Mazza is Thirty Fazza! Hazza Bazza, Mazza!

[popcorn]

Pointless is the wrong word I guess, but most of the side areas and actual challenge in the game are based around getting 100% in a level. Don't do this and you're skipping probably 70% of the content. Which is fine, but feels a little wasteful given how it's clearly designed around the player trying like buggery to get 100pts.

I must have completed it 3 or 4 times as a kid but never really bothered getting all the coins and flowers and that. All that stuff always felt like fun extra icing than the real meat of the game. Might feel differently if I played it now, I suppose, but it's not like the levels are vague and aimless if you're not chasing 100%.

[Consignia]

Hot take Number 2: Super Mario Brothers USA is the only of the two SMB2 contenders worthy of the title of the second in the series. It has more Mario DNA in it, and has sewed more DNA through the series than Lost Levels. The more maze like levels, variety of enemies and unique actions are far more of an evolution than harder version of previous game. The fact it was originally sold in Japan as Doki Doki Panic is not relevant to how it feels like a Mario game, and was indeed developed from a Mario prototype. In fact, I'd go as far to say the fact Doki Doki Panic exists is only kept up by forum bores who state "Actually SMB2 isn't really SMB2, it was actually Doki Doki Panic in Japan," even though everyone they state it to knows it. Japan itself has largely forgotten that version.

[Consignia]

Side note: I'm not calling anyone here a forum bore (especially not magval, who prompted me to mention SMB2/DokiDokiPanic), it's just something I've frequently observed from many years of causally visiting video game forums. Even as recent as last month when surfing forums for news on the Mario remake rumours.

[magval]

How do you separate a remake from a port?

Port looks and sounds more or less identical, remake has been remade, like Super Mario All-Stars. Also, it's promoted as being a new version of a classic thing.

So Resident Evil on Gamecube is a remake, but Resident Evil on PS3, PS4 and Switch is a port.

All-Stars has enough new about it in how it looks and sounds to be a remake, I think. Is it the first?

[Huxleys Babkins]

Consignia's talking about Land, not World. Land is very good and a step forward for handheld Marios. World is relatively uninspired and a huge step backward for the main console series.

How much you enjoy 3D World depends on whether you have other people to play through it with you. The whole game is designed around the possibility that there's going to be four of you blasting through it, with concessions made to the lowest-skilled members of your party, so it feels quite empty and baggy when you play it on your own.

3D Land is much tighter as it's designed for one player only.

I have really fond memories of 3D World as I played through it all with my son and we were laughing like loons all the way through. If anything I think I enjoyed it more than Odyssey as the multiplayer in that is complete dogshit.

[madhair60]

I must have completed it 3 or 4 times as a kid but never really bothered getting all the coins and flowers and that. All that stuff always felt like fun extra icing than the real meat of the game. Might feel differently if I played it now, I suppose, but it's not like the levels are vague and aimless if you're not chasing 100%.

I suppose it's the way that the hidden stuff in YI conveys absolutely no gameplay benefit besides 1-ups, which are available near-infinitely, whereas other Mario games will convey power-ups, suits etc. Yoshi's Island has the useable items but again their usefulness is fairly limited to locating red coins, etc.

I fucking love YI don't get me wrong.

[Blinder Data]

I have v fond memories of Sunshine. Hovering over the town and running over rooftops like a Mario Spiderman - great stuff.

Plus can it be argued the mini-challenge levels essentially set the tone for future levels of Mario games? CAN IT???

[Abnormal Palm]

Yeah, I did really enjoy the weirdness of Sunshine and the freedom of movement stuff. Also might be my favourite Mario for speedrunning. Check out the excellent Average Trey: https://youtu.be/oudZMniib08

I only ever had a Jap GC disc though on my Jap Wii so it was incomprehensible (Jap) and I didn't know how to proceed past a certain point. It felt pleasingly janky and unfinished.

