Rebecca Long Bailey sacked [split topic]

[NoSleep]

a massive organisation

They have an active membership of a few hundred

[Paul Calf]

Of course, the justice system is great for victims of sexual assault and unless someone is convicted we should assume they're innocent. Stuff like this is a great look..

Are you suggesting that we create a class of offence where someone has to prove their innocence, rather than their guilt being proven?

Think carefully.

[Paul Calf]

Oh, that's fine then. If they're not big enough to care about, let's burn them.

[Zetetic]

It might be worth considering why their membership is so small, and why it shrank in the early 2010s.

who'll throw each other under a bus shitting in fear at the first allegation of something nasty.

all based on a few rumours and innuendos?

I don't think these would describe the SWP situation very well.

[solidified gruel merchant]

If you think the SWP is "what's left" I don't know what to say. They have an active membership of a few hundred and a leadership entirely made up of people who covered up serious rape allegations, fuck them.

Yeh fuck them. And all the anti-semites in the Labour Party. And the antifa thugs. And the crazed anarchist terrorists in Extinction Rebellion etc etc

[NoSleep]

Oh, that's fine then. If they're not big enough to care about, let's burn them.

They've burnt themselves.

Just pointing out your definition of "massive". Couldn't give a fuck about the SWP; this particular case is not the only allegation about sexual misbehaviour towards women within their ranks I've personally heard about either.

[Paul Calf]

It's almost as though opponents of socialism and social democracy have worked out how to taint into untouchability key figures and institutions of the left.

[NoSleep]

I'm sure all left wing institutions are riddled with entryists and saboteurs; look at Iraq war apologist and former member of the SWP Christopher Hitchens for example. Or Keir Starmer. Or Paul Mason.

[solidified gruel merchant]

Is it SWP policy to cover up rape allegations? Why are left wing organisations threatened/smeared in their entirety by the behaviour of individuals within their ranks?

[The Always Red Society]

Absolutely, of course they are.

It's almost as though opponents of socialism and social democracy have worked out how to taint into untouchability key figures and institutions of the left.

This though, fucking hell, this is not that.

[jobotic]

Are you suggesting that we create a class of offence where someone has to prove their innocence, rather than their guilt being proven?

Think carefully.

Yes but Comrade Delta's crew made sure that there was no chance of either happening.

[The Always Red Society]

Is it SWP policy to cover up rape allegations? Why are left wing organisations threatened/smeared in their entirety by the behaviour of individuals within their ranks?

Yes it pretty much is! They deal with complaints internally.

It's not individuals in their rank, it's literally the people in charge of the organisation! Charlie Kimber, Alex Callinicos, Amy Leather, Weyman Bennett and their cronies.

[BlodwynPig]

Solidarity to all my brother and sisters on the wrong side of an argument

[Buelligan]

This conversation though, to be useful at all, is it important to recount the rather well known history of the doings of this, minuscule, group?  Focus entirely on it.  Retell it in detail (well, not detail, just the lowlights).  To have a complete benny over it and throw all consideration of why left on left aggression constantly undermines any possibility of the Left ever getting anywhere, under the juggernaut?  Yes, of course it is.

Deal with injustice, support its victims - all the time - but don't undermine your own movement, at any opportunity, just to have five minutes on a soapbox, shouting about something you usually don't even think about.

[AllisonSays]

Yeah, fuck the SWP. I'm taken aback by some of the arguments here. This isn't about sectarianism - as TARS has explained patiently and in great detail, the current leadership of the party is full of people who conspired to cover up rape allegations. I don't see how leftists can defend organising with those people, which - because the SWP is a top-down, leadership-driven organisation - is what you're doing if you join their marches or attend their events.

[Buelligan]

I reiterate what I said above.  Who is suggesting joining the SWP?  Who even thinks of them, apart from in moments like this when we drag them out, all several hundred of them, so's we can feel like we know something and are righteous.  Fucking hell, people need socialism, everyone does and they're never going to get it until we stop picking these twatty scabs.

