Main Menu

Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 03:11:25 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Sino-Indian border.

Started by bgmnts, June 12, 2020, 11:39:55 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

bgmnts

https://thediplomat.com/2020/06/what-is-china-saying-about-the-china-india-border-stand-off/

It seems the tension has been escalating with China being quite aggressive, annexing up to 60km of Indian territory.

All a bit mental really. With Palestine being under threat and with this border dispute, are we going to see two big wars in the next few years or significant changes to world maps?

Pijlstaart

It would be a hill war, through treacherous hills, so there's a lot of scope for being rolled down. Very hairy men round there, big mutton consumption, so not sure many would want to get involved. For myself, the border regions don't matter, and indeed I don't pay attention to them, what matters is that the bulk of the country remains a pleasing shape to me, and so long as India has the main triangle bit, I wouldn't worry about the rest.

evilcommiedictator

It's a "war" where the bits of land of interest are the bits where you can actually move trucks through, the rest being fucking frosted hill country where no-one lives. China doesn't require people who live around there to have passports to enter China s they consider them Chinese citizens, which means of course, the Indian government forces them to get passports to visit China

shh

India already had some planes shot down by a Chinese-Pakistani jet last year, and had to make up some cobblers about a US F-16 to save face. I don't think they could handle the real mccoy.
The question is more what India will have to concede to get the troops out. They are part of Britain's proposed 'D10 club' to unseat huawei...


Strategic and otherwise meaningless propaganda for both sides to replenish their nationalism meters a bit.

Terrible lot to be a soldier and have to die for this stuff.

Blinder Data

I only just learned that firearms and explosives are banned in the area due to a bilateral agreement. This means 20 Indian soldiers and an unknown number of Chinese soldiers were killed by improvised weapons! There are images of nail-studded rods circulating. Brutal.

Kryton

Quote from: Blinder Data on June 18, 2020, 12:20:41 PM
I only just learned that firearms and explosives are banned in the area due to a bilateral agreement. This means 20 Indian soldiers and an unknown number of Chinese soldiers were killed by improvised weapons! There are images of nail-studded rods circulating. Brutal.

From what I've gathered. A small group of Indian soldiers stumbled across a Chinese patrol who apparently shouldn't have been there.

EDIT: The Indians were destroying apparently illegal camps and buildings.

The patrol leader tried to diffuse the situation but was pushed off a ledge to his death, then the Indians were set upon by the larger Chinese group - armed with barbed wire batons. During this melee several Indians were beaten to death / pushed to their death (and some fled into some water to escape). Several Indians were captured.

Roughly two hours later, a second Indian group arrived and joins in the fight armed with bats and hockey sticks (whilst Chinese helicopters appeared). At some point the ridge they were fighting on collapsed and that's where most of the Chinese casualties occurred. By this time it was pretty much complete darkness.

The Indians then manage to recover several of the kidnapped Indian soldiers and dragged them to safety.

Crazy.

EDIT: I should add, apparently this skirmish went on for hours, with Indian soldiers initially throwing rocks to defend themselves and a lot of the Indian casualties were a result of the environment, such as freezing to death, falling to their death etc. Some died of their injuries on the way back to base.


bgmnts

Do you have a link to this info?

Quote from: Kryton on June 18, 2020, 12:29:03 PM
From what I've gathered. A small group of Indian soldiers stumbled across a Chinese patrol who apparently shouldn't have been there.

EDIT: The Indians were destroying apparently illegal camps and buildings.

The patrol leader tried to diffuse the situation but was pushed off a ledge to his death, then the Indians were set upon by the larger Chinese group - armed with barbed wire batons. During this melee several Indians were beaten to death / pushed to their death (and some fled into some water to escape). Several Indians were captured.

Roughly two hours later, a second Indian group arrived and joins in the fight armed with bats and hockey sticks (whilst Chinese helicopters appeared). At some point the ridge they were fighting on collapsed and that's where most of the Chinese casualties occurred. By this time it was pretty much complete darkness.

The Indians then manage to recover several of the kidnapped Indian soldiers and dragged them to safety.

Crazy.

EDIT: I should add, apparently this skirmish went on for hours, with Indian soldiers initially throwing rocks to defend themselves and a lot of the Indian casualties were a result of the environment, such as freezing to death, falling to their death etc. Some died of their injuries on the way back to base.

This is the jingoistic pro-Indian take on what happened, to be clear.

Not surprisingly, the Chinese and Indian accounts differ greatly.

Kryton

Quote from: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on June 18, 2020, 05:34:16 PM
This is the jingoistic pro-Indian take on what happened, to be clear.

Not surprisingly, the Chinese and Indian accounts differ greatly.

Of course accounts differ. I wasn't being jingoistic at all.

This is from reading things on both sides. China brought vehicles and built structures in areas they shouldn't have been.

I've not just taken info from one source here - but it does seem likely China did overstretch their intrusion on the border.

China are trying to cover things up by not mentioning the helicopters or the weapons used, or even the numbers of dead. Just 'casualty' numbers.

