Black Books

[Jerzy Bondov]

Those are all great points. Another major difference is that Black Books is built around Dylan Moran. His performance is very funny, the character is great and immediately well defined, and he's just a really likeable presence despite his awful behaviour. He's also the main writer of the series as a whole. That's not to downplay Linehan's role in the first series, as he definitely contributed a lot. I also don't want to ignore how great Bill Bailey and Tamsin Greig are. But Black Books is really the Dylan Moran sitcom. Its main comic voice is his.

The IT Crowd doesn't have that element. The main voice is Linehan's, but he's not an actor and none of the characters are really his surrogate in the way Bernard is for Moran. It's just not constructed that way. It doesn't have the same reason to exist. I like Chris O'Dowd now but I think he's really terrible in The IT Crowd and Roy hasn't got an ounce of the character of Bernard. I was 14 when Black Books started and I think I fell a bit in love with Dylan Moran. I'd put him up there with Cleese in the greatest sitcom performances ever. I can't imagine anyone getting that excited about anyone in The IT Crowd. But it's really popular for some reason so fuck knows.

This far into the lockdown I now have the same hair as Bernard.

[Clownbaby]

Yep that's the problem I have with The IT Crowd. There isn't a heavy presence of a central character whose weariness and moral imbalance is strangely charming because of the person who is portraying the character. I'm not too bothered about Dylan Moran myself but he's got a definite charm and weight about him that makes the character he's playing instantly readable. Same with Dermot Morgan in Father Ted, his face and general presence instantly communicates "I'm surrounded by fucking idiots and I'm stuck with them for the forseeable future". But with that there's the unmistakable tragedy of him being stuck between knowing that a lot of the people around him are deranged, but also that he isn't ever going to be smart enough to rise above it and get away.

Chris O'Dowd though, I still don't buy into Roy as a defined main character. Is he even the main character? He's a nerdy socially redundant, sort of curmudgeonly, sometimes dour and sometimes absolutely childish but also sometimes cartoonishly weird but not all the time, all over the place.

[Cold Meat Platter]

Chris O'Dowd though, I still don't buy into Roy as a defined main character. Is he even the main character? He's a nerdy socially redundant, sort of curmudgeonly, sometimes dour and sometimes absolutely childish but also sometimes cartoonishly weird but not all the time, all over the place.

Yep, he reminds me of a regular character in latter-day Simpsons in that he is whatever he needs to be for the purposes of the plot and associated jokes.

[Sebastian Cobb]

- It's ugly. Obviously all of Linehan's sitcoms have been set in dingy or otherwise grim locations, but the parish house in Father Ted and the bookshop in Black Books are oozing with a kind of bleak charm. With the bookshop in Black Books, you almost want to be there, despite the toast on the ceiling and unidentifiable rodents roaming around. There's a romance to an old fucked-up bookshop too that I think is innately appealing, and it's certainly enjoyable to spend time in there (from a comfortable distance) no matter what the story is.

With The IT Crowd, it's all brightly-lit, dull and nowhere near as esoteric as those other settings. Of course that's sort of the point, but maybe the point is that, at its core, it's just nowhere near as good a setting as the others, regardless of what you do with it.

The It Crowd's dull set also had a load of contrived shit I suspect geeks were meant to spot, the Atari 2600 and the Commodore PET in their equipment graveyard, plus a load of plastic tat around their desks. Obviously they get some artistic licencing because having a few pc's and proliants cluttering up the place would be bloody dull too, but still, tone it down a bit eh.

[Clownbaby]

The It Crowd's dull set also had a load of contrived shit I suspect geeks were meant to spot, the Atari 2600 and the Commodore PET in their equipment graveyard, plus a load of plastic tat around their desks. Obviously they get some artistic licencing because having a few pc's and proliants cluttering up the place would be bloody dull too, but still, tone it down a bit eh.

Yeeessssss, this is something I hated about it, the look. Not only is it so overwhelmingly bitty so your eyes are darting around looking at all the rainbow dross on the shelves and stuck to the walls but it, like the characters, is only really there to be nodded at and to relay a bland observation without any kind of emotional engagement.

Nod at the lady and her shoes and her periods and her boyfriends. Nod at the sad nerdy man. Look, he's a fucking nerdy man how depressing for him. Nerdy men can't get girls everyone knows that. Nod at the other nerdy man who is more at ease with his nerdiness. No saving him is there. He doesn't even mind that he's a nerd. You could even say he embraces it. Nod at the weird goth. Goths are weird. He's played by Noel fielding. Noel Fielding is weird. And he's portraying a weird goth. Look what we did there. Look at all these bobble heads. Do you recognise them? How about this cartoon print? These are obscure references that only the most dedicated of viewers will pick up on. People in the know. Wink. It's like a tv show version of the I-Spy books

[Cold Meat Platter]

Yeeessssss, this is something I hated about it, the look. Not only is it so overwhelmingly bitty so your eyes are darting around looking at all the rainbow dross on the shelves and stuck to the walls but it, like the characters, is only really there to be nodded at and to relay a bland observation without any kind of emotional engagement.