[BlodwynPig]

I reiterate what I said above.  Who is suggesting joining the SWP?  Who even thinks of them, apart from in moments like this when we drag them out, all several hundred of them, so's we can feel like we know something and are righteous.  Fucking hell, people need socialism, everyone does and they're never going to get it until we stop picking these twatty scabs.

It's almost as if their real anger is channelled into self-loathing, while right wingers get cheeky memes and "oh its just boys being boys, terrible but what do you expect". Shameful stuff. If we could concentrate the left-on-left anger and turn it towards the government, we would maybe have a chance of a revolution of some sort. I don't see enough blind mad-God rage being hurled at Boris.

[Buelligan]

Solidarity to all my brother and sisters on the wrong side of an argument

You've got it babe.

[AllisonSays]

I reiterate what I said above.  Who is suggesting joining the SWP?  Who even thinks of them, apart from in moments like this when we drag them out, all several hundred of them, so's we can feel like we know something and are righteous.  Fucking hell, people need socialism, everyone does and they're never going to get it until we stop picking these twatty scabs.

Sorry Buelligan, I made the post above before seeing yours. I get what you're saying, although I think it's slightly ungenerous to suggest that the motivation of people criticising the SWP is purely about self-righteousness - there's often a wee bit of that in there, right enough.

From my point of view it's as much a practical as an ethical question. Anyone who's done any organising in the UK in the last ten years will know that SWP-affiliated groups (like Stand Up To Racism, for instance) gravitate around campaigns that have been set up by other groups, rarely (in my experience anyway) setting up their own. They then siphon off some of the energy and support around that campaign - as has been said here, that's particularly the case in terms of attracting younger activists who don't have a context for them, or who find their millenarian rhetoric appealing, or whatever. That means both less people on the ground for more active campaigning, and more people joining a horrible party that only exists, in my opinion, to keep perpetuating itself.

On the ethical questions, I guess the argument about how the Tories stick together (I don't think that's true, but whatever) and how the left is sectarian is also partly to do with the fact that we're supposed to hold ourselves to higher standards than them, interpersonally as well as politically. I think you can be critical of excessive sectarianism on the left - which I abhor, and find really depressing - and still think we need to hold ourselves to higher standards than the right.

[Albert Soviets]

They've burnt themselves.

Just pointing out your definition of "massive". Couldn't give a fuck about the SWP; this particular case is not the only allegation about sexual misbehaviour towards women within their ranks I've personally heard about either.

That fat Harry Worth looking cunt (who is on every level a cunt) the most public example, but yes, it's happened regularly in several branches. If the alleged rapist is some sort of organiser or influential member, the allegations get stamped on.

I was a member of the SWP from my mid-teens to my mid 20s. I left long before the lecherous cunt got outed. Having been to several conferences, a steward at Marxism, chaired meetings and so-on, I know them well enough. They are a toxic bullying bunch of cunts, which is not a matter of personal failings but explicitly political ones. It would be more than likely a waste of energy to physically boot them away from protests and movements, but more than sensible to shun them. Don't pick up a placard, don't buy their paper and certainly don't defend them.

[The Always Red Society]

I reiterate what I said above.  Who is suggesting joining the SWP?  Who even thinks of them, apart from in moments like this when we drag them out, all several hundred of them, so's we can feel like we know something and are righteous.  Fucking hell, people need socialism, everyone does and they're never going to get it until we stop picking these twatty scabs.

Sorry, who is getting self righteous here then?

I replied to someone linking people to the SWP discussions on the current Labour situation to see "what socialists think".

As AllisonSays says, the SWP are opportunistic and are trying to hoover up people quitting Labour and are trying to infiltrate the Black Lives Matter protests through Stand Up to Racism so now is absolutely the time to remind people not to touch them with a bargepole.

I didn't bang on and on about until people started actually defending the fuckers.