The Indian Commander was killed after destroying the Chinese settlement or whatever it was when the patrol was suddenly met with 200+ Chinese soldiers. The Indians were outnumbered, got attacked and some were captured. Later a second group of Indians rescued some of the captives and tried to fend off the larger group. Apparently the ledge collapsed and that's apparently where the majority of Chinese casualties occurred.

I even mentioned a lot of the deaths were as a result of the elements. How is that jingoistic?

---

But feel free to correct me, I'm not saying it's all absolutely correct - Just what I've gathered in the two days I've been reading about it from a ton of different sources. If China was less secretive, I'd be able to explore what they were saying happened.

Kryton

Quote from: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on June 18, 2020, 05:34:16 PM
This is the jingoistic pro-Indian take on what happened, to be clear.

Not surprisingly, the Chinese and Indian accounts differ greatly.

So, again tell me what you've read that differs? Are you saying the Indians were in Chinese territory? Did the Indians attack first?

Kryton

I should also add this isn't the first of the clashes. There's videos on Liveleak of bound up Chinese soldiers and there's videos of injured Indian soldiers. So it's probably culminated in the latest clash.

Quote from: Kryton on June 18, 2020, 06:11:19 PM
Of course accounts differ. I wasn't being jingoistic at all.

I wasn't accusing you of being jingoistic, just that the sources you are culling from are inevitably jingoistic. There are plenty of Chinese accounts on social media that describe the Indian forces as the conscious aggressors.

It isn't possible for anyone to claim with any authority what actually happened. Given two competing propagandas, I guess I am generally more inclined to disbelieve the Indian sources given the current government in India and that government's repeated uses of propagandistic military skirmishes to stoke nationalist fervor.

@CarlZha is usually an interesting follow in Twitter for a pro-China (or rather anti-anti-China) take on things. He has a detailed podcast episode on the origin of this border dispute.

But who do we believe? There's only one way to find out - fiiiiiiiiight!











Oh, right. Yeah.

Kryton

Quote from: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on June 18, 2020, 08:15:42 PM
I wasn't accusing you of being jingoistic, just that the sources you are culling from are inevitably jingoistic. There are plenty of Chinese accounts on social media that describe the Indian forces as the conscious aggressors.

It isn't possible for anyone to claim with any authority what actually happened. Given two competing propagandas, I guess I am generally more inclined to disbelieve the Indian sources given the current government in India and that government's repeated uses of propagandistic military skirmishes to stoke nationalist fervor.

@CarlZha is usually an interesting follow in Twitter for a pro-China (or rather anti-anti-China) take on things. He has a detailed podcast episode on the origin of this border dispute.

Sorry if it took it the wrong way, I was trying to be balanced. Genuinely interested in hearing about other views on the conflict. I did take those parts from lots of different media and tried to fill out the picture - like I said China is being quiet.

I'll have a look on twitter, thanks for the link.

Chedney Honks

Hard not to conclude that WW3 is coming in 2020 hahaha

Kryton

Quote from: Chedney Honks on June 18, 2020, 08:26:02 PM
Hard not to conclude that WW3 is coming in 2020 hahaha

To be fair, it's good that this was a melee rather than a shoot out. The agreement was no guns. I imagine the reason behind this is so snipers can't randomly shoot each other on either side, at least with a fist-fight there's some kind of integrity and validation, even if it is skewed.

But yeah, things are a bit.... 2020.

Paul Calf

The sticks they were using are lathis. They're carried by all soldiers and police in India and are regularly used to beat criminals/suspects/people who won't pay bribes.



I'm hoping that this is just a regular incident blown out of proportion (border incidents aren't unusual in Kashmir and Sikkim) but it's 2020...

Kryton

The Chinese were apparently using spiked bats, I mean it could be propaganda but some of the soldiers on the Indian side were apparently mutilated.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-53089037

Kryton

This is interesting and supports the idea that China were building structures / moving equipment as I mentioned previously.

https://graphics.reuters.com/INDIA-CHINA/BATTLE/yxmvjkzxwpr/index.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=twitter

seepage

Quote from: Kryton on June 19, 2020, 10:22:16 AM
The Chinese were apparently using spiked bats.

is chemical warfare allowed?

Quote from: Kryton on June 19, 2020, 10:22:16 AM
The Chinese were apparently using spiked bats, I mean it could be propaganda but some of the soldiers on the Indian side were apparently mutilated.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-53089037

Neither the Sun nor the BBC sadly are reliable sources for anything involving China.

Quote from: Kryton on June 19, 2020, 11:10:46 AM
This is interesting and supports the idea that China were building structures / moving equipment as I mentioned previously.

https://graphics.reuters.com/INDIA-CHINA/BATTLE/yxmvjkzxwpr/index.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=twitter

"Possible debris"

Good fucking lord, it's like the run up to Iraq all over again! These people are shameless.

Mr Farenheit

Quote from: Kryton on June 18, 2020, 12:29:03 PM
At some point the ridge they were fighting on collapsed

Did that really happen?
It sounds like the Billy Connolly country and western song