Lockdown is more deadly than the virus [split topic]

[TheReturnOfTheSonOfTPPH]

I've read some stupid shit in my time, but this is really next level. Wins EU vote after 40 years of of anti-EU lies in the Tory press. Wins election after right wing and centrist establishment close ranks to destroy Corbyn at all costs. Pushes herd immunity strategy that kills thousands and puts UK at top of death league. A genius indeed.

The EU didn't exist until 1992. From 1997 until 2009 The Sun supported Labour. Vote Leave defeated all 4 Westminster parties & practically everyone else with any clout to lead the people to victory.

Why wasn't Corbyn "destroyed at all costs" in 2017? He wasn't even that far off winning.

When Cummings took over soon after Johnson became leader, the Tories were level. Within 5 months he's delivered their biggest election win in decades.

You can only beat what's put in front of you.

You're so far wrong about Covid it hardly needs addressing. Just to say the UK is nowhere the top of any of death league. You clearly haven't the first clue about the virus, the different measures taken across the planet to combat it, or awareness that herd immunity is what will ultimately happen. And had it been pursued from day one we'd have a lot fewer dead people than we have already, let alone the tens of thousands we've not factored in yet. We'll see 60000 early cancer deaths from lockdown, and that's an extremely conservative estimate. The death toll will be enormous here, but that'll be down to lockdown, not any obvious but ignores option put forward months ago.

[Zetetic]

Another two million or so jobless-ness-related "claimants" since February, I think.

[Funcrusher]

The EU didn't exist until 1992. From 1997 until 2009 The Sun supported Labour. Vote Leave defeated all 4 Westminster parties & practically everyone else with any clout to lead the people to victory.

Why wasn't Corbyn "destroyed at all costs" in 2017? He wasn't even that far off winning.

Fine, EEC/EU. The Sun supported Labour because they gave Murdoch what he wanted on media ownership, anti-Europe coverage continued. The establishment, including the Labour right, put no effort into monstering Corbyn in 2017 because everyone thought Labour would lose badly. 2017 was a wake up call.

You're so far wrong about Covid it hardly needs addressing. Just to say the UK is nowhere the top of any of death league. You clearly haven't the first clue about the virus, the different measures taken across the planet to combat it, or awareness that herd immunity is what will ultimately happen. And had it been pursued from day one we'd have a lot fewer dead people than we have already, let alone the tens of thousands we've not factored in yet. We'll see 60000 early cancer deaths from lockdown, and that's an extremely conservative estimate. The death toll will be enormous here, but that'll be down to lockdown, not any obvious but ignores option put forward months ago.

This is entertaining, proper Icke business. Please do tell all about the virus, didn't know you were an epidemiologist. Herd immunity in the context of a virus like this means immunity through a vaccine, which we don't have. There isn't much evidence as far as I know that having had Covid 19 even gives you immunity to catching it again, particularly given that there's now a new variant strain. How has the lockdown caused an 'enormous death toll' you massive loon?

[TheReturnOfTheSonOfTPPH]

Another two million or so jobless-ness-related "claimants" since February, I think.

Yup, lockdown is sure killing us from every angle. Especially 92 your old Doris who's not left a care home in years, the gadabout. Meanwhile, the millions who killed around central London throughout March are pretty much all fine. Great job Johnson.

[BlodwynPig]

This is entertaining, proper Icke business. Please do tell all about the virus, didn't know you were an epidemiologist.

He's certainly not a virologist.

[jobotic]

I've read some stupid shit in my time, but this is really next level. Wins EU vote after 40 years of of anti-EU lies in the Tory press. Wins election after right wing and centrist establishment close ranks to destroy Corbyn at all costs. Pushes herd immunity strategy that kills thousands and puts UK at top of death league. A genius indeed.

I agree with you on the whole here, on that, so what? He really could have killed those thousands with his bare hands and who would stop him? Starmer would be slightly critical in a friendly way and...what?

[TheReturnOfTheSonOfTPPH]

Funcrusher - Yup. The lockdown has already meant 3 million missed NHS appointments. Tens of thousands of missed cancer treatments. The as yet untold lost lives, careers, families destroyed by the idiotic lockdown will be counted later. The damaged generation of children stripped of an opportunity to socialise, play, learn & grow together. Suicide is already the biggest cause of death in children U19. Wait till they do the body count.

