Author Topic: Open relationships  (Read 2831 times)

pancreas

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2020, 03:37:58 AM »
I haven't been invited into one of these, but it's very lateral to most people's thinking when they define a relationship, if the taboo has to be explained to us, then yes our subsequent shocked gasps may sound a little forced. For most people the relationship isn't about the people in it, it is about the context.
Take me for instance, I am not a strong man and so I have to select an environment that empowers me, predominantly in the riparian zone, where treacherous hidden banks, quagmires and ennobling pot-stilts give me the leverage I need to become the person I was born to be. A formidable bulrush jabber, slick with frog guts, hangs from my birchbark tummy sash, but my wise crinkled eyes are warm and welcoming and my fat hand proffers a bowl of tasty mollusc treats. The context, not the people, and I think most mature adults see it that way.

Tree-hugging bullshit.

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: Open relationships
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2020, 03:40:16 AM »
Might I attempt to put the case that the article at the beginning of the thread was confected by a person knowingly and with malice aforethought?

'we used to kiss in the library'

was what did it for me.

Nevertheless … IT'S WORKED!!!1!!

Dewt

  • The Fun House Grand Prix
Re: Open relationships
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2020, 05:21:57 AM »
What are you saying? Who is 'this guy' you just dreamed up, why is this guy the person you chose as the arbiter of any increment of formalisation beyond young, free people unconsciously doing something 'organic', fucking about a bit. Should polyamorous people not be allowed language that can be used to describe their relationships and share and debate their feelings and experiences, because of this guy?. That's what it sounds like you're suggesting.
Honestly if you think that the topic of polyamory being a vector for abuse is a myth then I think you're in denial. Even in a surface-level browse of online polyamory spaces you can see it's a hot-topic of conversation. This is such a stupid argument because there's a mountain of evidence about it from primary sources. If my position requires ignorance then there must be a lot of ignorant people in the poly community too.

https://psiloveyou.xyz/confronting-abuse-in-polyamorous-relationships-f9e35eea4546

People complain about reddit but look at how balanced and constructive this is:

https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/7r7pb6/my_experiences_with_abusive_poly_is_it_a_magnet/

And why do they become freaks once they have a identity?
This was insensitive phrasing on my part and I would have chosen it more carefully if I wrote the post again. It was a misjudgment to use that tone in that post. I was trying to draw a distinction between two extremes to exonerate the perfectly reasonable people in the community which I'm sure includes you, but it had the opposite effect.

phes

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2020, 09:09:56 AM »
Honestly if you think that the topic of polyamory being a vector for abuse is a myth then I think you're in denial. Even in a surface-level browse of online polyamory spaces you can see it's a hot-topic of conversation. This is such a stupid argument because there's a mountain of evidence about it from primary sources. If my position requires ignorance then there must be a lot of ignorant people in the poly community too.

https://psiloveyou.xyz/confronting-abuse-in-polyamorous-relationships-f9e35eea4546

People complain about reddit but look at how balanced and constructive this is:

https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/7r7pb6/my_experiences_with_abusive_poly_is_it_a_magnet/
This was insensitive phrasing on my part and I would have chosen it more carefully if I wrote the post again. It was a misjudgment to use that tone in that post. I was trying to draw a distinction between two extremes to exonerate the perfectly reasonable people in the community which I'm sure includes you, but it had the opposite effect.

Yes, that is a balanced and constructive conversation. And my problem with your posts were that they were not balanced and constructive. You strongly implied that through the development of community, language and recognition, polyamory has allowed itself to be co-opted em-masse by a very specific and gendered model of abuse, while ignoring those same developments are what has allowed for identification of opportunities and the characteristics of abuse. Or offering as a concession that you could conceive of these developments being an advantage. That's doesn't feel considered or balanced.

