Rebecca Long Bailey sacked [split topic]

[chveik]

It%u2019s called navel-gazing and it is counterproductive. We%u2019ve literally just been booted out of opposition, and elected a centrist dirge-a-tron as our new leader largely because of our penchant for this destructive, moral sapping introspection, and now people are going to suffer the very real effects of a Tory government for at least the next 5 years.

no, a lot of people in your party have given up on socialism. they could have used a bit more introspection if you ask me. leftists discussing how they could strategically do better are not necessarily centrists scum.

Will they be comforted knowing we danced to our enemies tune whenever they felt like starting the music?

it seems to me that the argument was about a party that has thrown rape victims under the bus. when people in this very forum ask for the racists in some labour whatsapp chat to be held accountable for their actions, do you also call it navel-gazing and  dancing to our enemies' tune?

[BlodwynPig]

no, a lot of people in your party have given up on socialism. they could have used a bit more introspection if you ask me. leftists discussing how they could strategically do better are not necessarily centrists scum.

it seems to me that the argument was about a party that has thrown rape victims under the bus. when people in this very forum ask for the racists in some labour whatsapp chat to be held accountable for their actions, do you also call it navel-gazing and  dancing to our enemies' tune?

armchair lunacy here folks

[chveik]

Yeah, I've noticed your enthusiasm for whatever you like to call it[nb]it's why I think you need a rocket up your arse[/nb], d'you find it contributes greatly to furthering the dear old cause?

we're just here to talk shit about politics, who's to decide what's the most useful thing for the cause?

[Buelligan]

Anybody who cares enough to check what happens to our account every fucking time some twat wades in.

[bgmnts]

Yeah lets be fair, nobody here is doing anything useful.

[BlodwynPig]

Yeah lets be fair, nobody here is doing anything useful.

you are I think, some good posts recently

[chveik]

armchair lunacy here folks

care to explain why?

[Paul Calf]

stop trolling

Well, that's you excused from having to think about the consequences of what you're demanding.

Mission accomplished, I suppose.

[chveik]

Well, that's you excused from having to think about the consequences of what you're demanding.

Mission accomplished, I suppose.

what consequences?

[chveik]

edit not arsed

[BlodwynPig]

care to explain why?

You propose no solutions. Your argument is at its heart correct - root out criminality, bad faith acting, unethical behaviour etc. But that is a liberal ideal and won't happen. We need to unite or scatter to the winds. Cover up of an alleged rape case is very serious, but is nothing to do with what we should be concerning ourselves with. If we had a united front, criminals or bad faith actors would find it much harder to prosper, if at all. Power corrupts on both sides. I've seen enough bent-Jesus figures in the socialist movements of my youth to understand where you are coming from.

[chveik]

You propose no solutions. Your argument is at its heart correct - root out criminality, bad faith acting, unethical behaviour etc. But that is a liberal ideal and won't happen. We need to unite or scatter to the winds. Cover up of an alleged rape case is very serious, but is nothing to do with what we should be concerning ourselves with. If we had a united front, criminals or bad faith actors would find it much harder to prosper, if at all. Power corrupts on both sides. I've seen enough bent-Jesus figures in the socialist movements of my youth to understand where you are coming from.

don't you think it's important that in a socialist movement everyone, regardless of gender or race, could feel at home? I get what you're saying about an 'united front', but there is a reason why Saint-Just was always banging on about corruption and we should be weary of the "criminals or bad faith actors" that tend to ruin our efforts.

as for the Jesus stuff, in my mind it's more a question of strategy than self-righteousness.

[BlodwynPig]

don't you think it's important that in a socialist movement everyone, regardless of gender or race, could feel at home? I get what you're saying about an 'united front', but there is a reason why Saint-Just was always banging on about corruption and we should be weary of the "criminals or bad faith actors" that tend to ruin our efforts.

as for the Jesus stuff, in my mind it's more a question of strategy than self-righteousness.