Fortunately we have saner neighbours ti compare ourselves with. And less enlightened ones too. The common factor is their curves are all the same, lockdown, no lockdown, masks no masks, Economic armageddon or a slight contraction. Same curves. Lockdown is irrelevant. You may subscribe to the fear porn junkie bedwetting BS, only today SAGE documents that showed 'instilling a sense of panic' was a major obvjective, have been circulating.

You clearly haven't a clue about the data. Get a grip. And change those wet sheets.

[BlodwynPig]

Funcrusher - Yup. The lockdown has already meant 3 million missed NHS appointments. Tens of thousands of missed cancer treatments. The as yet untold lost lives, careers, families destroyed by the idiotic lockdown will be counted later. The damaged generation of children stripped of an opportunity to socialise, play, learn & grow together. Suicide is already the biggest cause of death in children U19. Wait till they do the body count.

Fortunately we have saner neighbours ti compare ourselves with. And less enlightened ones too. The common factor is their curves are all the same, lockdown, no lockdown, masks no masks, Economic armageddon or a slight contraction. Same curves. Lockdown is irrelevant. You may subscribe to the fear porn junkie bedwetting BS, only today SAGE documents that showed 'instilling a sense of panic' was a major obvjective, have been circulating.

You clearly haven't a clue about the data. Get a grip. And change those wet sheets.

Homicidal post. Please delete.

[Zetetic]

The claimants count, and what it means to be a claimant, are within the Westminster government's gift, it should be understood.

[Barry Admin]

🤪😜🤪
😜🤪😜
🤪😜🤪

Go and start a tinfoil hat thread in the Covid subforum, and leave these nice people alone.

[TheReturnOfTheSonOfTPPH]

Homicidal post. Please delete.

It's entirely accurate. Shall I compare thy nation's chart to Sweden's? Lest it be more, or less, identical.

There are 1500 deaths in UK without underlying health conditions. The median age of death is 81. The vast majority of deaths "with" (that's with not 'of') Covid are in Care Homes & hospitals.
For a healthy under 60 it's basically harmless. Around as dangerous as being alive for 2 to 3 weeks.

[TheReturnOfTheSonOfTPPH]

Go and start a tinfoil hat thread in the Covid subforum, and leave these nice people alone.

Will you or anyone apologise when they're proven wrong? Y'know, for a change?

[BlodwynPig]

It's entirely accurate. Shall I compare thy nation's chart to Sweden's? Lest it be more, or less, identical.

There are 1500 deaths in UK without underlying health conditions. The median age of death is 81. The vast majority of deaths "with" (that's with not 'of') Covid are in Care Homes & hospitals.
For a healthy under 60 it's basically harmless. Around as dangerous as being alive for 2 to 3 weeks.

Shall we do a trial?

Should I share your post with families of people from all age groups and ethnicities that have died gasping for air?

"Puff Man says its "basically harmless", get thee down the vomitorium and raise a gut to England"

[Barry Admin]

Will you or anyone apologise when they're proven wrong? Y'know, for a change?

Happily.

I'll do it for you, splittin' 1 nu

[BlodwynPig]

Will you or anyone apologise when they're proven wrong? Y'know, for a change?

Except, people are only demonstrably 'wrong' when it comes to predictions, which is not the same as facts.

[jobotic]

Who's this old/new cunt then? He sounds really tough. I'm impressed.

[Captain Z]

These posts are impenetrable. Just glancing at the overall layout of the text gives me impression of a goose honking in my face.

[Funcrusher]

For a healthy under 60 it's basically harmless. Around as dangerous as being alive for 2 to 3 weeks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-long-term-health-disease-covid-19-lungs-heart-brain-a9546671.html

The studies that have been conducted into Covid-19 present a vast array of symptoms and long-term effects among those who suffered severe infections: scarring of lung tissue; kidney failure; inflammation of the heart muscle and arrhythmias; liver damage; cognitive impairment; psychosis mood disorder, and much more.

What this means for the long-term health implications of patients has yet to be fully established, but the growing evidence suggests that even those who suffered from a mild case of Covid-19 may go on to struggle with issues long after the virus has left their body
Six months into the Covid-19 pandemic, and with more than 380,000 people dead, the picture we have of Sars-CoV-2 remains opaque and unclear. Thousands of papers and reports have flooded the academic sphere during this period, as scientists have rushed to understand the virus, which, according to the journal Science, "acts like no pathogen humanity has ever seen".

As governments have scrambled to stabilise the spread of Covid-19 within their countries, enforcing far-reaching mitigation measures that have overhauled the normalities of day-to-day life, our perception of this deadly disease has slowly shifted and changed.

