Glinner: thread for backseat moderators and hand-wringing [split topic]

[tao of wub]

And then I'll be told I need to be less not-exactly-spiritual about it.

Why should anybody want to take your medicines away if they are providing a positive effect on your life?

Be whatever you want to be.  Its your life.

Word games are boring.

[Cuellar]

People always bemoan "echo chambers" like we're not all having to deal with people who don't agree with us every day.

I want to have a nice little corner of the internet where everyone basically agrees.

The internet is great, in that it brings you into contact with all the people you wouldn't want to be in contact with for more than the time it takes them to say 'you know who are the MOST oppressed class, don't you?' in the real world.

It's like having a spare evening, and instead of hanging out with your friends you go along to an EDL meeting. All valuable debate.

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

BTW the term 'transgenderism' is really outdated (and typically used by less than savoury types).

x

[tao of wub]

it's not a problem of not having enough data, it's a question of perspective

you're probably not hateful but this

is Dawkins-tier cuntery

Believe what you like.  I said people can do what they like and that is cuntery?  Call me whatever.

Not interested at this point.

Enjoy.

[Zetetic]

Too complex to of practical use (probably in our lifetimes, but he didn't say that last bit, that's me that is).

It's not just that it's difficult to investigate.

It's to do with the fundamental assumption that the state of "being a trans person" will be physically similar in the head-meat from one person to the next, or that being a "real woman" is a matter of physical similarity in the head-meat.

The first of those is open to investigation, but the second is about what we mean by "woman" and how we currently construct gender and how we're prepared to do in so the future. The second is, fundamentally, not a scientific claim.

BTW the term 'transgenderism' is really outdated (and typically used by less than savoury types).

I appreciate it has unhelpful connotations. In retrospect, I might have said "being a trans person" or "experiencing gender dysphoria" and either of those might have served my point better by emphasising the nature of the state under discussion.

[Zetetic]

Why should anybody want to take your medicines away if they are providing a positive effect on your life?

I'd like a conversation about this reality, please.

(Where my meds already cost about 4x as much as they did a few years back, for a start.)

[Mister Six]

Dunno if this actually makes me a cunt, but I'm going to answer Kryton's questions, so we can at least say that happened.

So... Without being a cunt/Glinner, let me ask questions.

Are children supposed to just accept it?

Are children just supposed to accept homosexuality or heterosexuality or cisgenderness? The answer to all of the above is yes. And they will in fact "just accept it", because they are constricting their understanding of the world one bit at a time, and do not have any inherent hangups about gay or trans people. That's adult shit, and only came about because people made the arbitrary decision to declare some facets of human existence taboo.

If so, at what age?

Whatever age they learn about men and women. Is Richard Scarry still around? Commission him to do a book.

Is it something that should be normalised

Yes.

or do we approach it as 'okay some people are having these issues'.

No.

If we normalise it, would this not cause more problems when young minds are easily influenced/confused by the world?

This is where the questions creep into transphobic territory, because the implication is that the existence of transgender people is something that is dangerous for children to be aware of, and might have a malign (though undefined) influence on a child.

Remember, some children ARE transgender.

Anyway, the answer is no, just like with gay people. Kids that are trans will drift towards that as they grow older, and it's not like they can have any kind of permanent medical intervention until they've passed 18 and been seen by a series of experts. Other kids might toy with female roleplay (I did, as a wee one) but ultimately decide they're cis. Still others won't even entertain the thought.

You can't "trans" kids, you know, which appears to be the implication here.

Most kids are struggling to understand the world as it is, so how does one go about explaining this stuff to them? How do I explain to young children that there's some kind of issue (or whatever word it is I'm looking for) that suggests some people are struggling with their gender?

Openly, factually and honestly, same as everything else, after reading up on it yourself using the actually medical experts' opinions and advice. These are your hang-ups, not theirs, and this stuff is only confusing to you because of your ignorance.

"There are boys and girls and they grow up into men and women. Sometimes someone who doctors thought was a little boy at birth actually feels more like a woman as they grow up, and they become a woman, with the help of other doctors. (Repeat for other gender.) They're called trans women and trans men. Most of the time people feel good about the gender the doctors decided on at birth. They're called cis men and women. But whatever someone is, the important thing is that they are a good and kind person. I'm a cis man. You'll figure out what you are many years from now so don't worry about it much. But the important thing is to treat all people well."

At what point in their lives do we introduce this stuff without damaging their childhood and confusing them (and by proxy creating stigma)? Is it around the time we introduce sex education? Before? After?

See above. Your circling on this, and the vagueness of "damaging their childhood" (how?) and *confusing them" (how?) speaks more to a discomfort with trans people than any universal truth about kids.

