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March 28, 2024, 03:37:14 PM

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Rebecca Long Bailey sacked [split topic]

Started by bgmnts, June 25, 2020, 03:14:05 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

NoSleep

Does "sent to Coventry" mean Haircunt puts fingers in his ears when she is nearby?


I've just realised how much John Bercow looks like Kevin Keegan.

Nothing more to add.


bgmnts

Haha what the fucking actual fuck is the world?

Everyone is broken, the internet broke us.

Johnny Yesno

As pointed out by Michael Walker, check out the 'don't knows':

https://twitter.com/michaeljswalker/status/1276530717816750087

Quote from: Michael Walker @michaeljswalker
Amazing that Starmer managed to make the public more aware of a Labour politician retweeting an interview with an actor in a mainstream newspaper than a Tory cabinet minister robbing a London council of £40 million to help out a party donor. Great politics!

Quote from: Kate Day @kate_day
New @YouGov
snap poll suggests public backs sacking of Rebecca Long-Bailey and thinks Robert Jenrick should resign.
- 47% of public say Starmer right, 12% say wrong
- 39% public think Jenrick should go, 11% don't
3:38 PM · Jun 26, 2020

4:00 PM · Jun 26, 2020

Well done, Sir Keith. Well done.

Buelligan

Quote from: bgmnts on July 02, 2020, 03:14:36 PM
Haha what the fucking actual fuck is the world?

Everyone is broken, the internet broke us.

No, it's not the world.  It's a small group of really evil Blairite cunts who've got into power in the Labour Party and have been hollowing it out for decades.  Until they're gone this will continue.  Who is it helping?

olliebean

To be fair, it's not true that everything the Government says is bad. Just that everything they say that isn't bad, is a lie.

honeychile

Neta Golan, the likely source of Maxine Peake's "antisemitic conspiracy theory", has published a statement in the Morning Star.

As is so often the case, who knew that jews were the real antisemites?

BlodwynPig

I wish "sources" would fuck off and die, cowardly fuckstains.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: honeychile on July 03, 2020, 09:28:03 AM
Neta Golan, the likely source of Maxine Peake's "antisemitic conspiracy theory", has published a statement in the Morning Star.

As is so often the case, who knew that jews were the real antisemites?

Small peanuts. Have the right ever apologised for the constant diarrhoea of lies from top of Government down to Darren Grimes? No, they don't need to - not accountable for their lies. In my opinion Neta has made an understandable conflation, death squads in the US and Israel are criminal borderline evil so an unverifiable minor statement is not worth apologising for.

Buelligan

Quote from: honeychile on July 03, 2020, 09:28:03 AM
Neta Golan, the likely source of Maxine Peake's "antisemitic conspiracy theory", has published a statement in the Morning Star.

As is so often the case, who knew that jews were the real antisemites?

Oh dear, she says anti-zionist and zionism, can someone sack her?

Quote from: Neta Golan in that articleWhen Sir Keir Starmer justified his sacking of Rebecca Long Bailey, stating that he wanted to "rebuild trust with the Jewish community," he painted all Jews with one stroke of the same brush.

This denies the existence of many Jews who, like me, oppose Israeli apartheid, including many Jewish members of the Labour Party, and a growing number of young anti-zionist Jews who also represent and are part of the Jewish community.

Jews are not a homogeneous group with the same views — far from it. The assumption that Israel represents Jews and that all Jews are zionists is in itself a false, anti-Jewish assumption.

Jews and Israel are not the same thing. By conflating the two, Sir Keir Starmer is not standing up for an oppressed minority.

Accusations of anti-semitism made against critics of Israel serve to intimidate us from speaking out on Israel's discriminatory practices.

But we will not be silenced. Calling out Israel for its disregard for international law and UN resolutions is urgent. It is a matter of life or death.

NoSleep

Netinyahoo said zionism the other day, too.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Buelligan on July 03, 2020, 09:39:16 AM
Oh dear, she says anti-zionist and zionism, can someone sack her?

Quote from: NoSleep on July 03, 2020, 09:42:07 AM
Netinyahoo said zionism the other day, too.

And there's this: https://twitter.com/JewsVsIsrael/status/999501922943021061

And this: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190215-far-right-tommy-robinson-declares-himself-a-zionist-in-leaked-video/

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't choose our words carefully. If anything, describing colonial violence as far right clarifies a situation that has become murky.