Nod at the lady and her shoes and her periods and her boyfriends. Nod at the sad nerdy man. Look, he's a fucking nerdy man how depressing for him. Nerdy men can't get girls everyone knows that. Nod at the other nerdy man who is more at ease with his nerdiness. No saving him is there. He doesn't even mind that he's a nerd. You could even say he embraces it. Nod at the weird goth. Goths are weird. He's played by Noel fielding. Noel Fielding is weird. And he's portraying a weird goth. Look what we did there. Look at all these bobble heads. Do you recognise them? How about this cartoon print? These are obscure references that only the most dedicated of viewers will pick up on. People in the know. Wink. It's like a tv show version of the I-Spy books

The background geek clutter was "crowdsourced" by Glinner on Twitter. He literally asked people for nerdy stuff to include in the set so it's not even supposed to be organically accumulated stuff, it's just "HEY RECOGNISE THIS FELLOW GEEKS?"

[Clownbaby]

The background geek clutter was "crowdsourced" by Glinner on Twitter. He literally asked people for nerdy stuff to include in the set so it's not even supposed to be organically accumulated stuff, it's just "HEY RECOGNISE THIS FELLOW GEEKS?"

Fuck me, that feeling radiates off it so obviously, I had even wondered the first time I saw IT Crowd is this just a load of calculated nerdy stuff that has nothing to do with the actual characters and creating a backdrop that reflects them cause it fucking feels like it and it seems like it is just that

[Dewt]

I think there are a lot of nerds who indiscriminately consume anything that is targeted at them (this is why Ready Player One is a thing) but the nerds in The IT Crowd don't really fit that mold so it's just another thing that makes everything feel disconnected and off. If Moss was a consumer nerd obsessed with Pop Vinyls or something it would make more sense, but he's more like the kind of nerd that died out in the 90s.

[Noodle Lizard]

Yeah, I suppose that's another thing to mention about its very "identity" - it's dated right from the start. From Channel 4's perspective, it's clearly aimed at this kind of "nerd" culture that started popping up among young people in the mid-2000s (see also: The Big Bang Theory), but it's written by someone whose only familiarity with nerds is, like you say, the kind of Warhammer nerd that died out in the 90s, so it's always treading this weird line trying to jam that kind of nerd into a mainstream sitcom when they themselves never became a particularly mainstream thing. Also Jen not having even the slightest clue about what the internet is or how to use a computer, despite being a 30-something in the mid-2000s - it's probably based on people Linehan met in the 90s.

Black Books may have elements that superficially date its universe - landlines/phone boxes, smoking indoors etc. - but the characters and situations themselves are timeless.

[rue the polywhirl]

Regarding the background objects in the IT Crowd set, I'm quite keen to know what exactly this rather unPC looking object is that is always sat behind Roy's desk and if it means IT crowd will have to be flagged for racism and sadly taken off Netflix.

[Clownbaby]

I think there are a lot of nerds who indiscriminately consume anything that is targeted at them (this is why Ready Player One is a thing) but the nerds in The IT Crowd don't really fit that mold so it's just another thing that makes everything feel disconnected and off. If Moss was a consumer nerd obsessed with Pop Vinyls or something it would make more sense, but he's more like the kind of nerd that died out in the 90s.

I think some kind of verbal mention of the collectibles would have helped with this being less nerd box-ticky. Roy n Moss buy loads of things and display them around the office right? Why don't they ever show any nerdy passion for the things? Maybe Linehan thought it would be too on the nose to actually show the lads collecting and actually doing the nerdy things that the scenery has you thinking they do, but just dumping it all there as messy decoration is the exact opposite, it's vague in that it's oddly disconnected from the characters' personalities and at the same time aggressively specific because many people will see something they recognise and feel a sort of fake connection to the show because they know what [INDIE GRAPHIC NOVEL] is too

[Dewt]

Also Jen not having even the slightest clue about what the internet is or how to use a computer, despite being a 30-something in the mid-2000s - it's probably based on people Linehan met in the 90s.

I'm not sure if she mentions it by name, but in the first episode (before she is disappointed by being put in the basement) she is basically saying "wow, a shiny office skyscraper, this is just like Ally McBeal!"