Even introducing this stuff to a young child might cause issues when a pre-pubescent say feminine boy might think it's because they're a girl, instead of it just being pre-pubescent issues.

Why is this a problem? If kids have been raised not to be cunts about this and parents understand that this is something kids go through, they'll just accept that it's something to be figured out and get on with life.

Regarding sports, even with hormone treatment to transition, would it be fair to say have a 'former man' compete equally with women in say the Olympics? I'm not going to use the word 'cheat' as I don't think it's cheating in the literal sense, but until we get mixed gender sports, would it be fair? Or should it be a different category?

Don't know, don't care. This is something that sports leagues, which are actually paid to consider these issues in collaboration with scientists and the latest studies on these aspects of human biology, can decide. It's nothing we need to discuss here, and only contributes to othering and dehumanising trans people.

Should all women just accept that a former man is now a woman, even though they weren't born biologically female. Is it just a case of 'shut up, accept it, if you don't you're a TERF or bigot?

Yes.

[tao of wub]

I'd like a conversation about this reality, please.

(Where my meds already cost about 4x as much as they did a few years back, for a start.)

Talking to me about it is not going to help though is it?

If you gave me a lab and some start materials I could make you a lifetimes supply but that would be expensive and illegal if they are controlled materials.  I could tell you step by step how to make them I suppose.

It is not too tricky.  You might need an NMR machine and an IR to check on what structures you have actually made.  Plus you are going to have to do some column chromatography, but it is not that hard either.

Being glib aside, I don't know how I could help you re. this.  you could write to your MP, or other representative, or start a grass roots campaign to try and get support for your issues regarding supply and cost of medicine.[nb]Edited to make it clearer[/nb]

Not interested in posting at all anymore for reasons.

Why is this a problem? If kids have been raised not to be cunts about this and parents understand that this is something kids go through, they'll just accept that it's something to be figured out and get on with life.

Mister Six, I agree.  Would be nice if everybody could stop being cunts.

[Bernice]

What about tailors and dressmakers? Garments are made for the typical range of cis bodies after all. Is it just a case of "shut up terf Topshop, make an inclusive frock"?  What about shoes, should we just pretend that women don't have smaller feet? Adopt European sizing conventions? How am I supposed to tell my gardener that my former neighbour Dave is now my former neighbour Jill?

[bgmnts]

Should transpeople be made to do national service, to make up for us allowing them to live?

I'm just asking questions.

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

(nvm) xx

[JaDanketies]

feel like Tao of Wub got a little railroaded there personally. They made a relatively innocuous comment and found themselves being burnt in a strawman. They don't come across like a bigot or a hater and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

[Endicott]

Sentence 3 I agree with. Maybe if wub had rowed back on the accusations of Zet being mentally ill, possibly even apologised for said twattery, and not acted instead like a really sore loser, the discussion might have progressed in a less hilarious fashion and been interesting for good and not bad reasons.

[tao of wub]

Sorry everybody for any offence.

I probably haven't communicated my ideas effectively.  This is my fault.  I find each back and forth to not achieve anything as it feels like arguing at cross purposes,  about different things.

I don't think I have said the things that some posters are saying I have said.

My opinions are only that and not worth arguing about.  If people think I am a bigot and am asking transpeople to prove themselves somehow, all I can say is that is as far from how I think on it as you could get.

Not got anything more to say at this point as I am finding it too depressing to be honest.

[Chedney Honks]

I got a lot of time for you and Zet. Take a breather, I really feel like no harm done here and I'm basically the barometer of sanity.

[Endicott]

CH is right, there's no one here saner than him.

I very much doubt anyone thinks you're a bigot wub. You had an argument and it didn't go to plan. It happens.

[Cloud]

Kryton I'd just written some stuff and clicked send but, your PMs appear to be disabled

To throw a rough 2p in, having a few trans friends I'm in support of them and very disturbed about the Glinner types and to a lesser extent Rowling (though I think hers is more of a stubborn ignorance than hate) but I don't think it's unreasonable to have questions and concerns.  I just don't really bring them up, as it's so easy to give people the wrong idea (especially if they think they have you sussed as someone with an agenda)

[Zetetic]

I probably haven't communicated my ideas effectively.  This is my fault.

No, the problem is that some of your ideas are wrong, including the belief that investigations of neuroanatomy can determine whether someone is "really" a woman or not.

If people think I am a bigot

For what it's worth, I don't think you're a bigot. I think you have certain beliefs that have awful implications, and that you're unwilling to seriously consider this because you're so pleased with those beliefs in the first place.

(And I think your attachment to those beliefs are driven by broadly laudable attitudes.)