I guess the question at the heart of this is does a relationship framework characterised by permissive behaviours attract or develop emotionally abusive behaviours more than one characterised by restrictive behaviours. That's interesting. I spend some time reading around polyamory I haven't encountered all to the primary evidence that you claim evidences that. There are always anecdotes, as you said earlier, just read many of the replies when anyone starts a thread or conversation turns to polyamory. People always recount these cautionary tales as examples of what is to be expected if one is involved in polyamory, and always ignore the whopping percentage of monogamous relationships that involve infidelity, lies and abusive manipulations of memory and perception.

icehaven

  • Please don't hi five people in Tamworth
Re: Open relationships
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2020, 11:49:52 AM »
she is young and I'm not (pushing 30)

Not to go off topic but anyone under 30 who thinks they aren't young is extremely wrong indeed. Not to sound patronising (although it's hard not to on this) but just wait another decade or so and you'll find it hilarious you thought you weren't young when you were in your late 20s.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 12:08:26 PM by icehaven »

PlanktonSideburns

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2020, 11:58:55 AM »
all feels a bit glinner reading this

Dewt

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2020, 12:03:29 PM »
ffs that's just insulting to everyone glinner targets

phes

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2020, 12:26:49 PM »
I don't read that as an implication that trans people being discriminated against is equal to poly people being stigmatised. The argument that formalised polamory is an inherently dysfunctional and high risk ideology that mainly attracts men looking for a system they can manipulate to feed their desire for a harim of helpless female victims does have a bit of the Glinners about it, though.

Dewt

  • The Fun House Grand Prix
Re: Open relationships
« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2020, 12:42:37 PM »
The argument that formalised polamory is an inherently dysfunctional and high risk ideology that mainly attracts men looking for a system they can manipulate to feed their desire for a harim of helpless female victims does have a bit of the Glinners about it
inherently versus commonly

It's not a hill I'm going to die on. I think if you need to whitewash polyamory to the point where you can't even conceive that predatory people abuse it to control and use others then it's a waste of time. My initial post was a bit blunt and I was flippant about a visible unpleasant archetype of the scene, but you will never let that go so this is a dead-end.

I don't know why you wouldn't be more open about things in order to improve the situation and not potentially be part of a problem. It's evidently a big enough issue that they raise it in conferences and the like.

https://polyinthemedia.blogspot.com/2015/11/abuse-in-polyamorous-relationships.html

Same goes for any relationship with a potential power imbalance, including "regular" relationships. Outside of romantic relationships it's relevant too. Caring for somebody with a disability of some kind is a situation ripe for abusers. Addressing that isn't an attack on carers, and a good carer will make sure they're aware of the negative dynamics that can occur. You don't need to whitewash the situation because you took offense.

The glinner comparisons are shocking and you should be ashamed of yourself. You can't just say that being concerned about specific ill behaviour in a group is the same thing as glinner's campaign because you like the weight of the accusation. You may as well level the same accusation towards anybody who finds the stereotypical urban swinger a bit "eeesh"
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 12:55:20 PM by Dewt »

phes

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2020, 12:57:43 PM »
I think if you need to whitewash polyamory to the point where you can't even conceive that predatory people abuse it to control and use others then it's a waste of time. My initial post was a bit blunt and I was flippant about a visible unpleasant archetype of the scene, but you will never let that go so this is a dead-end.

Thats is a straw man

Quote from: phes
The polyamory community has been talking and talking and talking and fucking talking endlessly as is their way, for years, in meetings, conferences, networks, on forums, writing essays, books and online resources about the characteristics, history and personal experiences of polyamory, oppression, narcissism, sociopathy, love addiction, gaslighting. They are well aware abuse exists across any style of relationship you wish to name

Quote from: phes
You are zoning in on and exaggerating a specific kind of gendered, exploitative and arguably abusive minority behaviours that can be found in any type of relationship

and here's the next

Quote from: Dewt
I don't know why you wouldn't be more open about things in order to improve the situation

Make your mind up. Either let poly people be open and visible and have an identity and be a thing instead of some amorphous blob of fucking around, or don't.


