Author Topic: Hitman  (Read 2009 times)

Re: Hitman
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2020, 07:14:14 AM »
I used to hate Colarado, but it's probably the best level to practice your sniping and stealth kills, as it's bloody hard. But getting through it without being caught or seen is an incredible feeling.

My least favourite is Morocco.

Both of them are my least favourites from that game. The "proper" Morocco mission is probably my least favourite, but I liked the additional one set in the same map. Colorado is just dull, to me. Visually boring, boring targets, and having a map which is basically one big restricted military area just doesn't interest me as much as ones like Sapienza, which feel a lot more naturalistic and actually make you want to explore the diverse options available to you (although that level really is let down by having to do that stupid underground lab bit as well).

Re: Hitman
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2020, 07:30:07 AM »
By the way, this Scottish fella's comedic Hitman playthroughs/challenges are consistently quite entertaining: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN4Ukw-InK4

buttgammon

  • How thick is wall?
Re: Hitman
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2020, 02:22:41 PM »
Both of them are my least favourites from that game. The "proper" Morocco mission is probably my least favourite, but I liked the additional one set in the same map. Colorado is just dull, to me. Visually boring, boring targets, and having a map which is basically one big restricted military area just doesn't interest me as much as ones like Sapienza, which feel a lot more naturalistic and actually make you want to explore the diverse options available to you (although that level really is let down by having to do that stupid underground lab bit as well).

I bloody hate Colorado, especially the escalations you have to do with the hacker disguise.

Zetetic

  • Worrying the carcass of an old song.
Re: Hitman
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2020, 04:06:37 PM »
I remember YouTube person Super Bunnyhop reviewing the 2016 one and referring to Kyd's previous scores as "egregious". I don't know if he was confused about what the word meant, or if he genuinely thinks Kyd's work is crap. Either way, it was a wrong thing to say.

In fairness, no-one knows what egregious means now.

Re: Hitman
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2020, 08:00:48 PM »
I once knew a man who did. He was killed for the change in his pocket.

Re: Hitman
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2020, 12:24:38 AM »
Quote
egregious
/ɪˈɡriːdʒəs/

adjective
1.
outstandingly bad; shocking.
"egregious abuses of copyright"

2.
ARCHAIC
remarkably good.

So its either really good or really bad.

H-O-W-L

  • Front Toward Enemy
Re: Hitman
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2020, 02:13:18 AM »
Thanks all. Gonna give Contracts and Blood Money a go, and maybe the latest one, after I've finished Absolution

Very surprised that Absolution isn't very highly rated, as I'm really enjoying it! I agree that the story is a bit weird though. It'd also be nice to actually get to kill some of the targets too, without it switching to a cut-scene of it happening

Be warned what I'm about to say will have mild spoilers.

See, the reason for this is that Absolution was basically a failed development cycle overall. They, at one point, had four beta builds of the same game made in completely different ways, at one point -- and it wasn't a case of them trying different things, it was because they had no idea how to proceed with the development. The reason it feels like a strange remixed level pack is because, in essence, it is. Near the end of dev, Squenix came in to find out where all the fucking money had gone since they had no full game to show for it, and they ended up finding out that the game was

1. completely incomplete, in several fragmented, differently-designed, differently-plotted, differently-paced variations, with several levels being completely different builds and being made for completely different iterations of the plot from the prior one and vice versa. For example if you've done the level where the hotel is on fire and 47 gets framed for a stabby he done didn't do, you'll probably remember the intro cutscene has a black policeman (a major character in the marketing) try and break into the room and yell at 47 to halt, only for him to disappear and be voiced over by a completely different (white) voice actor when gameplay resumes. That's because the cutscene and level are from two different builds.

2. absolutely unsellable and unmarketable because of a weird mixture of a lack of targets, a lack of gameplay, a lack of cutscenes to bridge plot, etc etc. The plot in its original forms (it went through like eight drafts minimum) was also truly atrocious. Actually execrable. the sexual and racial references were even stronger in the original drafts, and apparently the word "retarded" was used in the dozens of times in the script.

