The Far Left [split topic]

[Barry Admin]

Just a bit of proof here that attempts to shut down "free speech" aren't all down to the nebulous left: https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,80980.msg4250422.html#msg4250422

[here4glinner]

Just a bit of proof here that attempts to shut down "free speech" aren't all down to the nebulous left: https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,80980.msg4250422.html#msg4250422

There's also the designation of antifa as a terrorist organisation in the US, plus all their nutty attempts to restrict leftist speech such as flag burning. Or football msn canned for kneeling. I'm.sure I can think of some British examples

[jobotic]

The campaign to get rid of University staff who showed any remainer tendencies?

The campaign to rid the civil service of anyone who isn't fully committed to Vote Leave?

The campaign to remove anyone from anywhere that doesn't support the Israeli government in everything it does?

[lazyhour]

Very briefly, I'd say far leftism might be guided by a commitment to dismantle capitalism, abolish the police, disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure, open borders, authoritarian state censorship, street violence, and a Year Zero approach to rejecting the established culture, history and traditions of a society. There's an awful lot more to get through, as you probably know, and much overlap with the far right.

Hello, forgive me butting in, but to clarify, your definition of a far-left political philosophy includes, in your own words (more or less):

- abolish the police
- destabilise the concept of the family unit
- authoritarian state censorship
- open borders
- street violence
- reject the traditions, culture and history of your country

That seems like a pretty clear definition to me. Thank you for that. I'd just like to simply ask: do you think anyone on this forum is far left? Do you think any mainstream (or at least mainstream-tolerated) figures are far left? If so, who? Remember that they would have to agree with a majority of your list of ideological positions.

[Autopsy Turvey]

As I suspected, lot of waffle but no substance. And Christ you're tedious, do you talk like this in real life? Do cashier's eyes glaze over when they see you?

To be fair, the lady at Londis knows better than to ask me questions that require long, complex and tedious answers in the middle of the night.

If you think state executions are the only way to deal with serious crimes then you're beyond hope and not as centrist as you think you are.

Beyond hope!? I was being a little facetious there, I'm in two minds on the subject. Which is why I am such an awkward bullseye centrist freak, I think everyone's got one quarter of a good point, I just wish I could think of a way to put them all together in a way that makes everyone simultaneously happy and furious. I think extremism is fascinating, frightening, and frequently hilarious, but I can see the dangerous allure of it for the young and foolhardy in uncertain times.

Hello, forgive me butting in,

Not at all!

but to clarify, your definition of a far-left political philosophy includes, in your own words (more or less):
<save space blah blah>
That seems like a pretty clear definition to me. Thank you for that.

Pleasure! Obviously there are lots more, and they won't all intersect in everyone.

I'd just like to simply ask: do you think anyone on this forum is far left?

Unless they're just pretending! I can't know what's in their hearts, or why, but there's a few isn't it, and quite right too.

Do you think any mainstream (or at least mainstream-tolerated) figures are far left? If so, who? Remember that they would have to agree with a majority of your list of ideological positions.

I wouldn't necessarily say a majority, there are plenty more tenets and factions riven with splinters. Obviously ones like state censorship and street violence are general to both extremes, and not necessarily ones that serious people would espouse too passionately. Although street violence would include destruction of public property, which seems to be openly fashionable.

However, the majority of those ideological positions are the freely stated aims of a really popular radical far-left movement that has just lately had the entire mainstream left crippling their kneecaps before them. It's taken Matthew Le Tissier and Karl Henry, of all people, to openly question the dogma behind the BLM truism, the no-shit-Sherlockness of which has raked in millions to fight the good fight against law and order and stable family structures. Did nobody more politically astute notice the rest of the agenda, or did they know and approve?

I should say this is the reason I don't go in the anarcho cop killer commune formerly known as General Bullshit, to avoid the urge to prod these sore teeth and sail against the wind into the small hours. But if a Comedy Chat thread goes all militant polemical, I may attempt to fight fire with tedious waffle.

[evilcommiedictator]

Remember when Jonathan Pie was the most tedious thing in this thread? He's anti-brexit, but also anti-Labor, but also a lefty, but also anti-left things.

[here4glinner]

I wouldn't necessarily say a majority, there are plenty more tenets and factions riven with splinters. Obviously ones like state censorship and street violence are general to both extremes, and not necessarily ones that serious people would espouse too passionately. Although street violence would include destruction of public property, which seems to be openly fashionable.

However, the majority of those ideological positions are the freely stated aims of a really popular radical far-left movement that has just lately had the entire mainstream left crippling their kneecaps before them. It's taken Matthew Le Tissier and Karl Henry, of all people, to openly question the dogma behind the BLM truism, the no-shit-Sherlockness of which has raked in millions to fight the good fight against law and order and stable family structures. Did nobody more politically astute notice the rest of the agenda, or did they know and approve?

I should say this is the reason I don't go in the anarcho cop killer commune formerly known as General Bullshit, to avoid the urge to prod these sore teeth and sail against the wind into the small hours. But if a Comedy Chat thread goes all militant polemical, I may attempt to fight fire with tedious waffle.

So would it be fair to say the answer is, 'no, I cannot name any mainstream, or mainstream-tolerated figures, that are hard left.' Do you think there is anyone on this forum, or any minor internet personalities, or anyone you could name that are hard-left, based on your description of the hard-left? It looks to a passive observer that your description of the hard left is a strawman.

First time I heard the term hard left, it was to describe Jeremy Corbyn, and I don't believe any of the descriptors in your list would apply to him. Nor anyone who would vote for him.

I'm a little interested in exploring this aspect of your strawman with you, so long as we can discuss it straightforwardly.