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on June 30, 2020, 08:05:02 PM
The SWP are having a meeting about it right now, if you're interested in some socialists' rape apologists'view on it.

https://www.facebook.com/watchparty/2004792832984967/

Fixed that for you.

honeychile

Not that i disagree, but to negate my earlier criticism of pancreas, there is no way a tory would reply to a three day old post on an internet forum to make an internecine attack.

To be fair most tories don't have much in the way of fixed principles.

It's not a trivial sectarian issue though, the SWP as an organisation should not be welcomed into the wider left movement. I also think it is important that those who know about them don't stop talking about that so younger or newer people don't get dragged into them, particularly now that so many leftists are feeling like the Labour Party is not for them.

So for clarity, the SWP is an organisation whose leadership is still comprised of people who covered up the alleged rape of a couple of its young members by its then national secretary.


Buelligan

When was that then?  I know when but you know, I think honeychile has a good point. 

Paul Calf

One trot faction sitting in a hall,
One trot faction sitting in a hall,
And if that trot faction should have a nasty squall,
There'll be two trot factions...

Quote from: Buelligan on July 04, 2020, 07:47:50 AM
When was that then?  I know when but you know, I think honeychile has a good point.

Seriously?

OK then, their then national secretary was first accused of rape in 2010, it was investigated personally by their now national secretary Charlie Kimber who took no action. The accused national secretary stood down but stayed on the leadership "Central Committee".

The allegation was formally re-raised in 2012 along with a similar allegation by another young woman. They were then investigated by the party's internal disputes Committee comprising 7 people, 5 of which were close colleagues of the accused. The accused was given copies of the victims statement before but the victim not allowed to see the statement of the accused. The transcript of the Committee was leaked at the time and showed that the victim was asked things like "it is true that you like a drink isn't it?" "how can you be sure you didn't consent?" and "was he drunk too? It's totally different if he's drunk". Meanwhile people supporting the accused were actively intimidated by friends of the leadership and the accused. They then said there wasn't enough evidence to find him guilty. The second allegation was substantial but not investigated as the accused decided to quit the party before it was. In 2013 the leadership then told the party that the accused had been entirely vindicated and banned any further discussion of the issue leading to a large amount of people leaving.

So that was  7 years ago, but different times etc.

The people in charge of the SWP now - Charlie Kimber, Alex Callinicos, Amy Leather, Weyman Bennett etc remain people who covered up allegations of rape against their friend and colleague and oversaw a kangeroo court investigation which they still defend.

It's not sectarianism to raise this, there are plenty of other issues with the SWP and other trot groups but they are more down to personal views, but this is a safeguarding matter and the SWP under its current leadership is not a safe place nor should it be tolerated under some notion of uniting the left.

It's particularly important to raise it now when the SWP are trying to pick up a lot of disgruntled people who are now disillusioned by Labour and are trying to worm their front organisation Stand Up to Racism into the UK Black Lives Matter movement.

(and no I'm not in another trot faction, I was in the SP as young person briefly and well over a decade ago, as I've always been a socialist, before I realised that they too, and trot parties in general, had plenty of issues and were at best a waste of time).


Buelligan

Yes, as I said, I knew about it.  I think the reason it was remarked upon is because there have been discussions about left on left aggression recently. 

From my own standpoint, I wouldn't see any problem with this particular position if people were stepping up with alacrity to support rape victims all of the time.  I find it less attractive when it appears to be a sectarian issue (I'm sure it wasn't in this case,) rather than a straightforward question of giving succour to all those harmed by sexual violence.  Rather like the antisemitism thing, I suppose.

Quote from: Buelligan on July 04, 2020, 09:15:17 AM
Yes, as I said, I knew about it.  I think the reason it was remarked upon is because there have been discussions about left on left aggression recently. 

From my own standpoint, I wouldn't see any problem with this particular position if people were stepping up with alacrity to support rape victims all of the time.  I find it less attractive when it appears to be a sectarian issue (I'm sure it wasn't in this case,) rather than a straightforward question of giving succour to all those harmed by sexual violence.  Rather like the antisemitism thing, I suppose.

Precisely. Isn't it funny how only left wing organisations can be ruined beyond all repair by the behaviour of some of their members? I wonder how many rapists are in the Tory party? Is anyone bothered to find out?

Frankly this is a seriously dodgy argument. The vast majority of criticism of the SWP comes from former members, many who were senior members for years, some decades and who remain far left activists. This is not about undermining the left, or using some "bad apples" against a movement, but literally raising a major safeguarding issue with the organisation as a whole. Allowing the SWP to be a part of your movement will undermine the left, and disregards the safety of woman in the movement.

