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Need Some Turntable Advice

Started by Malcy, May 13, 2020, 04:40:57 PM

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NoSleep

Quote from: buzby on June 03, 2020, 02:06:38 PM
It's mainly due to the quality of the diamond tip -  the Blue stylus has a "Nude Elliptical diamond which retrieves information from the groove with a higher accuracy" vs the Red's 'Tipped Elliptical diamond"

There's surely better pickup as well; not necessarily going from the ortofon red to blue, but generally, as you improve on whatever cartridge is fitted on these cheap decks out of the box; more bass response, etc.

Endicott

Yep - the project audio cable may look something like this - both of those spades are meant to attach to earth posts, one on the back of the deck and one on the amp.


buzby

Quote from: NoSleep on June 03, 2020, 04:07:50 PM
There's surely better pickup as well; not necessarily going from the ortofon red to blue, but generally, as you improve on whatever cartridge is fitted on these cheap decks out of the box; more bass response, etc.
It was just the differences between the Red and Blue styli I was referring to - the Red and Blue cartridges are not the same specs electrically, but you can upgrade the stylus on a Red to the Blue version (for presumably some barely audible improvement, at twice the price of the Red stylus) as they are mechanically the same fit.

Sebastian Cobb

I was really surprised how ropey my AT95 had become when I replaced it (reasonable use over ~4 years at 2g tracking - seems a bit short really), I hadn't noticed it sounding bad on it's own, although I had a bit of an ear problem that resulted in my ears getting syringed. Then I noticed the top wasn't 'quite right'.

But when I did a side-by-side comparison of my old and new needle things either sounded muffled or really bright stuff sounded a bit 'white noisey'.

So when i replaced it I bought a £1 digital golf counter that I now use to count the sides of an LP played, and then assume each side = 20 minutes as a very rough hours calculation.

I was also quite surprised to see that my at95 claims it's only good for 300 hours. I'd expect about 1000 really.

holyzombiejesus

Bloody hell, you take this stuff seriously! Are you the guy who washes his new records before playing them?

What cleaning things do people on here use? I've got a yellow rag and spittle. My dad used to have this thing that you'd put on the record while it played, it was like a mini brush on an arm, possibly with some kind of roller attached. I also was given an anti-static gun which I was supposed to 'fire' at my records to get rid of static.

Egyptian Feast

I've been using this (Amazon link, sorry, couldn't find it elsewhere) recently and it's really handy. It's great for picking up fluff n' bits and easy to clean (bit of soapy water). Much better than any brushes or cloths I've used before, as it gets rid of the dust rather than spreading it around. Feels nice when you run it over a record right after you've washed it and it's all tacky again. Makes a nice sticky sound.

Sebastian Cobb

I've basically become the thing I hate. I think this 'none of this matters until you notice' is largely true against militant advice, generally. But then due to earwax buildup over time I ended up actually quite deaf and it turns out my needles were actually a bit blunt.

As for record cleaning, get a disco knosti antistat and make your own cleaning fluid: 80ml deoinised water, 20ml isopropyl alcohol, 1/8tsp desurficant (dishwasher or photographic).

This made me realise that most scratched records are full of muck and the scratches aren't deep enough to reflect playback, but also shiny clean old records can still be crackly and benefit from a clean.


Egyptian Feast

Quote from: buzby on June 03, 2020, 02:06:38 PM
I assume you mean the tonearm is wobbling on it's bearings as you lower it onto the platter? If so, that sounds like an issue in the gimbal bearings (see this thread - it mentions the arm moving laterally as it lowers, and in this case this case it was due to the bearings being overtightened). the tool that is mentioned for adjusting them is called the Pro-Ject Adjust-It and it costs about £25

Can you feel any play or binding in the bearings as you move the arm?

Cheers for that, buzby. I haven't had the OP's issue with skipping, thankfully, but the tonearm does drift to the right like a person aging poorly when I lower the lever. The arm moves quite freely, so I can't say I feel any play or binding when I move it. If I position it at the beginning of a side, as it lowers it sometimes goes right off the outer edge. I find I have to position it a few mm into the first track before lowering, but I always forget to do that.

It gets worse I find the closer you get to the end of the side. As an example, the other day I had to pause 'Duchess' halfway when my boss called and after I moved back to the beginning and lowered the arm it drifted back and plopped down a few seconds into 'The Old Man's Back Again'. It wasn't like that when I got it, but I've been noticing it more and more the last couple of years.

Sebastian Cobb

#38
That just sounds like incorrect anti-skate. This could involve merely setting it to the (known) tracking weight of your cartridge or a lot of precise geometrics.