3. it featured graphic sexual assault of an underaged girl at one point. Victoria, 47's main protectee, was originally intended to be assaulted and murdered by Lenny and Wade shortly after the game started, with the graphic nature of what was shown differing based on what build of the game was primary at the time. this is why the first half seems like a nutter revenge story primarily. It went from seeing it in full (fucking hell!) to simply cuts of Victoria suffering with 47 looking grim while staring at a telly screen, to just shots of 47's face, before being cut entirely. This is why Victoria has very weird, ethereal lines in the main menus -- she was going to be a ghost that narrated the game in flashback after her death.  the really grim prostitute murder subplot was evidently much more graphic and there were several more sex-club related levels (including a gimp suit for 47 with a strap-on, concept art of which still exists on the internet), and this was going to tie into Victoria's original planned fate.

4. 47 was gonna pop himself in the head at the end of the story, because DARK. he was also going to be a big-bearded, penniless hobo at the start of the game and contacted by the ICA. he was also going to literally be a pillpopping alcoholic who cut himself. That's why he slashes his barcode -- he doesn't want to cut it off, it's literally self-harm because... dark?

5. there's large amounts of (mostly) unused dialogue for a horribly offensive Jewish stereotype who appears in the Hope levels (and I believe the arms factory level?). even in the final build all of his lines are absolutely horrific and very offensive, including an implication that Jewish people committed 9/11 to sell arms (yes.)

6. instead of being from 47's perspective, the primary original version of the game was going to be centered on Skurky, the paedophilic, bondage-obsessed sheriff, and 47, while still the main player character, was going to be an antagonist in the plot/cutscenes, with the plot picking up as 47 infiltrates Skurky's home to kill him, with environmental storytelling revealing that POOR SKURKY lost all his assets and everything he owned to his ex-wife. Several thousand man-hours and thousands of dollars were spent developing this plotline, as well as an incredibly intricate and deeply-designed NPC for Skurky's wife, only for her to ultimately in practice end up as a simple gun-turret, because she was also morbidly obese and confined to an (immobile) wheelchair. I believe you can still see her model in Hope. This is also why Skurky has an insane amount of screentime for how minor he is and why he has such a built-up death scene with fucking Ave Maria playing.

This is really just the surface layer of awful, there's a lot more intricate minute-to-minute awfulness and bugs and flaws with how the game was developed. The fact it exists, period, as a saleable product, is because when Squenix's brass entered the studio and found out what the fuck IOI had been doing, they started waving a gun around (metaphorically speaking) to get the game crunched down into a simple, linear plotline and try and make some sense of it.

So what was eventually sold on shelves isn't really the original "Hitman Absolution" IOI worked on -- that game never existed in one state -- it's actually Now That's What I Call The Best Choices Available For Hitman Absolution's Levels! so to speak. And yes, those are the best choices of level. The reason a lot of the targets are irrelevant and are never mentioned before the level they appear in is because of this -- they picked random NPCs, gave them names and blurbs, and told you to go'n git 'em.

Most of, if not all of, the IOI writing team got fucking fired for the execrable turd that was Absolution's massively over-developed final drafts, and only a few incidental writers were kept on for Hitman 2016. This is why Hitman 2016 has really good incidental dialogue and environmental dialogue and the like, and relatively flawed overall plotting.

Oh, and they wanted to replace David Bateson, as Agent 47, with William Mapother, purely because Mapother had recently starred in Lost. They recorded all of 47's lines with him, and all the mocap and facecap for cutscenes, before revealing it to fans --- who rightfully and resoundingly despised it. They despised it so much that a boycott was started and they had to bin Mapother's pointless inclusion.