Dewt

  • The Fun House Grand Prix
Re: Open relationships
« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2020, 12:58:18 PM »

kittens

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2020, 01:00:28 PM »
neil warned us about embedding nsfw stuff dewt

Danger Man

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2020, 01:09:04 PM »
[tag]Threads that turned out exactly as you expected[/tag]

Dewt

  • The Fun House Grand Prix
Re: Open relationships
« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2020, 01:11:50 PM »
At the risk of being accused of either making this up or alternatively letting a personal anecdote cloud my judgement, a very vulnerable person I was in a relationship with lived in a house in a polyamorous arrangement for a while. The abusive guy used the threat of a gun to control people there ("it's to protect you" kind-of stuff but of course he would get the gun out and just hold it if there was any tension). He made one of the women involved stand out on the porch in the Massachusetts winter snow as a punishment. He was also the landlord and used the line that he was offering them a special deal on their living arrangements by being in a relationship with them, so they'd better keep up their end of the bargain if they want to be safely homed, etc. etc. There was something about him claiming to be have a physical disability and need to be physically helped by the three(?) women too, making them pull him up the stairs like a dead weight.

She got out of the situation after a suicide attempt. The last time she was able to address it she was hoping to help somebody else escape from the situation. Her own parents were going to help her. But it didn't pan out.

I think I wrote about this before as Twed, I'd like to find that post if anybody remembers it. I hadn't actually made the connection between all of that and this discussion until just now, I guess because I block things out sometimes.

If you don't think that shitty men latch on to polyamory to do this kind of thing then I hope it's a belief you snap out of one day. You would surely want to be very vigilant about the potential for abuse if you wanted to make things safe for the good-natured people in the community. I cannot emphasise enough how dumb it is to think that people aren't going to see the whole polyamory thing and think "ahh, I could get a good thing going for me there". That's not even an attack on the polyamory community, it's an attack on shitty interlopers.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 01:32:03 PM by Dewt »

Dewt

  • The Fun House Grand Prix
Re: Open relationships
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2020, 01:40:40 PM »
Also, Onision

You would surely want to stop these people from being able to operate in your community instead of pretending they don't exist

Retinend

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2020, 02:37:38 PM »
Not to go off topic but anyone under 30 who thinks they aren't young is extremely wrong indeed. Not to sound patronising (although it's hard not to on this) but just wait another decade or so and you'll find it hilarious you thought you weren't young when you were in your late 20s.

Yet I am older than I have ever been.

Retinend

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2020, 03:02:03 PM »
Phes,



Do you ever
you know
sometimes feel that there is any sort of
I don't know
power...
or some sort of
sense of...
you know?

phes

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2020, 03:26:16 PM »
Passing through Portland i decided to make a stop and see if Jerry ever did get that 2K television tuned

About three months ago I was searching for articles about relationship anarchy. In one there was a section on theroux's documentary that mentioned criticism from The Polyamorous Community. I clicked through the link and it took me to the CaB thread.

Makes you think

Ambient Sheep

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2020, 03:44:51 PM »
a very vulnerable person I was in a relationship with lived in a house in a polyamorous arrangement for a while. The abusive guy used the threat of a gun to control people there ("it's to protect you" kind-of stuff but of course he would get the gun out and just hold it if there was any tension). He made one of the women involved stand out on the porch in the Massachusetts winter snow as a punishment. He was also the landlord and used the line that he was offering them a special deal on their living arrangements by being in a relationship with them, so they'd better keep up their end of the bargain if they want to be safely homed, etc. etc.

I don't doubt it, and I'm very sorry to hear about your friend's horrible experience.  But surely that kind of thing happens in monogamous relationships too?  (I'm not actually sure why I framed that as a question, because it does.)

icehaven

  • Please don't hi five people in Tamworth
Re: Open relationships
« Reply #79 on: May 17, 2020, 11:23:34 PM »
Yet I am older than I have ever been.

And so much younger than you will be.

Re: Open relationships
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2020, 11:24:58 AM »
This is one of those things that I can't provide a rational argument for or against. It's a matter of dignity to me, I would feel so pathetic allowing my SO to have sex with other people. In the same way that I hope they also would have the self-respect to not allow me to sleep with other people too.