Lots of senior Tories have been accused of sexual misconduct and got away with it, most of it was major news, the 2017 allegations were major news but people accused like Raab, Fallon etc have had no repurcussions. The Tory Party is a disgusting organisation, but I've not been aware of anyone here suggesting we should be listening to what they have to say?

The Labour Party dealt with allegations at that time a bit better but clearly still have a way to go too. Ditto the socialist party, the green party, the lib dems, the SNP etc etc.

What is significant about the SWP is that it tries heavily to recruit young people in protests movements and it is run by people who literally split their party to defend their personal actions over one of their mates raping young women.

Saying we shouldn't raise that because Tories are bad too, is like the Democrats who ignore the allegations against Biden or Clinton because Trump. That's kind of the issue, people shouldn't have to choose between which rapist they want to vote for.

On the left we should not get stuck in infighting but we absolutely do need to ensure we have our fucking house in order.

Buelligan

AFAIK, I haven't taken great interest in this but it was alleged, rather than proven.  IMO, in those circumstance, raping is not an appropriate word to use.  Other than that, I understand your position and I stand by my earlier comments. 

Given that the victims were told if they went to the police they would have to leave the party, as they don't believe in bourgeois justice, and then the evidence was only presented to a panel of people who knew the accused personally, and the party leadership and their mates went to great lengths to discredit the victims and their supporters, then no it was never 'proved'. However there were two separate accusers of similar serious sexual offences, and neither the defendent nor his mates disputed that he, a nearly 50 year old man who held the most senior role in the organisation had a sexual relationship with a teenage girl who was volunteering for him. Bourgeois morals were mentioned.

Obviously 'believe women' only applies when politically conveniant.

Quote from: The Always Red Society on July 04, 2020, 10:19:59 AM

Saying we shouldn't raise that because Tories are bad too, is like the Democrats who ignore the allegations against Biden or Clinton because Trump. That's kind of the issue, people shouldn't have to choose between which rapist they want to vote for.

On the left we should not get stuck in infighting but we absolutely do need to ensure we have our fucking house in order.


I don't think anybody did say that.
"Getting stuck in infighting" is exactly what many people who raise these 'concerns' are hoping will happen. As buelligan hints at, didn't we just lose a great socialist government in waiting because of people earnestly declaring the Labour Party riddled beyond all repair with nazi levels of anti semitism, all based on a few rumours and innuendos?
Didn't the Tory press ruthlessly instigate and capitalise on the lefts basic sense of decency and introspection over the issue?
Are we hoping to destroy what's left with a new angle of attack?

Paul Calf

Quote from: The Always Red Society on July 04, 2020, 10:38:08 AM
Given that the victims were told if they went to the police they would have to leave the party, as they don't believe in bourgeois justice, and then the evidence was only presented to a panel of people who knew the accused personally, and the party leadership and their mates went to great lengths to discredit the victims and their supporters, then no it was never 'proved'. However there were two separate accusers of similar serious sexual offences, and neither the defendent nor his mates disputed that he, a nearly 50 year old man who held the most senior role in the organisation had a sexual relationship with a teenage girl who was volunteering for him. Bourgeois morals were mentioned.

Obviously 'believe women' only applies when politically conveniant.

It also only applies where it doesn't break the legal principle of the presumption of innocence.

If you think the SWP is "what's left" I don't know what to say. They have an active membership of a few hundred and a leadership entirely made up of people who covered up serious rape allegations, fuck them.

Paul Calf

Yeah, let's cut off a massive organisation filled with active and enthusiastic left-wing campaigners because some of its leaders behaved appallingly.

You know what? Fuck this. This is why the left never win. The far right now have the monopoly on solidarity. We're just a sordid collection of social climbers constantly trying to outdo each others' piety, who'll throw each other under a bus shitting in fear at the first allegation of something nasty.


They're not a massive organisation in the slightest and they're a fucking danger so yes, let's cut them off as an organisation. If you don't then you're excluding far more people as almost everyone I know well on the left won't touch them. Their basic members are free to join any other part of the movement as they like.

Anyway, I've said my bit . I'm out. Google it if you like, read the testimonies of SWP members who left, or the transcripts of their meetings, it's not scurrilous rumours.

If you want to try and defend the SWP, I have no time for you. That's not sectarianism.

Quote from: Paul Calf on July 04, 2020, 10:43:57 AM
It also only applies where it doesn't break the legal principle of the presumption of innocence.

Of course, the justice system is great for victims of sexual assault and unless someone is convicted we should assume they're innocent. Stuff like this is a great look..