Bateson publically spoke out about it mostly because Bateson is directly responsible for 47's growth and writing as a character (he was a generic cutout in the original scripts of Codename 47) in the prior Hitman games, and it's a role he really loves and has a lot of passion for -- he even plays the games religiously and, for Hitman 2's release, spoke to a lot of fan outlets and sent them personal messages and the like. Lovely chap. I spoke to him in passing on a livestream once and he seemed so personable and involved in the story.


Re: Hitman
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2020, 05:05:55 AM »
Really great post, thanks for that!

Yeah, I'd say that Absolution isn't an all-round awful game in and of itself, just a catastrophic disappointment as a follow-up to Blood Money, which I think really defined everything that was good about the franchise. They carelessly reversed a lot of that progress by introducing horribly linear missions (with a few exceptions) and awful action movie cheese, sometimes to the point where it seemed like they wanted you to go balls-out John Woo rather than "Silent Assassin". Hitman (2016) did a good job of undoing that damage by basically giving you options for more or less every style of play, with a slight emphasis on rewarding stealth and careful planning.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

  • High in the running for laziest worldwide.
Re: Hitman
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2020, 04:20:10 PM »
In fairness, no-one knows what egregious means now.
It turns out I'd misremembered. He actually called Kyd's work "Ghastly", but he seems to think that's a compliment.

Shameless Custard

  • PAUSE FOR THE JET
    • My RUBBISH
Re: Hitman
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2020, 04:23:24 PM »
Yeah, thanks for that Howl. A fascinating read

Re: Hitman
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2020, 05:19:54 PM »
Reading this thread has inspired me to go back and reinstall Hitman (PS4), three and a half years since I last played it.

Re: Hitman
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2020, 06:54:28 PM »

Re: Hitman
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2020, 06:56:50 PM »
Hahahaha fucking hell!

Re: Hitman
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2020, 08:28:47 AM »
This thread made me finally pick up a copy of Hitman 2 (the newest one). I’ve already done 5/6 of the new maps with a few methods. It’s ... fine. More of the same, really, and I haven’t been blown away by a map or a kill yet. A lot of the ones I’ve found myself pushed towards have been quite dull, actually - push someone down a hole, give someone an emetic and kill them while they’re vomming, rig an oxygen tank to explode when someone smokes near it etc. It also feels like they’ve become so proud of the convoluted ways to get to one of these underwhelming outcomes that they’ve also made it nigh on impossible to do old-fashioned assassin kills, with a sniper rifle or what-have-you. I know it’s not really the point, but I did like having the option.

Granted, I’ve only spent a day with it so far. I’m sure there’s plenty more to discover.

P.S. I bought the physical game new for $20 but it’s asking for $40 to get the two DLC levels on PS4 - is there a way around that?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 09:11:27 AM by Noodle Lizard »

Kryton

  • Disregard the Constabulary
Re: Hitman
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2020, 08:37:24 AM »
This thread made me finally pick up a copy of Hitman 2 (the newest one). I’ve already done 5/6 of the new maps with a few methods. It’s ... fine. More of the same, really, and I haven’t been blown away by a map or a kill yet. A lot of the ones I’ve found myself pushed towards have been quite dull, actually - push someone down a hole, give someone an emetic and kill them while they’re vomming, rig an oxygen tank to explode when someone smokes near it etc. It also feels like they’ve become so proud of the convoluted ways to get to one of these underwhelming outcomes that they’ve also made it nigh on impossible to do old-fashioned “Silent Assassin Suit Only” kills, with a sniper rifle or what-have-you. I know it’s not really the point, but I did like having the option.

Granted, I’ve only spent a day with it so far. I’m sure there’s plenty more to discover.

P.S. I bought the physical game new for $20 but it’s asking for $40 to get the two DLC levels on PS4 - is there a way around that?

You can do the silent kills, suit only methods - in fact there's rewards for doing so.