What initially appeared to be a predictable respiratory infection, similar to Sars or Avian flu, Sars-CoV-2 is now known to affect the lungs, brain, eyes, nose, heart, blood vessels, livers, kidneys and intestines — virtually every organ in the human body.


The studies that have been conducted into Covid-19 present a vast array of symptoms and long-term effects among those who suffered severe infections: scarring of lung tissue; kidney failure; inflammation of the heart muscle and arrhythmias; liver damage; cognitive impairment; psychosis mood disorder, and much more



What this means for the long-term health implications of patients has yet to be fully established, but the growing evidence suggests that even those who suffered from a mild case of Covid-19 may go on to struggle with issues long after the virus has left their bodies.

"What we have been seeing in hospitals is the tip of the iceberg," Professor Roberto Pedretti, head of cardiology at the Clinical Scientific Institute in Pavia, Italy, told Good Health.

"Our focus at the moment is treating patients at the acute stage to help them recover from Covid-19. But we also need to consider the future health impacts of the virus."

Lungs
A March report from China showed that of 70 patients who survived Covid-19 pneumonia, 66 had developed some form of lung damage that was visible in CT scans.
The damage ranged from the formation of blood vessel blockages within the lung's alveoli, which absorb oxygen, to scarring of lung tissue, researchers at Huazhong University of Science and Technology in Wuhan found. This scarring or thickening of lung tissue — known as pulmonary fibrosis — can lead to increased breathlessness among sufferers. There is currently no treatment that can stop or reverse this condition.

In a separate Wuhan study, researchers analysed the CT scans of 81 patients with Covid-19 and found signs of fibrosis even in those who had had no symptoms. Writing in the journal Lancet Infectious Diseases last April, scientists said it was unclear if these lung changes were "irreversible".




Separately, newly-released papers by the UK government's Scientific Advisory Group on Emergencies (Sage) have highlighted concern among British academics that the virus may cause "extreme tiredness and shortness of breath for several months" in patients.

SARS AND ITS AFFECT ON THE LUNGS
A 15-year follow-up study into Sars, a pathogen from the same coronavirus family as Covid-19, showed 10 out of 46 survivors still had reduced lung capacity after three years. Nearly 40 per cent of people experienced a permanent dysfunction involving the transfer of oxygen and carbon dioxide between the lung and the blood.

Minutes from a meeting on 7 May, attended by 50 people, including Sir Patrick Vallance and Professor Chris Whitty, state: "Sage also noted the existence of longer-term health sequelae (such as the persistence of extreme tiredness and shortness of breath for several months) and the importance of monitoring these impacts through longer-term cohort studies."

Even before the UK had even gone into lockdown, the country's Faculty of Intensive Care Medicine (FICM), a professional body responsible for training intensive care doctors, said some people who are struck down with severe cases of Covid-19 could be left with lung damage that takes as many as 15 years to heal.

The FICM highlighted that many admitted to intensive care have developed a condition called acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) — a powerful inflammatory response across the lungs that causes fluids to leak from blood vessels into the alveoli, making breathing impossible without medical assistance.

A similar message of concern has been raised by the chairman of the Dutch Association of Physicians in Chest Medicine and Tuberculosis, who has warned that thousands of recovered Covid-19 patients in the Netherlands may be left with permanent damage to their lungs.

Heart and blood vessels
A paper published in JAMA Cardiology last March documented heart damage in nearly 20 per cent of 416 hospitalised patients in Wuhan. Another study from the city showed that 44 per cent of 36 patients admitted to intensive care had arrhythmias (irregular heart rhythm).

These issues are thought to be linked to the body's 'cytokine storm' response, a hyper-inflammatory condition caused by an overactive immune system, seen among some coronavirus patients.

Studies suggest this can lead to the inflammation of the heart muscle (myocarditis), which may affect the organ's electrical system — thereby producing abnormal heart beats — as well as its ability to effectively pump blood around the body, resulting in breathlessness.

Cardiovascular complications are not unique to Covid-19. Many viral infections can cause myocarditis. Although most people recover from the condition with time, some do experience permanent damage to the heart muscle.


Disruption from Covid-19 also seems to extend to the blood itself. Among 184 Covid-19 patients in a Dutch ICU, 38 per cent had blood that clotted abnormally, and almost one-third already had clots, according to an April paper published in Thrombosis Research.