Egyptian Feast

Quote from: magval on June 03, 2020, 02:54:41 PM
I have a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon as well - Egyptian Feast, did you ever have any trouble with a terrible hum that's audible between songs and which tends to increase if you hover your fingers near the exposed wires that connect the head of the tonearm to the main shaft of it?

I can't say I've had that issue at all, thankfully. Hope you can get that sorted easily enough, sounds like a pain in the arse.

Egyptian Feast

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on June 03, 2020, 08:12:20 PM
That just sounds like incorrect anti-skate. This could involve merely setting it to the (known) tracking weight of your cartridge or a lot of precise geometrics.

Hahaha! I'm a total knob. I just moved it to the highest notch and the arm is steady as it drops. I must've mistakenly remembered the middle one as being the correct setting over the years. What a div. Cheers for that head-slappingly simple advice Sebastian Cobb!

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Egyptian Feast on June 03, 2020, 08:44:33 PM
Hahaha! I'm a total knob. I just moved it to the highest notch and the arm is steady as it drops. I must've mistakenly remembered the middle one as being the correct setting over the years. What a div. Cheers for that head-slappingly simple advice Sebastian Cobb!
It still doesn't sound like you've set it right. It should be set to the same weight as the tracking force of your tonearm. It's supposed to act as an opposing force relative to the outward force of your tonarm following the groove.

If you don't know the tracking force of your tonearm then knock it back slightly.

holyzombiejesus

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on June 03, 2020, 08:12:20 PM
This could involve merely setting it to the (known) tracking weight of your cartridge or a lot of precise geometrics.

Quote from: Egyptian Feast on June 03, 2020, 08:44:33 PMI just moved it to the highest notch

*shakes head*

Egyptian Feast

Ha! I told you I'm a total knob. I just got excited when a simple solution seemed to work and I didn't have to do very much or look anything up. That kind of thinking is why everything's shite in the world. I've put it on the correct notch again. So if the tonearm is wavering a little and the counterweight is seemingly at the right setting for the cartridge as per the manual, then it's probably not quite set correctly? I was new to this kind of faffing about after having cheap turntables for decades, so it still kinda baffles me. Wouldn't be surprised if I had bolloxed it up, but at least it sounds good. Or maybe it doesn't sound good and I've bolloxed up listening to music properly?


buzby

Quote from: Egyptian Feast on June 03, 2020, 09:56:04 PM
Ha! I told you I'm a total knob. I just got excited when a simple solution seemed to work and I didn't have to do very much or look anything up. That kind of thinking is why everything's shite in the world. I've put it on the correct notch again. So if the tonearm is wavering a little and the counterweight is seemingly at the right setting for the cartridge as per the manual, then it's probably not quite set correctly? I was new to this kind of faffing about after having cheap turntables for decades, so it still kinda baffles me. Wouldn't be surprised if I had bolloxed it up, but at least it sounds good. Or maybe it doesn't sound good and I've bolloxed up listening to music properly?
First of all, make sure the turntable base is level with a spirit level. There's a basic setup guide for Pro-Ject arms here, which suggests 17.5g of tracking force and the anti-skate weight set to the second notch for  the standard cartridge. If the arm is still drifting when lowered when the base is level and the tracking and anti-skate forces are set properly, then something is affecting the balance of the arm, which is what made me suggest looking at or cleaning the bearings, or possibly the wiring getting twisted where it passes from the arm into the gimbal.

Has it always done this, or is it something that's developed recently?

Egyptian Feast

It's only been happening the past year or so and I've had it since 2014, so despite my idiocy I must've set it up correctly in the first place. It always sounds great, very rarely skips and the settings are correct, so perhaps it just developed a slight drift after years of use? I'll go through that basic setup again at the weekend, hopefully that'll sort it.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

Malcy

Managed to get a Sony PS-LX300USB for £30 on eBay today. Sound supposedly good with most importantly good bass.

Contacted Amazon about the one i bought. The seller has barely any English and keeps fobbing off my complaints. Reported them for claiming their product is chargeable when it isn't as the seller had the fucking cheek to say it wasnt chargeable.

Even though its in the fucking description of the product. Cunts. They've even stopped replying to me now. Considering putting a small bit of fish in it and letting it rot on the way back to the twats.

Ferris

Stupid question of the day - if I get a nice turntable, is there any reason why I can't play it through one of my amps? The heads have pre-amps built in. Might not be a wide enough range, but wondering if anyone has done it.

Trying to skimp on my amp/speaker buying.

Sebastian Cobb

#48
Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on June 05, 2020, 09:16:00 PM
Stupid question of the day - if I get a nice turntable, is there any reason why I can't play it through one of my amps? The heads have pre-amps built in. Might not be a wide enough range, but wondering if anyone has done it.