[Consignia]

Sunshine is a flawed master piece. It brought loads to the table in terms of variety of levels and gameplay. Probably the biggest influence to Oddessey of the lot. But it's full of little niggles, like some glitchy Shines and if you don't get on with Fludd controls (I had a bit of a problem[nb]mechanically, as in personally hard to control[/nb] with them) it made it difficult as the whole game is designed around them. I still prefer it to 64, though.

Of course, I'm looking to the potential re-release on the Switch. It's longer overdue a re-evaluation, and the bigger Switch install base would really boost it.

[Kelvin]

I have v fond memories of Sunshine. Hovering over the town and running over rooftops like a Mario Spiderman - great stuff.

Plus can it be argued the mini-challenge levels essentially set the tone for future levels of Mario games? CAN IT???

Mario Sunshine has the best movement and fluidity of moveset out of any 3D Mario game. The level structure, missions, camera control and character design are bad or, in some cases, awful, but the fundamental process of getting around the environments is a complete joy and has never been surpassed in the series, imo - although controlling Mario in odyssey comes close.     

[Kelvin]

Sunshine is a flawed master piece. It brought loads to the table in terms of variety of levels and gameplay. Probably the biggest influence to Oddessey of the lot. But it's full of little niggles, like some glitchy Shines and if you don't get on with Fludd controls (I had a bit of a problem[nb]mechanically, as in personally hard to control[/nb] with them) it made it difficult as the whole game is designed around them. I still prefer it to 64, though.

Of course, I'm looking to the potential re-release on the Switch. It's longer overdue a re-evaluation, and the bigger Switch install base would really boost it.

Masterpiece? At least half the missions are confusing and/or frustrating nonsense. Maybe about a third of the shines are actually good fun, but the overwhelming majority are a complete slog. The "holiday" theming is nice and upbeat, but even the characters are charmless and annoying.

EDIT: Of all the games, though, it's the one that could most benefit from some fairly simple QoL improvements. 

[Consignia]

Well it's more of an expression that a detailed retrospective, maybe not enough emphasis on the flawed. It's been a long time since I played it, but watching some videos recently have made me long to have a version to play.

[What Doth Life?]

The "holiday" theming is nice and upbeat, but even the characters are charmless and annoying.

What about that old cunt version of Toad who shouts BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH when he talks? Pissed myself at the time at that.

https://youtu.be/jjnE4RRcqtk?t=8

[Kelvin]

I meant the stupid shell people and those big blue dildos. Baby Bowser started in that game, too, didn't he? Mark him up as an ponging dong, as well.

[Kelvin]

Enemy design is mostly horrible, too - although I suppose they deserve credit for at least trying a different look for the better known enemies. Later games all use the same designs, even years later, which is a bit boring.

Edit: those duckbilled fellas that flip you into the air are a delightful exception.

[What Doth Life?]

Enemy design is mostly horrible, too - although I suppose they deserve credit for at least trying a different look for the better known enemies. Later games all use the same designs, even years later, which is a bit boring.

Edit: those duckbilled fellas that flip you into the air are a delightful exception.

Let's see how delightful they are when you're on the third lap of Peach Beach, duck lover

[Bazooka]

I adore Sunshine, but that bit where you have to clean up outside the hotel/casino can eat shit.

[ImmaculateClump]

Poor Mario, worst birthday ever, just a load of nerds criticising his oeuvre. Not a cake in sight.

I'm hoping it's not too much of a clichéd contrarian hot take, but I really liked mario 2.
My mam bought it me for my birthday and it cost 60 quid or something and it was the first NES game I'd asked for and sort of bought with my own money, so maybe I was more invested than most.

It was a bit short and the "it was all a dream" bit at the end was a bit disappointing, but I totally fell in love with everything about that game. The whole concept of the dark world, all the different "special moves" for the characters, grabbing the keys, that scary face that would chase you.
It was a wonderful detour.
Mario 3, mario world, not as good, less interesting.

[magval]

I love it too, I just replayed it again last week and it is HARD. I'm happy for the things that originated in DDP to have been sort of 'adopted' by the main Mario canon of baddies, like Phanto, Shyguys and Birdo. The bosses were all shite but the main level traversal and the four character choices is cool.

What I found really cool once I got Doki Doki Panic running on an emulator, too, was that all the music (except the music that references the original, like the dark-world theme) was all already there. There's so much stuff in that game that became recognizably "Mario" that originally belonged to something else in the exact same format.

[Kelvin]

Mario 2 is generally liked, isn't it? Even if it's not widely considered better than subsequent 2D games, I don't think it's seen as a black sheep in the way Zelda 2 is, for example.

[Jerzy Bondov]

I love Mario Sunshine. When I realised you could spray the floor in front of you and dive onto it to slide along at high speed I did it all the time. Lovely little touch. And I loved the propeller attachment for blasting around the bay aimlessly, watching the spray. What a nice little tropical holiday it was. Apart from the fucking bagatelle machine bit or whatever that was JESUS CHRIST

[thelittlemango]

I loved Mario 2, mainly because I first played it as an arcade cabinet in Harvester and was really into Double Dragon at the time. Being able to choose a character and pick up and throw turnips at people felt familiar but also really refreshing.

What's the general consensus on Odyssey?

[madhair60]

It's amazing and one of the best games ever made

[Consignia]

Odyssey? I replayed it a couple of weeks ago, and loved it. A little less magic the second time round, the joy of discovering all the world has to offer can't be recreated, but it's packed experience.

I suppose how much tolerance you have for the large amount of moons might be a thing, but for me it was just a system which gave little rewards just exploring the world. So unless you are going for 100%, it's not really a mark against it.

[madhair60]

It's not a criticism I've ever understood.

[popcorn]

Odyssey is the biggest 3/5 I've ever played. Fun but I can't remember anything about it.

But I much prefer my Marios linear. Just wanna jump on platforms, in a straight line. Fucking loved the Sunshine bonus levels.

[Bazooka]

Odyssey is the biggest 3/5 I've ever played. Fun but I can't remember anything about it.

But I much prefer my Marios linear. Just wanna jump on platforms, in a straight line. Fucking loved the Sunshine bonus levels.

I think everyone who played Sunshine said to themselves or a mate, "I would love a whole game of the no backpack levels", and I loved the jetwash.

[Kelvin]

Odyssey is the biggest 3/5 I've ever played. Fun but I can't remember anything about it.

Odyssey's main quest - the ones indicated by the beams of light which take you to the main missions, triple moons and bosses - is superb; not a dud moment in the entire 5 or so hours it takes to roll credits. 5/5, imo. The problem is that, although a lot of the additional and endgame content is a lot of fun, probably at least half of the 800+ moons are just filler; repeated challenges, moons sat on rocks in the open, silly busy work with seeds... It just doesn't respect your time after a certain point, and if you want to 100% the game, or even clear out moons that aren't part of the main quest, you basically have to plough through a lot of dreck to get to the remaining highlights.

Nonetheless, that main quest might be the best 5 hours of any Mario game, so if nothing else, I'd always encourage people to play through the story.         

[madhair60]

I can see where you're coming from, but in my experience when I found some moons in the post-game I didn't want to do, so I just ignored them and found something else. You need, what, 500 to get the final final world? You can even just buy them with your coins if you want to. There's no reason to get 999 moons or whatever, you can make your own pace and find your own path to the end. I think it's brilliantly graceful and manages to avoid "checklist" style gameplay despite having a literal checklist!

[Consignia]

Completely agree, it lets you finish the game when you want to finish it. Can't be arsed with Koopa races? Just don't bother. Last playthrough I completed the hard bonus level (Darker side of the moon) before even visiting the second to world (Dark Side of the moon). And that was just a chilled playthrough exploring the levels rather than trying to make any targets.