[BlodwynPig]

Sorry, who is getting self righteous here then?

I replied to someone linking people to the SWP discussions on the current Labour situation to see "what socialists think".

As AllisonSays says, the SWP are opportunistic and are trying to hoover up people quitting Labour and are trying to infiltrate the Black Lives Matter protests through Stand Up to Racism so now is absolutely the time to remind people not to touch them with a bargepole.

I didn't bang on and on about until people started actually defending the fuckers.

Perhaps we can apply some "tests" that are so beloved of Beige Starmer?

[honeychile]

Bloody hell, this all started cos i made a shit joke. I agree with The Always Red Society, if they're unreformed then we do need to propagate why they're a problem, same as i've always said about the genuinely antisemitic fringe in left politics. It's not about complete ideological purity, it's about filtering out those who (1) put people at risk or fail to protect them; (2) consequentially put people off from getting involved when we desperately need them; and (3) discredit the broader movement.

[Buelligan]

Sorry, who is getting self righteous here then?

I replied to someone linking people to the SWP discussions on the current Labour situation to see "what socialists think".

As AllisonSays says, the SWP are opportunistic and are trying to hoover up people quitting Labour and are trying to infiltrate the Black Lives Matter protests through Stand Up to Racism so now is absolutely the time to remind people not to touch them with a bargepole.

I didn't bang on and on about until people started actually defending the fuckers.

I won't bother arguing with you.  I can't see anyone defending the fuckers and triggering your thing.  Also, there is an enormous gulf difference between righteous and self righteous.

I agree, Alisonsays, (except for the bit about righteousness, see above).  I do think we should hold ourselves to higher standards, one of which is to support socialism - because all the people need it, this sometimes entails the need for self-discipline.

[The Always Red Society]

Support socialism does not equal support Socialist Workers Party. I would argue it is important to support socialism by not letting groups like them take advantage of a situation like the one the British left is in now. As AlissonSays says, the failings of SWP are not personal ones but directly political and a fundamental part of how they operate. The same is true to a lesser extent of most Trot groups, and whilst when I was in the SP there was never a bullying culture, there was a slightly cultish one and they are not the future of socialism.

Support socialism doesn't meant defend or ignore the worst actions of all people calling themselves socialists.

[chveik]

Are you suggesting that we create a class of offence where someone has to prove their innocence, rather than their guilt being proven?

Think carefully.

stop trolling

[chveik]

It's almost as if their real anger is channelled into self-loathing, while right wingers get cheeky memes and "oh its just boys being boys, terrible but what do you expect". Shameful stuff. If we could concentrate the left-on-left anger and turn it towards the government, we would maybe have a chance of a revolution of some sort. I don't see enough blind mad-God rage being hurled at Boris.

it's called self-criticism. it's a major part of being a leftist. calling it self-loathing is just pure armchair psychiatry.

[solidified gruel merchant]

it's called self-criticism. it's a major part of being a leftist. calling it self-loathing is just pure armchair psychiatry.

It's called navel-gazing and it is counterproductive. We've literally just been booted out of opposition, and elected a centrist dirge-a-tron as our new leader largely because of our penchant for this destructive, moral sapping introspection, and now people are going to suffer the very real effects of a Tory government for at least the next 5 years.
Will they be comforted knowing we danced to our enemies tune whenever they felt like starting the music?

[BlodwynPig]

it's called self-criticism. it's a major part of being a leftist. calling it self-loathing is just pure armchair psychiatry.

Thank you. This comment has been taken on board. Don't be too hard on yourself. There is a kindness in you that is fighting to get out.

[Buelligan]

it's called self-criticism. it's a major part of being a leftist. calling it self-loathing is just pure armchair psychiatry.

Yeah, I've noticed your enthusiasm for whatever you like to call it[nb]it's why I think you need a rocket up your arse[/nb], d'you find it contributes greatly to furthering the dear old cause?