I, of course, can't stop other people from doing what they want, but I do look down on polyamorous people. Again, no argument, it's just how I feel.

icehaven

  • Please don't hi five people in Tamworth
Re: Open relationships
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2020, 11:31:16 AM »
Tiger King has probably put the case for normal, balanced polyamorousness back by 50 years. Two of the main protagonists have multiple partners/sexual relationships and are also two of the most morally bankrupt, egomaniacal bellends ever to have lived. Obviously they don't represent the vast majority of people in open/polyamorous relationships but that aspect of their lives is focused on to add to the "madness" of their lifestyles. Or maybe I'm naive and everyone thinks they make it look cool, fuck knows.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 11:43:35 AM by icehaven »

Re: Open relationships
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2020, 11:58:01 AM »
Tiger King has probably put the case for normal, balanced polyamorousness back by 50 years. Two of the main protagonists have multiple partners/sexual relationships and are also two of the most morally bankrupt, egomaniacal bellends ever to have lived. Obviously they don't represent the vast majority of people in open/polyamorous relationships but that aspect of their lives is focused on to add to the "madness" of their lifestyles. Or maybe I'm naive and everyone thinks they make it look cool, fuck knows.

Is that any good? I've heard rave reviews, tarted ep 1 couldn't get through it, is it worth persevering

icehaven

  • Please don't hi five people in Tamworth
Re: Open relationships
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2020, 12:08:16 PM »
Is that any good? I've heard rave reviews, tarted ep 1 couldn't get through it, is it worth persevering

I'd say give it to at least episode 3, if you're going to be gripped by it you will be by then as it definitely gets more so as it goes along. There's a thread in Picture Box but be wary of spoilers if you do decide to give it another go.

Shaky

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2020, 12:23:48 PM »
This is one of those things that I can't provide a rational argument for or against. It's a matter of dignity to me, I would feel so pathetic allowing my SO to have sex with other people. In the same way that I hope they also would have the self-respect to not allow me to sleep with other people too.

I, of course, can't stop other people from doing what they want, but I do look down on polyamorous people. Again, no argument, it's just how I feel.

Yeah. I always fancied myself (!) as broadminded in these matters while I had no personal stake, but recently (after the collapse of a 10-year relationship) I've been seeing a new, younger lady (!!) and she has been upfront about the fact she wants as much random willy (!!!) as possible. I found I just couldn't handle the notion of sharing someone I like and suggested we simply be friends. I still feel like the issue is with me to a large extent and there has been a lot of perhaps unnecessary, torturous soul searching on my part, but I suppose we can only feel how we feel about these things.

Re: Open relationships
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2020, 01:01:08 PM »
I suggest she was not the girl for you. I also suggest she was quite ad inside,searching for something that is not there. Or she was using it as an excuse to back you off politely.

Caviette: Did she have a nice bum and wear white trainers with no socks in combination with mini skirts and surgical masks?

phes

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Re: Open relationships
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2020, 06:32:05 PM »
This is one of those things that I can't provide a rational argument for or against. It's a matter of dignity to me, I would feel so pathetic allowing my SO to have sex with other people. In the same way that I hope they also would have the self-respect to not allow me to sleep with other people too.

I, of course, can't stop other people from doing what they want, but I do look down on polyamorous people. Again, no argument, it's just how I feel.

This may just be a case of semantics, but worth highlighting that a principle in the foundation of many polyamorous relationships is the absence of entitlement to dictate this. Polyamory in the media is often described as something that looks like monogamy, but with cheating, or looks like monogamy but with more than one monogamous relationship happening in parallel. It's understandably much easier to elicit a repulsive/wtf reaction when such a familiar and relatable picture is painted with a glaring aberration. Much easier than making entertainment by describing relationships where the entire foundation may designed around different practical or emotional values, and where love and respect is conveyed in different ways

Re: Open relationships
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2020, 11:13:00 PM »
Phes,



Do you ever
you know
sometimes feel that there is any sort of
I don't know
power...
or some sort of
sense of...
you know?

I did feel sorry for the guy who was clearly second best in that Doc.  Wonder how he's getting on.

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