechanic in the theatre to the much maligned one that appeared TLOU when you fight David, as that was a real low point of that game. 

The frustration for me is that on the other hand, this game contains some absolutely beautiful character interactions, some of the most intense and brutal combat and stealth scenarios I've ever played, and the environments (and the detail therein) are absolutely stunning. There is so much in this game that is incredible. I just wish it felt more cohesive.

I actually love that the inciting incident is a consequence of the actions taken in the first game. Whilst I managed to avoid the leaks, I was aware that the reaction to them was extremely negative, so that was something that I did think may occur in the game, and made sense to me based on the gameplay/trailers I had seen up to that point. People are still cunts for trying to deliberately ruin that for others though. A few of them are the same cunts who are throwing an absolute tantrum about 'SJW propaganda' because there is some representation in the game.
[close]

Zetetic

When you say that the
Spoiler alert
shift in perspective
[close]
"works" ("to a certain extent"), what do you think it achieves?

popcorn

Oh dear, I'm getting a bit tired of this now.

Spoiler alert
I'm going down the building with Lev, now in a spore-filled area looking for a gas mask. How much longer do I have?
[close]



Zetetic

West Bank annexation plans being finalised today.

Discourse on a game where the creative spark was - openly - "Imagine if you could speak to the Palestinians (but still keep killing them)" remains "actually, an homosexual is good, sorry if that's too controversial" and "bit long isn't it?".

popcorn

Did you forget to pre-order Zetetic?

Zetetic

Look, I'm prepared to accept "it's a bit long" is a valid criticism.

(And that the lighting and rope physics are excellent.)

popcorn

Quote from: Zetetic on June 28, 2020, 12:50:32 PM
Discourse on a game where the creative spark was - openly - "Imagine if you could speak to the Palestinians (but still keep killing them)"

Can you link to this please? I'm googling but not finding.

Zetetic

First find:

Mr. Druckmann co-wrote the game with Halley Gross, a screenwriter who has worked on HBO's "Westworld." He said the story was inspired by a video he saw around 2000, in which two Israeli reservists were killed in Ramallah while a crowd cheered. (Source.)




(Interesting how the recounting frames the Palestinians and their context, as an aside. Which also makes it harder to find, I confess.)

To an extent that's obviously irrelevant, compared to it being released into a world where a) Israel's annexation of more of Palestine is underway and b) there are protests across the United States about police violence (itself ostensibly unavoidably driven by the impulse to self-defence).

popcorn

Do you think it would be acceptable to have released this game at any other time in the last 20 years?

Zetetic

It's acceptable now, even if I don't like the position it expresses.

But I think it's disappointing how un-seriously it's taken, given how serious it seems to seek to be and how much noise it has generated and will continue to generate.

It is an important and popular work of art, that has absorbed an enormous amount of human creativity, skill and effort.

popcorn

Perhaps you could start the discourse by playing the game and writing up what you think about it.

Zetetic

I lack the equipment. I can only watch others play it and read what its authors say about it.

And ask others to explain what it conveys or how it moves that I've missed through those things.

There doesn't seem much ambiguity that experiencing it more directly could fill - but I'm open to being corrected. Unfortunately much of the discussion seems to centre on the usual culture wars shit covered previously in this thread.