I think some kind of verbal mention of the collectibles would have helped with this being less nerd box-ticky. Roy n Moss buy loads of things and display them around the office right? Why don't they ever show any nerdy passion for the things? Maybe Linehan thought it would be too on the nose to actually show the lads collecting and actually doing the nerdy things that the scenery has you thinking they do, but just dumping it all there as messy decoration is the exact opposite, it's vague in that it's oddly disconnected from the characters' personalities and at the same time aggressively specific because many people will see something they recognise and feel a sort of fake connection to the show because they know what [INDIE GRAPHIC NOVEL] is too

I think this shows the biggest problem with it. After you sit down and think about who would have an environment like this, it's nobody. It's a little bit of several nerdy cultures combined into something that represents nobody and shows the writer doesn't know who they're writing about.

[Noodle Lizard]

I'm not sure if she mentions it by name, but in the first episode (before she is disappointed by being put in the basement) she is basically saying "wow, a shiny office skyscraper, this is just like Ally McBeal!"

She does, because people are fucking in the toilets.

While we're on the topic of incongruous or out-of-touch references, there's a bit towards the end of the run where she realizes she's become a "nerd" herself, and one example she gives is that she's started liking Guided By Voices. That always struck me as a very odd choice, as I'd never associated them with nerdy things at all and still can't quite make the connection. Even if it's the simple fact that they're a slightly "alternative" band with a cult following, surely They Might Be Giants or something would be a better bet. Perhaps I'm missing something.

[Dewt]

She does, because people are fucking in the toilets.

I forgot to finish the thought: "...and this is a good example of how dated the references are". But you seemed to infer that anyway so I think it made sense.

While we're on the topic of incongruous or out-of-touch references, there's a bit towards the end of the run where she realizes she's become a "nerd" herself, and one example she gives is that she's started liking Guided By Voices. That always struck me as a very odd choice, as I'd never associated them with nerdy things at all and still can't quite make the connection. Even if it's the simple fact that they're a slightly "alternative" band with a cult following, surely They Might Be Giants or something would be a better bet. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Yeah, absolutely. Same with there being Boards of Canada stuff around. It's hardly Duane Dibley music, it's more floppy-haired sensitive brooding dude music or stoner or anything other than a STANDARD NERD. TMBG would have been a much better choice. Weird Al. Even Talking Heads or Weezer would have made more sense because they look nerdy.

[Clownbaby]

She does, because people are fucking in the toilets.

While we're on the topic of incongruous or out-of-touch references, there's a bit towards the end of the run where she realizes she's become a "nerd" herself, and one example she gives is that she's started liking Guided By Voices. That always struck me as a very odd choice, as I'd never associated them with nerdy things at all and still can't quite make the connection. Even if it's the simple fact that they're a slightly "alternative" band with a cult following, surely They Might Be Giants or something would be a better bet. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Honestly for me IT Crowd has so many unintentionally fascinating layers of incongruity. It randomly zigzags between vague crappy broadness and confusingly specific-to-one-person observations. Linehan has some kind of history with Guided By Voices I guess, that he maybe egotistically assumed enough people watching would have the same association with that band as he does.

[Dewt]

Honestly for me IT Crowd has so many unintentionally fascinating layers of incongruity.

It's a lot more fun to analyse than to watch for me!

Linehan has some kind of history with Guided By Voices I guess,

I'm not surprised, I did wonder if it was a personal choice.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

I liked the Tom Waits-esque theme tune.

[Dewt]

They cloned Doeo as a reference on one of the DVD extras. I was friendly with the creator of that game for a while, we were working on some stuff together (and I was trying to port Doeo to iPhone in the early days of the platform before giving up). Naturally they didn't ask permission or inform him at all.

[rue the polywhirl]

The single worst episode of Black Books I felt was the Big Lock Out in S1 where they put a massive unrealistic security system for the shop. Really over-the-top and generically cartoony in a way that doesn't ring true with the rest of the show and then you have Manny failing to remember a 1000 digit security code relayed by the installer because he has subbuteo player stuck in his hair, which feels like a very mundane Seinfeldian plot device ('he had a subbuteo player in his hair!' 'what do you mean he had a subbuteo player in his hair, Jerry?' 'I mean he a subbuteo player stuck in his hair!') which helps make for a completely unconvincing extreme mish mash of styles. The writing of Fran the character feels zero-dimensional at this point, in this episode she is exclusively a frig machine. The episode also happens to have Bernard wandering the streets being homeless in a really contrived way and lo and behold there's an episode of IT crowd where Roy is ejected from Denholm office without a shirt or jacket and is wandering around homeless after a very contrived sequence of events.

[jobotic]

I always thought the Guided By Voices thing was Glinehan showing off his record collection.

And that this post was me showing off my familiarity with Guided By Voices.