Re: Hitman
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2020, 09:16:42 AM »
Yeah, I took out the “suit only” part because that’s not especially important. I know it’s technically possible to do this, but the focus of the missions has become almost linear in some ways - they’ve basically designed multiple paths for you to follow, so you have a “choice”, but realistically you’re sort of on rails once you start down whichever road you choose. Maybe my memory of Blood Money and Contracts is slightly nostalgic, but I remember feeling like missions could play out more organically in those. Less “scripted” feeling, perhaps.

Kryton

  • Disregard the Constabulary
Re: Hitman
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2020, 12:12:12 PM »
Yeah, I took out the “suit only” part because that’s not especially important. I know it’s technically possible to do this, but the focus of the missions has become almost linear in some ways - they’ve basically designed multiple paths for you to follow, so you have a “choice”, but realistically you’re sort of on rails once you start down whichever road you choose. Maybe my memory of Blood Money and Contracts is slightly nostalgic, but I remember feeling like missions could play out more organically in those. Less “scripted” feeling, perhaps.

Oh, I see - I mean you can just accept those paths as examples and methods, but they're certainly far from being the only ways to kill the targets. In fact, half the fun is finding ways to kill them that aren't one of the many choices. The Paris level for example you can snipe both the targets without being seen and I don't think it's one of the 'paths'.

One of the best levels is the isle of Sgail , try doing that without being seen. Tricky but possible.
Try the player created contracts too!

Re: Hitman
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2020, 05:56:32 PM »
Oh yeah, I’m sure. I’m only complaining because there’s not too much else positive to say that I haven’t already said about Hitman 2016, which it’s basically an extension of. I was instantly impressed with some of the levels in 2016, less so here. The Miami one is probably my favourite so far. Looking forward to Sgail, mind.

Re: Hitman
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2020, 06:34:28 PM »
I enjoyed the PS4 Hitman 2 way more after doing the Mission Story kills. Apparently they added all these guided missions after some initial feedback. I understand they flesh out the world and create big set pieces, but from a player’s point of view, all you’re doing is following markers and instructions with a pretty much guaranteed result.

Re: Hitman
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2020, 07:13:54 PM »
I enjoyed the PS4 Hitman 2 way more after doing the Mission Story kills. Apparently they added all these guided missions after some initial feedback. I understand they flesh out the world and create big set pieces, but from a player’s point of view, all you’re doing is following markers and instructions with a pretty much guaranteed result.

Weren't the Mission Stories in Hitman 2016 too (albeit called "Opportunities" I think)? But yes, I agree with your second point. I'm not sure how many of those things people would have realistically figured out if it weren't for the walkthrough instructions (and certainly a real assassin would have to be psychic for any of it to work).[1] It breaks immersion somewhat and ends up making every level feel a bit like a tutorial. It's especially disappointing when the end result of many of them, no matter how elaborate the set-up, is just ending up alone in a toilet with a vomiting target again.

Seems like they like to highlight options that involve 47 dressing up/doing something stupid for meme potential as well. That's been a part of the game since Blood Money at least, but back then it was genuinely surprising and more like an absurd bonus, whereas now you just kind of expect it. Walk into a map, see someone in a flamingo suit: "aye that'll be me sooner or later". The Florida Man, the shaman thing ... I dunno.

I'm just moaning now. I do like it a lot and I'm having a lot of fun with it, it's just as impressive and ambitious as 2016, but I think we're still a ways off getting the new definitive Hitman. Granted, it's amazing we got anything at all after the whole Square Enix debacle, so I respect IOI a lot for getting it together so quickly.
 1. For instance, in the Columbia mission, if you want to go with the hippie cocaine smuggler disguise, you're going to spend a lot of time just trying to find some glue to glue back together the ornament he's hiding the coke in, which involves going to a store and then finding out he's sold the last of his glue to a mechanic next door who you'll have to subdue just to steal his tube of fucking glue before going anywhere else with it, and without the prompts you'd probably not even figure out that you need to find some glue in the first place. And that's before even using the disguise to infiltrate an area!