[Zetetic]

I got a lot of time for you and Zet. Take a breather, I really feel like no harm done here

The belief that neuroanatomy trumps or ratifies people's expressed emotions and beliefs is an insidious one, all the more so because of how attractive it is to well-meaning fools. It does real harm now, in how it biases funding and interventions for those in distress.

[Chedney Honks]

I didn't read either of your posts because they looked boring. Nobody will have done so no harm done.

[TrenterPercenter]

The belief that neuroanatomy trumps or ratifies people's expressed emotions and beliefs is an insidious one, all the more so because of how attractive it is to well-meaning fools. It does real harm now, in how it biases funding and interventions for those in distress.

You are perhaps being a bit harsh on Tao in a sense but you are absolutely right.

[Famous Mortimer]

Kryton I'd just written some stuff and clicked send but, your PMs appear to be disabled

Because he was such a prick before that Barry disabled his ability to send PMs. But he's probably just asking questions in good faith, or whatever line he's using now.

[Cloud]

Because he was such a prick before that Barry disabled his ability to send PMs.

[citation needed]

[Barry Admin]

He asked for a temp ban.

[Cloud]

Fair play

[dissolute ocelot]

What about tailors and dressmakers? Garments are made for the typical range of cis bodies after all. Is it just a case of "shut up terf Topshop, make an inclusive frock"?  What about shoes, should we just pretend that women don't have smaller feet? Adopt European sizing conventions? How am I supposed to tell my gardener that my former neighbour Dave is now my former neighbour Jill?

Women's clothes already come in midget, giant, and enormously bellied, surely broader than average shoulders would be good for swimmers and stuff. And an increasing number of designers are making gender-neutral clothes. ASOS has a range, although many of them are awful, but that's true of ASOS's other clothes as well.

[Blue Jam]

Some tailors already cater to trans folk:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/tailor-trans-people-suits-mens-womens-sections-gender-neutral-bindle-and-keep-transparent-paul-a7930136.html

I didn't know ASOS did a gender-neutral range, will have to check that out even though it probably is terrible like all their own-brand stuff.

How necessary are gender-neutral sections in shops? I'm asking as a woman who already buys men's clothes and things like women's shirts which aren't close-fitting and don't have darts over the bust and hips, etc. Lots of sportswear is already unisex. I think fashion is pretty fluid as it is, for women at least. I imagine it is harder for men who want to wear more feminine styles though.

[JaDanketies]

with trans and NB people making up such a small percentage of the population, I doubt there's much financial incentive to make a special space to cater for them in Primark.

There's a place that does clothing for trans people in my town. It's existed for as long as I can remember - at least 25 years. I guess it's like Jacamo for trans people.

edit: just checked and they've been going for over three decades, but their website makes it sound like they are a very unique brick-and-mortar store and perhaps a one-of-a-kind

I'm well paranoid about sharing personal info on here because some of the twats on Twitter have tried to dox me in the past, and I worry that some GCers stalk this board so they can build dossiers on so-called 'misogynists'. Is that weird? I mean, they seem incredibly unhinged. It wouldn't surprise me.

[Blue Jam]

Also see the pubs reopening thread and all the talk of lads out on the town in their skinny jeans. Tight trousers and loose tops now seem to be the norm for people of all genders and none, and that seems to have been the case since 2003 at least.

Today I learned the word "meggings" - men's leggings. Not a new thing though, men's running tights and compression leggings have been A Thing since forever. Well, at least since sports shops have been catering to men who want practical stuff to work out in.

[Blue Jam]

I'm well paranoid about sharing personal info on here because some of the twats on Twitter have tried to dox me in the past, and I worry that some GCers stalk this board so they can build dossiers on so-called 'misogynists'. Is that weird? I mean, they seem incredibly unhinged. It wouldn't surprise me.

After posting a flippant comment under one of Graham Linehan's YouTube videos I had someone make a reference to me posting on CaB in what seemed like a bid to freak me out. I think they genuinely do see any people who disagree with them as active hardcore "TRAs" and they can't comprehend that most people simply don't care about these issues to the insanely obsessive degree that they do. To them CaB is a trans rights forum and not merely a comedy forum where people are wondering what the hell happened to one of their favourite sitcom writers. To TERFs, Twitter and Reddit are also run by shadowy cabals of militant TRAs and anyone who replies to a tweet with "I haven't seen JK Rowling's tweet, please leave me alone" must be in league with them.

So yes, I'd be inclined to be a bit careful as they do seem to have this deranged "with us or against us" attitude, though the same can be said of many other groups. I used to notice similar behaviour in UKIP supporters and advocates for alternative medicine, from the belief that anyone who disagrees with them no matter how mildly must have some sinister agenda or be on the payroll of some lobbying group, to the obsession with finding out who their opponents are and building dossiers and threatening them.