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Glinner Posts Mortem: Dying on Transphobia Hill 4: The (g)Room(er)

Started by madhair60, May 11, 2020, 10:48:52 PM

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Joe Oakes

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 21, 2020, 11:18:54 PM
yeah I've seen pictures of Fallon Fox, she's 5' 7" weighs 140lb (10 stone) and her muscles are only as big as mine

she had also been gobbling oestrogen for seven years (undergoing gender reassignment in 2006) prior to her MMA debut

or are you suggesting women are too weak to break each other's faces?

oh really

all Russian and Chinese female athletes are neutered men are they

as is the British cycling team

deliberately switching genders so they can dominate women's sports, women's sports, with all the money and prestige that goes along with them


As far as I'm aware, Oestrogen doesn't thin your bones. Which is fairly important when it relates to how hard you can punch/kick or absorb a strike to your jawline. She obviously has physical advantages in fighting having been born male, and denying that doesn't help the trans cause. It just gives people like glinner the chance to grasp onto something tangible to prop up their bullshit.

"or are you suggesting women are too weak to break each other's faces?

oh really"


Nice attempt to make me look like a misogynist, but you'll be relieved to know that I very much enjoy watching women break each other's faces. That came out wrong, but hopefully you get me.

I don't even have a problem with Fallon Fox fighting women who know that she transitioned, but to fight two pro fights (and an amateur one) without disclosing was unethical, unsporting and potentially criminal.

I think you missed my point about Russia, China and British Cycling. Some people will always cheat to win, because people are people. Russia is famous for its long history of the state-sponsored drugging up of their female athletes. They've probably already done it, judging by my memories of the Olympics in the 80s. Prestige does count, particularly for the worst types of communist governments.

Btw, I'm impressed by your muscles.


madhair60


There are murmurs of a possible Tim Westwood cancellation right now.

Cold Meat Platter


Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Quote from: Joe Oakes on June 22, 2020, 12:00:04 AM

As far as I'm aware, Oestrogen doesn't thin your bones. Which is fairly important when it relates to how hard you can punch/kick or absorb a strike to your jawline. She obviously has physical advantages in fighting having been born male

And here we are back to "just so" assumptions. Is there any science about the effect switching from testosterone to oestrogen for seven years has on muscle mass? cos you can have the heaviest, densest bones in the world but if you can't move them you're fucked.

Quoteto fight two pro fights (and an amateur one) without disclosing was unethical, unsporting and potentially criminal.
haha fucking how?!

I wrestle men. Regularly. Kinda have to when you're in a club where they outnumber the women by 8 to 1. If one of them injures me is that suddenly assault because they're a man and I'm a woman?

QuoteI think you missed my point about Russia, China and British Cycling. Some people will always cheat to win, because people are people.
yeah there's a world of fucking difference between gobbling steroids or pumping yourself with an extra pint of your own blood, and taking hormones and chopping off your external genitalia you stupid clown

QuoteBtw, I'm impressed by your muscles.
I've got lovely dense bones as well, lifting weights will do that for ya. Oh no I must be a secret man

Joe Oakes

Quote from: thecuriousorange on June 22, 2020, 12:03:37 AM
There are murmurs of a possible Tim Westwood cancellation right now.

30 years too late.

Still can't believe the BBC allowed him to stay so long. He used his show to promote his own gigs and play shitty music almost exclusively from the same record label he was on (and made a lot of cash from). The worst ever use of taxpayers money from the BBC, aside from that bizarre pro-Uri Geller doc they did about 10 years ago.

Would it be wrong of me to hope that this Westwood stuff is child-related? Actually, don't answer that, I've just worked it out for myself.

Joe Oakes

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 12:10:57 AM
And here we are back to "just so" assumptions. Is there any science about the effect switching from testosterone to oestrogen for seven years has on muscle mass? cos you can have the heaviest, densest bones in the world but if you can't move them you're fucked.
haha fucking how?!

This may surprise you, but I'm not an expert on the science. But if it's of any help, if I was, I would probably agreed with me.

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 12:10:57 AM
I wrestle men. Regularly. Kinda have to when you're in a club where they outnumber the women by 8 to 1. If one of them injures me is that suddenly assault because they're a man and I'm a woman?

I prefer to wrestle with the injustices of the world. On the reg. But that's just me. And your comparison doesn't tally. When you wrestle men, you are aware that they are men beforehand. And if, for example, you trained with best male wrestler in the world (Giant Haystacks? Admittedly, I'm a little out of touch with the wrestling scene), he wouldn't be going 100% or trying to give you brain damage like his life depended on it.

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 12:10:57 AM
yeah there's a world of fucking difference between gobbling steroids or pumping yourself with an extra pint of your own blood, and taking hormones and chopping off your external genitalia you stupid clown

You're right, virtually no-one would change sex purely for an advantage in sport, that would be silly. Are you sure that isn't a straw man argument or are people really saying this? In some competitive sports, especially things like MMA, there can definitely be advantages from being born with male bits, regardless to any reasons why they transitioned.

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on June 22, 2020, 12:10:57 AM
I've got lovely dense bones as well, lifting weights will do that for ya. Oh no I must be a secret man

Your bones aren't the only dense thing about you. And before you say anything, I'm talking about the density of your muscle mass.



Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Quote from: Joe Oakes on June 22, 2020, 12:59:40 AM
This may surprise you, but I'm not an expert on the science. But I sure do talk like I am, even though I don't know shit. I don't even know that MMA, like all martial arts, has divisions based on weight. I can't answer a single question you posted. Let me accuse you of strawmanning even though you're repeating something I said. I don't need to fact-check my stupid uneducated opinions. I just know things.

bgmnts

There's a place where you get to wrestle with women?

Yes please.

GoblinAhFuckScary


H-O-W-L

Quote from: pigamus on June 21, 2020, 11:36:16 PM
It's like those women who want to marry Peter Sutcliffe.

But he really was so truly very sorry.

evilcommiedictator

"MMA is a serious sport with proper non-doped up athletes and no rigged fights, like professional boxing"

It's funny to me, that Glinner and all the armchair folks are so outraged, and the people they actually play with couldn't give the tiniest shit. We had the same here, with a trans lady being stopped from playing in the semi-pro Women's Australian Football League, during which frothing at the mouth by the usual suspects could have powered every single gay nightclub's foam parties for years

Mister Six

Quote from: Joe Oakes on June 22, 2020, 12:00:04 AMShe obviously has physical advantages in fighting having been born male, and denying that doesn't help the trans cause.

This thing is such bollocks. I know fucking hefty cis women that can floor most blokes if they want to. I know cis female weighlifters who can deadlift absurd amounts. I know cis men who are naturally short and slight. I myself am tall but naturally skinny as fuck, with spindly limbs.

Broadly you can say that men are stronger than women. But on an individual level that doesn't apply at all, and there's no reason to believe that any specific trans MMA fighter would be automatically stronger or weaker than any specific cis MMA fighter. As pointed out, she was beaten in her third fight.

(And as mentioned, there are trans men boxers and MMA fighters, but nobody seems to talk about them...)

Joe Oakes

Quote from: Mister Six on June 22, 2020, 03:37:03 AM
Broadly you can say that men are stronger than women. But on an individual level that doesn't apply at all, and there's no reason to believe that any specific trans MMA fighter would be automatically stronger or weaker than any specific cis MMA fighter. As pointed out, she was beaten in her third fight.

(And as mentioned, there are trans men boxers and MMA fighters, but nobody seems to talk about them...)

That was her only defeat, she finished all her other 6 opponents. Plus I didn't say that being trans makes you invincible, of course you could still lose to higher skilled fighter, or even a lower skilled one on a bad day.

The reason you don't hear much about trans men fighters is because none of them have been anywhere near as successful as Fallon Fox. Funny that.

Bernice

Black people have higher bone density than whites. Makes you think, doesn't it.

Joe Oakes

Quote from: Bernice on June 22, 2020, 04:54:18 AM
Black people have higher bone density than whites. Makes you think, doesn't it.

I'm not sure how relevant density is, more importantly, are black people's bones bigger? Actually, don't answer that.

Barry Admin

Quote from: Joe Oakes on June 22, 2020, 05:01:12 AM
I'm not sure how relevant density is, more importantly, are black people's bones bigger? Actually, don't answer that.

Then why did you invoke that argument at the top of the page?

I used to be in favor of trans rights, but the possibility of marginally affecting the integrity of the Ultimate Fighting Championship is just too high a price to pay for supporting human dignity.

apopheniac

Quote from: Joe Oakes on June 22, 2020, 12:00:04 AM
I think you missed my point about Russia, China and British Cycling. Some people will always cheat to win, because people are people. Russia is famous for its long history of the state-sponsored drugging up of their female athletes. They've probably already done it, judging by my memories of the Olympics in the 80s. Prestige does count, particularly for the worst types of communist governments.

Ironically, the Russian doping scandal showed that anyone doing this is going to have to deal with dysphoria.

If it gets so widespread that cis men are taking oestrogen en masse to get into womens' sports, then obviously there'll have to be some kind of measure put in place (like with other attempts to cheat). Until then, it seems like an overreaction to punish a trans woman for wanting to compete.

Barry Admin

Saw a great tweet on Katy Montgomerie's timeline there:

Quote from: brynismynameThere are no men pretending to be trans women. Point me towards a cis man who would be prepared to take a drug that gives them erectile dysfunction and makes them grow tits, I'll wait.

Retinend

Quote from: phes on June 21, 2020, 10:17:32 PM
The 'it was a joke all along, Richard's actually a GC hero!' thing he keeps doing only seems to prove that his jokes are unfunny and many of his supporters will believe anything he says. It's such a bizarre meme

Funny how he's repeating this since it happened at the end of the last thread, too:as I said then, too I believe it is because he resents the shame he feels (and ought to feel) but feels himself innocent, and so wants innocent people to feel that shame.



context:

https://imgur.com/a/PeM1viA

(at risk of backseat-modding, can we include more screengrabs for the next thread, please?)

MojoJojo

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about MMA or what have you, but it is blatantly obvious that whether trans competitors are allowed to compete is up to their professional body, and has nothing to do with wider trans issues and rights.

phantom_power

Yeah I am pretty I read somewhere* that muscle mass is the main indicator of strength and hormones quite quickly give you the muscle mass of the gender you are transitioning into. I imagine sporting bodies are well aware of this and that is why they allow trans people to compete


*the mark of a true expert

apopheniac

Quote from: Retinend on June 22, 2020, 07:04:40 AM
context:
https://imgur.com/a/PeM1viA

If I saw that first tweet without context, I probably wouldn't question it. Well, maybe I'd be like "whoa, that's a bit heavy for a comedy podcast".

But I'm not seeing where it's so obvious that Herring wouldn't interview him. A misunderstanding on social media doesn't mean he couldn't have called and sorted things out. Though I suppose when you're demonising people for not caring/having an opinion about this one thing, of course you're going to think a Twitter block means you're persona non grata.


here4glinner

Quote from: phantom_power on June 22, 2020, 08:20:17 AM
Yeah I am pretty I read somewhere* that muscle mass is the main indicator of strength and hormones quite quickly give you the muscle mass of the gender you are transitioning into. I imagine sporting bodies are well aware of this and that is why they allow trans people to compete


*the mark of a true expert

Agreed. I don't think the rules for who can fight in professional MMA have any real impact on public policy or legislation. I appreciate that people might have strong opinions on it but I think it's tangential to the point. And next to issues like access to healthcare and public conveniences,it seems like a near-irrelevance.

It might be no issue if a trans woman competes against cis women in some events but maybe tin hings like the 100m sprint or MMA the difference is significant. And it's up to sports scientists and professional bodies to decide where the line is. If it turns out that trans women can never compete in the 100m sprint at an Olympic level, that's unfortunate but at least there are evidence-based reasons.

For a ridiculous slippery slope example, if Tyson Fury self-IDed as a woman today, would it be prejudiced if they weren't allowed to compete for the women's title belt tomorrow? What about after five years on oestrogen? I'm sure sports scientists can draw the line better than people on this thread.

I also think it's helpful for trans rights advocates to accept nuance and grey areas. The GC crowd doesn't. You don't want to be painted as someone who thinks that the Black Cab Rapist can ID as a woman and then immediately be transferred to a woman's jail. The thought of this actually happening is ludicrous, but GCs would happily paint our position as this, and people on the sidelines might find this hypothetical scenario compelling. They already assert that we want lesbians to be forced to have sex with people with penises.

chrispmartha

Quote from: sambwel on June 22, 2020, 09:01:06 AM
Fucking hell, that's pathetic.

Indeed.

What I find rather odd about his stance is that if he seems to think if you don't spend your life tweeting about this, or fully comply to his stupid questions, you are a misogynist and don't care about Women.

He's a really odd man.

I really should just unfollow him but for some reason it's quite fascinating.

Thomas

Quote from: chrispmartha on June 22, 2020, 09:30:26 AM
Indeed.

What I find rather odd about his stance is that if he seems to think if you don't spend your life tweeting about this, or fully comply to his stupid questions, you are a misogynist and don't care about Women.

Someone responded to the RHLSTP tweet with 'This is sad,  I remember when you were both funny.' Graham replies:

Quote from: Glinnerme too. More important things than that going on though

But... won't there always be? He can never go back to comedy. Even if he solves the trans issue to his satisfaction, there'll still be a situation in Palestine. A destructive class system in the UK. A racist justice system in the US. Unsustainable deforestation in the Amazon.

By his own logic, of course, his silence on these issues is traitorous complicity.

Sonny_Jim

He's having fantasies about appearing on RHLSTP.

Fuck me that's grim.

pigamus

Quote from: sambwel on June 22, 2020, 09:01:06 AM
Fucking hell, that's pathetic.

I love "...or any subject."

Go on, Herring, interview me about the 1977 Morecambe and Wise Christmas special! You can't, can you? You're too AFRAID!