Kryton

  • Disregard the Constabulary
Re: Hitman
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2020, 10:00:18 PM »
Weren't the Mission Stories in Hitman 2016 too (albeit called "Opportunities" I think)? But yes, I agree with your second point. I'm not sure how many of those things people would have realistically figured out if it weren't for the walkthrough instructions (and certainly a real assassin would have to be psychic for any of it to work).[1] It breaks immersion somewhat and ends up making every level feel a bit like a tutorial. It's especially disappointing when the end result of many of them, no matter how elaborate the set-up, is just ending up alone in a toilet with a vomiting target again.

Seems like they like to highlight options that involve 47 dressing up/doing something stupid for meme potential as well. That's been a part of the game since Blood Money at least, but back then it was genuinely surprising and more like an absurd bonus, whereas now you just kind of expect it. Walk into a map, see someone in a flamingo suit: "aye that'll be me sooner or later". The Florida Man, the shaman thing ... I dunno.

I'm just moaning now. I do like it a lot and I'm having a lot of fun with it, it's just as impressive and ambitious as 2016, but I think we're still a ways off getting the new definitive Hitman. Granted, it's amazing we got anything at all after the whole Square Enix debacle, so I respect IOI a lot for getting it together so quickly.
 1. For instance, in the Columbia mission, if you want to go with the hippie cocaine smuggler disguise, you're going to spend a lot of time just trying to find some glue to glue back together the ornament he's hiding the coke in, which involves going to a store and then finding out he's sold the last of his glue to a mechanic next door who you'll have to subdue just to steal his tube of fucking glue before going anywhere else with it, and without the prompts you'd probably not even figure out that you need to find some glue in the first place. And that's before even using the disguise to infiltrate an area!

Yeah completely fair comments. Have you tried the escalations and such though?

Re: Hitman
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2020, 10:04:58 PM »
Yeah completely fair comments. Have you tried the escalations and such though?

Not on 2, just yet. I figured I'd just get through the whole thing with as many challenges as I'm willing to do before I get into that. I see they've added some multiplayer and campaign type modes which might be worth a try. I'm not regretting buying the game at all, there's clearly a ton of content and I think it's more than fair for the price - my complaints are entirely coming from a "Hitman was one of the first games I got into when I was 10 and Blood Money's one of my top 10 games of all time" standpoint.

I never quite understood the Elusive Targets disappearing forever after one attempt, though. That seems a bit wasteful, especially given how easy it is for everything to go wrong in an average attempt - sometimes due to bugs or dodgy AI rather than failures on the part of the player.

Re: Hitman
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2020, 08:24:36 AM »
Played through Sgail tonight. Incredible map, but bastard hard! I got Silent Assassin in the end, but it took about an hour and I had to load auto saves countless times - although a lot of those were due to me mistakenly thinking my disguise as the Master of Ceremonies was suspicious to everyone, took a good 10 mins of failed attempts to walk down to the ceremony before I realised it was actually because I still had a machine gun strapped to my back.

H-O-W-L

  • Front Toward Enemy
Re: Hitman
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2020, 11:52:19 AM »

I never quite understood the Elusive Targets disappearing forever after one attempt, though. That seems a bit wasteful, especially given how easy it is for everything to go wrong in an average attempt - sometimes due to bugs or dodgy AI rather than failures on the part of the player.

I've heard on the grapevine that IOI have understood how fucking monetarily wasteful this is, and since they're now doing H3 independent, they might not do ET's this time. I fucking hope they don't honestly. Total waste of assets, and since the ETs require an immense amount of scripting to fit into maps, as simple as they seem, it's even more wasteful than may be imminently evident.

Every Nu-Hitman map is an incredibly intricate work of clockwork, and there is really no better way to say than clockwork, since literally every element of every level interlocks and interfaces on some underlying degree no matter what it is-- this is why early in Hitman 2's release a lot of bugs surfaced after balance changes were made to maps, and why puking in toilets was broken for a fucking long time (might even still be?). So that's why ET's are so difficult, costly, and time-consuming to make.