Trying to skimp on my amp/speaker buying.

I don't know what a 'heads' are.

However, the rest of the answer largely depends largely on the age of either of your amps or the deck you plan to buy.

Most turntables aren't 'line level' and require extra (non-linear, it's on a curve) amplification. Something needs to compensate for that, traditionally it was just what your amp did (unless you verged into expensive gear) when on 'phono' but when vinyl fell out of favor it became an add-on either by an after-market module or separate box. But a lot of modern decks do have pre-stages now, and can often be by-passed.

But pre-stages aren't expensive. My old amp didn't have one and I got a NAD PP1 for about 40 quid and sold it for about 40 quid 5+ years later.

(assuming moving-magnet carts)

Ferris

Well my stupid question comes with a stupid qualifier that I mean a guitar amp. I could hook up an amp head to an acoustic amp and play it out of that, but I suspect it would be subpar, audiowise, because that's not what it is designed to and I doubt it has the range. Just wondering if anyone had done it

NoSleep

#50
You need a dedicated phono preamp, as the signal that come direct from the cartridge sounds crazy (no bass and extra-sizzly top end) and needs to have an RIAA eq curve added to it. That's why there's always a "phono" option on the back of a hifi amp and you can't just plug your deck into one of the other inputs.

And there's the small issue of there being two inputs needed for the left and right channel from the cartridge, too.

Ferris

Quote from: NoSleep on June 06, 2020, 06:19:25 AM
You need a dedicated phono preamp, as the signal that come direct from the cartridge sounds crazy (no bass and extra-sizzly top end) and needs to have an RIAA eq curve added to it. That's why there's always a "phono" option on the back of a hifi amp and you can't just plug your deck into one of the other inputs.

And there's the small issue of there being two inputs needed for the left and right channel from the cartridge, too.

Ahh well, worth an ask.

My mission to be a cheap bastard must find a new outlet.

Malcy

Well my second attempt at a turntable arrives just as I was heading out today. Cane home, cracked open the wine, switched it on.

Nothing.

Bastard came without the belt. I fucking give up...

Malcy

Check this out for a reply.

Quotehi,i honestly don't know what to say as I have never had the belt off and it would be some thing I would leave to an engineer.

An engineer. A fucking ENGINEER. I took the mat and plate off and there it was. No belt. Can I put engineer on my CV now?

NoSleep

You should easily find a replacement belt for a specific model. Although maybe you don't want to wait for it to arrive only to find something else is also wrong with the turntable after you fit it.

Malcy

Quote from: NoSleep on June 13, 2020, 05:12:24 AM
You should easily find a replacement belt for a specific model. Although maybe you don't want to wait for it to arrive only to find something else is also wrong with the turntable after you fit it.

Had a quick look last night. £10 and a week for delivery. I'm concerned that it will have other problems as well though. He's probably picked it apart for spares.

NoSleep

Maybe he hasn't but it's poor showing that he apparently had no idea that the belt was missing in a turntable that he was selling as in working condition. Probably not plundered for parts, more likely a clueless sale of something picked up in a junk shop/boot sale. Maybe demand a refund to cover the price of a new belt (nah, send it back).

Sebastian Cobb

Does the motor spin?

You could at least make sure the wiring etc is ok by putting a record on and gently spinning it with your hands.

I ought to get a new belt for my revolver, I accidentally left it on 45 for a while and it got stretched. I managed to rescue it in a bowl of hot water, but it's lost some elasticity.

Malcy

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on June 13, 2020, 01:55:30 PM
Does the motor spin?

You could at least make sure the wiring etc is ok by putting a record on and gently spinning it with your hands.

I ought to get a new belt for my revolver, I accidentally left it on 45 for a while and it got stretched. I managed to rescue it in a bowl of hot water, but it's lost some elasticity.

Yeah the part the belt hooks on to starts whirring away once it's switched on. I put a record on it and turned it and could faintly hear a song. Was plugged into my surround sound at the time but didn't come out of there.

I've sent him a message asking if he's prepared to refund the cost of a new belt  Really don't need the hassle of sending it back. I really should have just waited another month or two and shelled out for a new one.

NoSleep

Quote from: Malcy on June 13, 2020, 02:01:00 PM
I put a record on it and turned it and could faintly hear a song. Was plugged into my surround sound at the time but didn't come out of there.

When you say turned it you mean you pushed the record around? You heard it faintly because sound was coming off the the surface of the record and the arm directly? Was it connected to your surround sound in a way where it should have actually been working but somehow wasn't?