[Endicott]

- It doesn't feel "nice" (which is a terribly reductive way of putting it, but there you go). While Black Books features Bernard (and other characters) casually bullying, manipulating and outright abusing others, the characters themselves are so well-drawn and "likeable" (if not sympathetic) that you're almost rooting for them in spite of how horrible they are. In The IT Crowd, it often feels just grim and unpleasant, like Roy's plot with the woman who'd been in an accident or pretty much any of Matt Berry's plots. At no point do you ever feel like you're on their side, whereas with Bernard you kind of want him to succeed, whilst also sympathising with Manny and everyone else he assaults with his personality. I'd say Fran comes closest to an IT Crowd character in terms of being obnoxious and pathetic without the charm to negate it, which is why I think her plots often work the least well.

I'm agreeing, but to add also; Fran is the mitigating personality in Bernard's life, she stops him being a complete cunt. She forces him to hire Manny, among other interventions. I don't really get the Fran negativity I've read in this thread. I don't think she's any better drawn than Jen from IT Crowd, mind.

[imitationleather]

She does, because people are fucking in the toilets.

While we're on the topic of incongruous or out-of-touch references, there's a bit towards the end of the run where she realizes she's become a "nerd" herself, and one example she gives is that she's started liking Guided By Voices. That always struck me as a very odd choice, as I'd never associated them with nerdy things at all and still can't quite make the connection. Even if it's the simple fact that they're a slightly "alternative" band with a cult following, surely They Might Be Giants or something would be a better bet. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Yes it's an extremely crap reference that doesn't work at all. They were chosen purely because they are Graham Linehan's favourite band.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

The single worst episode of Black Books I felt was the Big Lock Out in S1 where they put a massive unrealistic security system for the shop.

Worse than the bit where they hide at a fully stocked bar, underneath a restaurant table?

[rue the polywhirl]

Worse than the bit where they hide at a fully stocked bar, underneath a restaurant table?

Much worse. I quite like that gag. More creatively silly and really heightens the fact that they are desperate to get away from Manny's parents. You could say it's just a reflection of what the characters are feeling rather than a character decision to commission an impenetrable metal fortress for the shop.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

The single worst episode of Black Books I felt was the Big Lock Out in S1 where they put a massive unrealistic security system for the shop. Really over-the-top and generically cartoony in a way that doesn't ring true with the rest of the show and then you have Manny failing to remember a 1000 digit security code relayed by the installer because he has subbuteo player stuck in his hair, which feels like a very mundane Seinfeldian plot device ('he had a subbuteo player in his hair!' 'what do you mean he had a subbuteo player in his hair, Jerry?' 'I mean he a subbuteo player stuck in his hair!') which helps make for a completely unconvincing extreme mish mash of styles. The writing of Fran the character feels zero-dimensional at this point, in this episode she is exclusively a frig machine. The episode also happens to have Bernard wandering the streets being homeless in a really contrived way and lo and behold there's an episode of IT crowd where Roy is ejected from Denholm office without a shirt or jacket and is wandering around homeless after a very contrived sequence of events.

0/10

[Artie Fufkin]

Mrs Fufkin & I recently rewatched the whole lot. Well, I rewatched, she watched.
I enjoyed it immensely. Everyone in the show is pretty horrid, apart from Manny.
Was nice to see a host of 'stars' making little cameos before they were proper famous, as it were. Walliams, Freeman etc.,
"I'm a sex robot from the future" is a line I'm always quoting.

[Jake Thingray]

....as drawn by Ronald Searle, then bought to life ( always got to get that bit in.)

Hope you don't mind, luv, if I mention how Tamsin Greig once recalled the time, when she was a regular on The Archers playing posh twerp Brian Aldridge's rebellious daughter, attending a fans' meeting prior to her televisual fame, and on being introduced to the audience , one man took in her dark, angular, Sephardic appearance, shook his head in disappointment and said "No, no, no. You're meant to be blonde with a big arse"?

[Noodle Lizard]

The single worst episode of Black Books I felt was the Big Lock Out in S1 where they put a massive unrealistic security system for the shop

Worse than the bit where they hide at a fully stocked bar, underneath a restaurant table?

Both some of my favourites :(

[samadriel]

"I'm a sex robot from the future" is a line I'm always quoting.

Come on, that's "I'm a PROSTITUTE robot from the future"!

[SavageHedgehog]

I like(d) The IT Crowd (barring the largely dreadful 4th series), but I think it got popular by dint of it being a fairly rare traditional-but-not-overtly-naff sitcom in the post-Office landscape. It was also one of those mediocre-to-pretty-good UK sitcoms that got relatively popular in the US for some reason, where they declared it a work of rare genius (see also; Coupling).