Kidneys
Although the lung appears to be the primary target zone for the virus, evidence suggests that Sars-CoV-2 is also targeting the kidneys in some patients.

According to research in Wuhan, 27 per cent of 85 hospitalised patients had kidney failure. A separate study found that 59 per cent of almost 200 hospitalised Covid-19 patients in China's Hubei and Sichuan provinces had protein in their urine, and 44 per cent had blood; both indicators of kidney damage.

Those with acute kidney injury (AKI), were more than five times as likely to die as Covid-19 patients without it, the same paper reported.

"If these folks are not dying of lung failure, they're dying of renal failure," Jennifer Frontera, of New York University's Langone Medical Center, told Science in April.

Brain
In a study of 214 Covid-19 patients, one-third experienced neurological symptoms, including dizziness, headache, and cognitive impairment.

At this stage, it is unclear what is driving these symptoms. Theories centre around the virus' impact on the body's neurons — the loss of smell and taste that some people have reported point to the pathogen's affect on these nerve cells — the inflammatory immune response, and the oxygen deprivation that has been recorded in patients.

[TheReturnOfTheSonOfTPPH]

Hehe, some three week old mash up in the Independent. Do you have any, y'know, cause & effect data? Of course not. It's essentially harmless to 99.99% of U60s. About as dangerous as 2 to 3 weeks of being alive. And nothing you've hysterically pasted proves otherwise. Did you know 98% of 'Covid victims' watched TV during their last month alive? Gotta be that. Come back with some real science. You won't, because anything actually comparing lockdown v no lockdown, or death demographi a will support everything I've said. Because I'm not a fear porn junkie bedwetter. Now go change those damp sheets.

[jobotic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31mlEEs9_Vk.

[Funcrusher]

Who's this old/new cunt then? He sounds really tough. I'm impressed.

Welcome to the return of classic exchanges like this.

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,22447.msg1990326.html#msg1990326

Instructive I suppose in this time of spurious and concocted accusations of antisemitism to be reminded what a real antisemite is like.

[TheReturnOfTheSonOfTPPH]

Except, people are only demonstrably 'wrong' when it comes to predictions, which is not the same as facts.

They're wrong to dismiss the truth even if that truth isn't evident to them at the moment they dismiss it. "I was wrong to..."

[Funcrusher]

Do you have any, y'know, cause & effect data?

Do you? No.

[TheReturnOfTheSonOfTPPH]

We all have access to the curves. Or rather, the one curve. And yes, they demonstrate that the UK lockdown was completely ineffective. You appear to be claiming otherwise, is that your position?

[Funcrusher]

We all have access to the curves. Or rather, the one curve. And yes, they demonstrate that the UK lockdown was completely ineffective. You appear to be claiming otherwise, is that your position?

So you can supply no data then?

[TheReturnOfTheSonOfTPPH]

Can I prove a negative? FFS.

We can compare the curves of nations who deployed hard lockdowns, partial or soft lockdowns & those who deployed no lockdown at all. They're identical. At similar latitudes, obvs.

[Funcrusher]

Can I prove a negative? FFS.

We can compare the curves of nations who deployed hard lockdowns, partial or so get lockdowns & those who deployed no lockdown at all. They're identical.

Where's the data for this?

[TheReturnOfTheSonOfTPPH]

Do you have access to the internet? (Beyond the Independent archives)

One bit of data you won't find is the UK recovery rate. Because it's way off agenda. Mad high.

[Funcrusher]

Do you have access to the internet?

Yes. It isn't showing me what you claim. Should be easy enough for you to supply a link to the data on which your claim is based.

[Barry Admin]

I've been reading about New Zealand's approach over the last few days: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2246858-why-new-zealand-decided-to-go-for-full-elimination-of-the-coronavirus/

New Zealand has been widely praised for its aggressive response to covid-19. At the time of writing, the country had just 10 active cases. But Michael Baker, the doctor who formulated New Zealand's elimination strategy, says that even some of his colleagues initially thought it was too radical a plan and resisted its implementation. "Some likened it to using a sledgehammer to kill a flea," he says.

The first case of covid-19 in New Zealand was recorded on 28 February. Like most countries, it initially planned to gradually tighten its control measures as the virus gained momentum. But Baker, a public health expert at the University of Otago who is on the government's covid-19 advisory panel, believed that this was the wrong approach. "I thought we should do it in the reverse order and throw everything at the pandemic at the start," he says.
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