I can agree

[Puce Moment]

Yeah, let's cut off a massive organisation filled with active and enthusiastic left-wing campaigners because some of its leaders behaved appallingly.

You know what? Fuck this. This is why the left never win. The far right now have the monopoly on solidarity. We're just a sordid collection of social climbers constantly trying to outdo each others' piety, who'll throw each other under a bus shitting in fear at the first allegation of something nasty.

The swoppies have been derided since the 80s when most of the actual, committed lefties (or non-pacifists) left. It's amazing that they are even still being discussed.

[AllisonSays]

They are pretty widely derided but that doesn't mean they're not a presence. To take a practical example, my local union branch and the left faction of my union nationally are dominated by SWP-affiliated people. Stand up to Racism have had a presence at pretty much every demo I've been to in the last ten years. I can't imagine they get too much traction among younger people, because they are so god damn boring as much as for the more serious reasons given above, but they're still a material part of the British left, such as it is.

[pigamus]

We need to unite or scatter to the winds.

We don't agree on anything though, do we? People have been calling for unity on the left my whole life, and it's never actually happened.

[BlodwynPig]

We don't agree on anything though, do we? People have been calling for unity on the left my whole life, and it's never actually happened.

Not absolute unity, unity against a common enemy

[Sebastian Cobb]

I know the left fracturing is a joke so old it went back to the judean people's front, the right are pretty good at fracturing too, so that can't be the whole thing. 

[Paul Calf]

The Judean People's Front?

EDIT: Beaten to it.

[pancreas]

The left united under Corbyn, for the most part. The problem is that the PLP is a bunch of centrist cunts—not of the left at all. Also that many people on the left, like Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar, for example, failed to read the antisemitism bullshit correctly. And Brexit.

But the factions themselves weren't scrapping per se under Corbyn.

[chveik]

I know the left fracturing is a joke so old it went back to the judean people's front, the right are pretty good at fracturing too, so that can't be the whole thing.

yes it isn't. people are too quick to dismiss as "left-on-left anger" what can merely be ideological differences. it's not enough to call for unity, you have to create the conditions that make it possible. Corbyn and Sanders did for a while.

the monty python are establishment types, they were smearing the left.

[BlodwynPig]

I apologise for my über-beige call for unity. I hang my head in shame.

Pancreas is richt on Jones and Sarkar. We all have our blind spots.

[pigamus]

Not absolute unity, unity against a common enemy

I agree with you, but the problem is we've got two common enemies - the Tories and the centrists. I don't think even totally united we can beat them both.

Don't know what the answer is.

[BlodwynPig]

I agree with you, but the problem is we've got two common enemies - the Tories and the centrists. I don't think even totally united we can beat them both.

Don't know what the answer is.

A strong man/woman leader

[Sebastian Cobb]

i stan with pancreas

[BlodwynPig]

i stan with pancreas

I ollie with pancreas.

Can we return to props chit?

[thugler]

The problem is that the PLP is a bunch of centrist cunts—not of the left at all.

You're not entirely wrong (though centrist is used way too frequently), but there are plenty of mp's who are in favour of key policies we had in the last election. Look at Ed Miliband, derided as being a boring centrist forever and fighting openly for the green new deal. There isnt total support for Corbynism no, but there is enough to get pretty major changes through if we can stay united and keep fighting for what we believe in. If you genuinely believe that the vast majority of Labour mp's are entirely against everything we stand for you are even doomier than I am. There is a spectrum between Corbynite mp's and blairite cunts, and the space between that isn't totally empty of allies, at the very least on certain issues. Miliband certainly seems to be one.

[pancreas]

How many voted no confidence in Corbyn again?

[Kelvin]

But the factions themselves weren't scrapping per se under Corbyn.

Not at first, but by the end there was a pretty big rift between those on the left who wanted a 2nd Referendum above all else and those on the left who didn't consider that the priority. That certainly wasn't as clear cut as Centrists vs The Left, and was a big part of the reason why I thought Corbyn was critically wounded before entering that 2nd GE; a chunk of his own core support had lost faith in him over that issue.