I also believe it's their unspoken reason of why ET's are time-limited: they don't want people to batter them 24/7 with messy, bug-inducing player interaction and unravel all the clockwork. You only really learn of bugs in games development, in most circumstances, by sheer saturation of players and playtime. This is why a lot of bugs slip past QA, along with the nature of bugs being time-consuming.

The latter ET's for Hitman 2016, where they were adding more complex objectives to avoid people doing them in 30seconds via simple tricks, started to unravel and run like total shit as a result. I remember failing my only failed contract in H2016 because I was waved into an area in Bangkok by guards, while wearing a disguise that was legal for that area, only to suddenly cross an invisible line inside a large room and enter a hostile area, leading to me being shot in the back by the guards that just greeted me warmly and waved me through.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 12:04:12 PM by H-O-W-L »

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

  • High in the running for laziest worldwide.
Re: Hitman
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2020, 02:16:09 PM »
Glitch hit!

I suppose, on paper, the Elusive Targets probably sounded like a good way of keeping people engaged with the game between episodes. It all went tits up in practice, of course.

Re: Hitman
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2020, 03:09:39 AM »
That makes a lot of sense actually, thanks for that. I think the only ET I actually completed properly was Gary Busey, but otherwise it just doesn't suit my style of play (which is "fake it 'til you make it", basically).

Anyway, I love Sgail, it's a great level that I can't wait to play into the ground. I wish it weren't quite so "hostile", makes SA runs a bit harder than I'd like (and SASO has got to be close to impossible), but it's easily the most impressive one in the game. Miami's a close second.

H-O-W-L

  • Front Toward Enemy
Re: Hitman
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2020, 05:46:26 AM »
Please stop thanking me for posts in this thread. I am an actual cunt.
Jokes aside, thanks for the positive feedback. I've spent a lot of time with Mister Rieper so it's nice to share. Something I hate about game communities is cunts learning all the secrets and details of a franchise then taking them to the grave, so I spill my knowledge wherever I can.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

  • High in the running for laziest worldwide.
Re: Hitman
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2020, 12:46:33 PM »
Thanks, you cunt.

H-O-W-L

  • Front Toward Enemy
Re: Hitman
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2020, 08:12:49 AM »
Glitch hit!

I suppose, on paper, the Elusive Targets probably sounded like a good way of keeping people engaged with the game between episodes. It all went tits up in practice, of course.

This is true, actually. They wanted the game to be a live content model to keep people engaged, but really they got behind both on episode development AND elusive target development so you still ended up with droughts and delays. Even Hitman 2 had this issue because they ended up having to properly unify 2016's content into 2 post-release via patches, while also trying to create new constant weekly/monthly content. It's sort of why I disdain games-as-a-service, but the OTHER monthly content, like new weapons/escalations, was nice as fuck.

If you don't have it, the expansion pass for Hitman 2 is fantastic. The Resort is just a nice looking and well-designed level, but the Bank is probably the best level for either Hitman 2016 or Hitman 2. Much as they love to laud their huge levels and the intense clockwork nature and giga-crowds of the new engine, that level works so well because it's smaller, vertical, and very interleaved with itself. Everything comes together like visible clockwork, and the constant tick-tock-tick-tock soundtrack makes it really feel like the trailer for 2016. Timing everything to a T.

Oh, and if you're going for challenges in the new games, you can just make saves at important points, complete a challenge (IE a special kill or whathave you) then reload another save. It all counts.

Re: Hitman
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2020, 08:42:12 AM »
I’d love to get the expansion pass, but since I only paid $20 for the base game it seems daft to spend twice that for two more levels. Not IOI’s fault of course, but I’ve got to be a cheapskate in this economy.

Tags: