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Old Doctor Who - Part 4

Started by Ambient Sheep, June 04, 2020, 11:02:35 PM

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crankshaft

Quote from: frajer on December 09, 2020, 12:12:19 PM
Always thought it so strange and a bit sad that Saward (correctly) loved the work Robert Holmes, but couldn't understand why his scripts worked so well.

This is my major beef with his work, both as a writer and an editor; he simply didn't seem to understand the show he was working on, and fills it with humourless, nihilistic run 'n guns. Doctor Who can be one of these at a time, sometimes two if you're very careful. But not all three.

Norton Canes

Pint with Bidmead every time. Saward is like Colin Robertson the Energy Vampire out of What We Do In The Shadows, he seems to suck the joy from everything.

A couple of years ago a mate of mine had a clear-out and gave me his almost complete collection of Doctor Who Monthly magazines from 2005 onwards. I read through them all but eventually realised they were taking up too much space, so passed them on to another friend. The only issues I kept were a few of the specials and the one with the Bidmead interview where he thumps the arms of his chair while decrying RTD as a 'first draft' writer. Fantastic.

Norton Canes

Quote from: crankshaft on December 09, 2020, 11:58:15 AM
In the end, if it came down to a pint with Saward or a pint with Bidmead, I'd choose JN-T and hope he'd leave Gary at home

Keep an eye on your shoelaces.

Norton Canes

I may have linked to this before, but here's a brilliant analysis of Saward's dialogue: Dialogue, Sawardese and Resurrection of the Daleks (1984)

Replies From View

Quote from: Norton Canes on December 09, 2020, 12:33:38 PM
Keep an eye on your shoelaces.

Is this what people notoriously say before messing with your drink?

If so I now know to avoid them, so thank you.

Gurke and Hare

Quote from: Norton Canes on December 09, 2020, 12:22:19 PM
The only issues I kept were a few of the specials and the one with the Bidmead interview where he thumps the arms of his chair while decrying RTD as a 'first draft' writer. Fantastic.

DWM have actually printed anything critical of new Who since 2005? Blimey.

Replies From View

Anyone know which issues feature the back and forths between Bidmead and others?

Phil_A

Quote from: Gurke and Hare on December 09, 2020, 01:12:54 PM
DWM have actually printed anything critical of new Who since 2005? Blimey.

The previous editor Tom Spilsbury allegedly quit because Worldwide weren't happy with the magazine's somewhat less than positive reviews of Class (remember Class? What were all that about?).

There was also the business with Nicholas "The Watcher" Pegg's "fuck-you and goodbye" column after he found out he was getting the boot, which contained the hidden message "PANINI AND BBC WORLDWIDE ARE CUNTS"

Thomas

I buy DWM occasionally (very rarely these days, probably only once this year), and all negative critical energy seems to be concentrated into mildly lamenting 2010's colourful Daleks.

frajer

Took out a digital subscription to DWM when it was crazy cheap (worked out a couple of quid per issue) and it's... okay. The articles on Classic Who definitely make it worthwhile.

To be honest I'm just glad they shitcanned the Time Team, as it turns out showing a load of teenagers TV from 40 - 50 years ago and asking them to pass judgement was exactly as you'd expect it to be, and worse.

Norton Canes

Quote from: Replies From View on December 09, 2020, 12:55:37 PM
Is this what people notoriously say before messing with your drink?

If so I now know to avoid them, so thank you

It's from an anecdote in Richard Marston's JN-T biography. Then DW Bulletin editor Gary Leigh visited Nathan-Turner and Downie in the production office and while the producer was talking to him, his associate was under the desk tying his shoelaces to the table leg.

pigamus

Quote from: frajer on December 09, 2020, 11:07:07 AM
Ah yeah, that was very satisfying to read.

Bidmead always comes across like he thinks he's the only one who "got" Doctor Who. For my money he seemed insistent on sucking the joy out of it. I know Logopolis is respected, and its funereal tone is interesting, but it's also a joyless maths-based slog and a poor swansong for the most eccentric and gloriously odd of Doctors.

Season 18 appeals to melancholy types like me, I think. Pretentious types too - the same people who can't stand Warriors' Gate probably can't stand Ghost Light either but I love both, and I also love Logopolis even though I'm not sciency or mathsy in the slightest. It's such a weird atmosphere, because they're trying to have a revamp but Tom's still there, so it's very awkward, but that's what makes it interesting. Outside of "my" seasons 25 and 26 I think it's my favourite season, but I can see why people hate it.

frajer

Quote from: pigamus on December 09, 2020, 02:19:46 PM
Season 18 appeals to melancholy types like me, I think. Pretentious types too - the same people who can't stand Warriors' Gate probably can't stand Ghost Light either but I love both, and I also love Logopolis even though I'm not sciency or mathsy in the slightest. It's such a weird atmosphere, because they're trying to have a revamp but Tom's still there, so it's very awkward, but that's what makes it interesting. Outside of "my" seasons 25 and 26 I think it's my favourite season, but I can see why people hate it.

Yeah I don't mind Season 18 either. Definitely not the version of Who I grew up with (I mostly saw and loved the Pertwee and Baker VHS releases) but an interesting alternative. Warriors' Gate is an absolute cracker.

There's just something about the po-facedness of Logopolis and seeing how morose Baker is (I know from the Blu-rays he's not blameless in that) makes it quite an unenjoyable watch. I don't think the companions help. Nothing against the actors but Adric, Tegan and Nyssa make for a dispiriting TARDIS crew.

pigamus

Funnily enough I think Adric works weirdly well with Tom. I know Tom despised him but it doesn't show on screen. Another reason why I love Logopolis. The keyboard coming out of the console! The TARDISES inside TARDISES! All that stuff with the Watcher! That hilarious bit where Tom stands there aghast when Tegan starts shouting at him! I just lap that shit up.

Quote from: Phil_A on December 09, 2020, 01:33:56 PM
The previous editor Tom Spilsbury allegedly quit because Worldwide weren't happy with the magazine's somewhat less than positive reviews of Class (remember Class? What were all that about?).

Would happily take another series of Class over another Chibnall series of Who.

frajer

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on December 09, 2020, 04:05:17 PM
Would happily take another series of Class over another Chibnall series of Who.

Ended on a genuinely intriguing cliffhanger too (the idea of a
Spoiler alert
modern-day group of powerful suit-types working for and being influenced by the Weeping Angels felt like it could have been interesting).
[close]

Replies From View

Quote from: pigamus on December 09, 2020, 02:41:43 PM
Funnily enough I think Adric works weirdly well with Tom. I know Tom despised him but it doesn't show on screen.

Because it was drowned out by how much Lalla Ward also disliked Matthew Waterhouse.

frajer

Quote from: Replies From View on December 09, 2020, 04:46:26 PM
Because it was drowned out by how much Lalla Ward also disliked Matthew Waterhouse.

Oof, yes. She's ice-cold whenever asked about him on the DVDs, which seems unfair given his youth, and being given a role he was completely unprepared for.

The Season 18 Blu-ray catch-up with Toby Hadoke and Waterhouse is lovely.

Deanjam

Quote from: frajer on December 09, 2020, 04:52:21 PM
The Season 18 Blu-ray catch-up with Toby Hadoke and Waterhouse is lovely.

Yes, it was terrific. Turns out he's a big fan of Dark Shadows and Graham Greene, so he can't be too bad. My favourite Waterhouse anecdote is him giving acting tips to a bemused Richard Todd on Kinda. I can absolutely see how he would irritate some people, but he was very young and all young people are irritating at some point.

Put me down for enjoyed series 18 too. Warrior's Gate has a lovely dream quallity to it.

Deanjam

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on December 09, 2020, 04:05:17 PM
Would happily take another series of Class over another Chibnall series of Who.

Was Class actually any good then? Not 'it's good compared to Chibnall' good. But in its own right. It seemed to get an absolute shitcanning at the time so I never bothered with it.

Quote from: Deanjam on December 09, 2020, 05:02:12 PM
Was Class actually any good then? Not 'it's good compared to Chibnall' good. But in its own right. It seemed to get an absolute shitcanning at the time so I never bothered with it.

I thought it was a good fun, violent romp in the Whoniverse. Think the Sarah Jane Adventures, but with gore and shagging. I wouldn't call it brilliant or a must-see, it certainly doesn't do much world building for the parent show, but it was entertaining enough, it hit the "adult" marks far better than Torchwood did, and, as frajer says, the cliffhanger left me feeling rather disappointed it wasn't picked up for a second series.

crankshaft

Quote from: Deanjam on December 09, 2020, 05:00:37 PM
Yes, it was terrific. Turns out he's a big fan of Dark Shadows and Graham Greene, so he can't be too bad. My favourite Waterhouse anecdote is him giving acting tips to a bemused Richard Todd on Kinda. I can absolutely see how he would irritate some people, but he was very young and all young people are irritating at some point.

Put me down for enjoyed series 18 too. Warrior's Gate has a lovely dream quallity to it.

If you've not read Matthew's memoir Blue Box Boy I can highly recommend it. The audio version is at https://whatnoiseproductions.bandcamp.com/album/blue-box-boy and I think you can get the e-book in the usual places.

purlieu

I love Warriors Gate and Logopolis, but very little else in 18. The Leisure Hive is a particular low point for me, a story I just can't enjoy on any level. Meglos has a certain WTF factor that appeals, especially the seemingly random fellow from Earth, but I can't cope with it as a full two hours.

Class had a lot of potential, and squandered much of it on teen angst, in the hope that teen angst is what teenagers want to watch. I dunno, maybe it is. I could just do without them all moping and arguing half the time. There were good ideas in there, but some very bad writing. I'm going to end up listening to the audios at some point so I'll probably rewatch the series when I get to them.

pigamus

I agree about The Leisure Hive. State of Decay would probably have worked better in 1977, it doesn't quite fit the 1980 aesthetic, but it's still...interesting. And people say Keeper ofTraken is boring but I don't agree, I always really enjoy it.

Replies From View

What's with the giant jelly babies in The Leisure Hive?  I know it's because the fourth Doctor was into his jelly babies, but why were there giant ones just standing around in that place?

My favourite Logopolis bit is when the companions all react at ever so slightly different times to him falling.

Season 18 is probably my least favourite iteration of Baker. The wacky races of Season 17 is more fun. Baker's early years are typically wonderful. This is overwrought and doesn't have any spark.

Quote from: Replies From View on December 09, 2020, 09:38:09 PM
What's with the giant jelly babies in The Leisure Hive?  I know it's because the fourth Doctor was into his jelly babies, but why were there giant ones just standing around in that place?

They're just meant to be Argolin statues, really.

purlieu

Doctor Who Takes a Trip Strange England by Simon Messingham


Actually, Doctor Who Takes a Trip isn't the least accurate description of this book. The first two-thirds is a full-on onslaught of WTF moments with plenty of body horror. The TARDIS crew lands in sleepy Victorian England, where a man is absorbed by a tree, a girl is killed by a furry dragonfly attaching itself to her vocal chords, various half-human demons kill off the members of a large household, a shapeshifting man called The Quack turns into a floating steam train to try and kill people, and Ace and a farmer are sucked into the ground and spewed out in a place that's the same yet strangely different. Throw in a finale which takes place in a post-apocalyptic desert landscape populated by rivers of burning oil and demonic monks organising a crucifixion, and the whole book does a good job of confusing and unsettling the reader with plenty of vividly strange and horrible imagery.

Which would all work if Messingham was a good writer. However, the prose is clumsy - in the first chapter he uses 'melancholy' as an adjective to describe three different things on the same page - and the plotting is flimsy. The fact that the valley in which the main story is set is actually a TARDIS - an idyllic construction created for an ageing Time Lady to live out her remaining life after losing the ability to regenerate - is nice, and the revelation that everything goes on because the program was corrupted by the arrival of our regulars - that The Doctor, Ace and Benny were the direct cause of all the monsters - is really good. But it doesn't tie together. The various horrible things that happen near the start have no real logic or purpose other than to be horrible. The entire subplot where Ace is captured by a horrible bully whose aim is to take revenge on God (??) is utterly terrible, in that it makes little sense and Ace is far, far too easily subdued. The TARDIS crew feel like broad, vague interpretations of themselves. Even though it's clear who they're intended to be, there's very little personality in the dialogue. And the prologue and interlude, which feature a nameless white haired lady who tells a friend, Lady Edith, the story of what happened... well, they don't resolve or get explained or have any bearing on the main story. For most of the book I assumed it was an elderly Ace, and this would be the point she left, but apparently not. I think we're meant to assume it's Charlotte, but it's not clear at all, and the two short chapters add nothing to the story at all.

There's a really good book at the heart of Strange England - some memorably strange and vivid images, a great headfuck of a mystery, a striking location - but it feels at least two drafts away from completion. It's so very clearly a debut novel, and Messingham's prose improves over the course of the book itself, and it's a shame that he simply didn't have the skill to come close to doing his imagination justice.

M-CORP

I know it's Christmas Day and we all have better things to be doing so no-one will see this right away, quite right too. I just wanted to say that I watched The Caves of Androzani for the first time in a while this week. God, it's so good. Wouldn't say it's the best story ever, or even that such a plaudit can be awarded, but as I watched it I was gripped by Graeme Harper's direction - yes, some aspects of it have inevitably dated, but some parts remain just as current and jaw-dropping, particularly the chase scene in part 4, Jesus Christ, those whip-pans! The cliffhangers... The final confrontation between Jek and Morgus... And I've always liked when Stotz's voice echoes in the wind during a tense bit in part 2 ('Come on, BITE! BITE!')

The performances as well - Christopher Gable always has the viewer's attention, John Normington's deadpan delivery is very weird but all the more unnerving for it, and very funny at times; I still laugh whenever he says 'How sad.' with such sincerity. :)

And of course, the script by Robert Holmes... One might say it's Robert Holmes by numbers, but it's Robert Holmes, a truly individual voice and a damn good writer. No-one else could do the sort of poetic dialogue, plus the correct balance of black humour and ballsy horror like he did. I was watching utterly awe-struck at the plotting and how it moves long, how events are so subtly interconnected with each other, how so much is implied rather than spoon-fed. That and the characterisation - no-one is a straight-up one-dimensional villain out to do evil - they have realistic and relatable motivations (e.g. Sharaz Jek letting the Doctor go with Stotz to Androzani Major simply because he's preoccupied with finding Peri.) The Doctor might not be the most interesting character in the story, but he does affect everything that occurs, and it is a heroic way for Peter Davison to go out, even if the regeneration aspect feels rather minor.

I'd just forgotten how good it was. I remembered it being good, but I thought the novelty would wear off. No chance... Merry Christmas all!

Deanjam

Merry Christmas!

It's a great story, easily the best of the 80s. Davison himself said that if he'd had more stories like this he would've stayed on in the role. Even Peri is tolerable in this one, though I'd have preferred a couple of stories with just 5 and Turlough once Tegan left.