- reject the traditions, culture and history of your country

Do you have any examples? I'm imagining you mean people who believe things like "Churchill was a racist" or "The Empire was bad?" Or perhaps "Gay marriage is a good thing," or "I am a vegan?"

[phantom_power]

How do BLM want to fight against "stable family structures" again? Must have missed that one

[dissolute ocelot]

- abolish the police
- authoritarian state censorship

I love how the far left are simultaneously wanting to establish a Stalinist thought-police state and campaigning to abolish the police.

[imitationleather]

Still, good news that Autopsy Turvey doesn't post in General Bullshit anymore.

[Bernice]

Hard left Muslim single mums in RAPE POLICE BABIES shocker

[Jumblegraws]

To be fair, the lady at Londis knows better than to ask me questions that require long, complex and tedious answers in the middle of the night.

Please ditch the conceit that the substance of your posts requires the text walls you use to express them. Your every post can be summed up as either "I'm a politically homeless freethinker, dontcha know!" and "hmmm but is it really fair to call them racist if you've never actually seen them strangle an ethnic minority person?"

[here4glinner]

P*kistani

You don't have to censor the word 'Pakistani' by the way.

[dissolute ocelot]

Between this and the Blackadder thread, the big question is, are pies intrinsically funny?

[thugler]

Good questions! Big answers. Books could be written. I'm boring enough. I've become happy to bandy the term about here, as an equal and opposite reaction to the way that the term 'far right' is bandied about with no adequate definition, often to describe liberal conservatives. Very briefly, I'd say far leftism might be guided by a commitment to dismantle capitalism, abolish the police, disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure, open borders, authoritarian state censorship, street violence, and a Year Zero approach to rejecting the established culture, history and traditions of a society. There's an awful lot more to get through, as you probably know, and much overlap with the far right.

Old Our Tommy didn't bring my attention to this subject, that was Nick Griffin would you believe. I saw him talking about the gang rape of thousands of white girls by P*kistani Muslim men and I thought, what a disgusting lying racist piece of shit. If there was any truth in his sordid Nazi propagandist fantasy then we'd have heard about it from another source. So it was double shocking when we did. Stopped clock etc.

The picture that eventually emerged, of an environment where people were frightened of jeopardising relations between communities with little social interaction, or being accused of propagating racist myths, made this a different sort of case from all the other lamentable instances of sexual violence in every other community. That hoary old cliche "it's political correctness gone mad" long ago became shorthand for harrumphing codgers who want to continue upsetting minorities, but this seemed to be an instance where the silly old phrase became legitimate and literal.

And I have seen the rebuttal, that people made up the bit about racism hoping it would get them off the hook in some way, but an atmosphere of fear does not sound implausible, given the reaction that Sarah Champion met with when she broached the issue, given the suspicion of malign motives evident whenever the subject comes up.

I read the article some time ago, and again before I posted it. It's a very diplomatic, sympathetic, tiptoe-on-eggshells analysis, which is understandable. Of course the majority of Muslims have no truck with this sort of depravity, equally obviously the majority of abuse is committed by the UK ethnic majority. I'm not disputing any of that, only the apparent assertion that 'Muslim rape gangs' do not exist.

I think anyone found unanimously guilty of rape, sexual violence or child abuse should be hanged by the neck until dead, but then I'm a bit old-fashioned. Seriously though, I think I've cured my own insomnia at this point, best wait and see what the report says.

Incidentally I may have gone a bit far with the put-downs earlier, it's tit for tat rough and tumble and I'm all for the adversarial system but apologies for any excess nastiness. Any day I'm in here at length it means there's not much work on, which is a frustrating situation, but we've all got steam to blow off.

First of all, by 'disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure' do you mean allow people to marry/divorce and have relationships with whoever they want?

Secondly they aren't 'muslim rape gangs' are they. They are people of numerous ethnicities exploiting and raping children, some of them may be 'muslim' in terms of what religion they were brought up in, but the idea that they are devout followers who have decided raping children is fine is bizarre. Pretending this is some sort of colossal problem with muslims in general is insane and inaccurate, the vast majority of this sort of thing is done by white people, and we don't pearl clutch about 'christian rape gangs' do we? The term 'Muslim rape gangs' is entirely a concoction of the far right who wish to demonize people. Why do you put crimes committed by people who aren't like you on a pedestal above everything else?

Can you show me some of the leftists on here (or elsewhere) who advocate abolishing the police entirely? rather than adjusting the structure/training of police, spending more money on programs that reduce the likelihood of people getting into crime, and the ending of pointless endless wars on minor drug users.

[Autopsy Turvey]

So would it be fair to say the answer is, 'no, I cannot name any mainstream, or mainstream-tolerated figures, that are hard left.'

I don't think it's a reasonable use of my or your time to name and shame the individuals who have advocated for organisations that espouse these ideas. Anyone who already has an informed overview of the political scene will be able to do this for themselves.

It looks to a passive observer that your description of the hard left is a strawman.

Well by all means put me right! Are none of the tenets I listed real far left positions?

First time I heard the term hard left, it was to describe Jeremy Corbyn, and I don't believe any of the descriptors in your list would apply to him. Nor anyone who would vote for him.

Bless! I forget how young some of you folk are. I am a big fan of youthful naivety, but it might be worth reading up a bit more if you don't think that a very great many Corbyn fans want to dismantle capitalism or open borders.

Do you have any examples? I'm imagining you mean people who believe things like "Churchill was a racist" or "The Empire was bad?"

Both of these statements are as inadequately and ahistorically simplistic as saying "Churchill was not a racist" or "The Empire was good". Obviously there are British cultural traditions that everyone loves, and the left can cherry-pick a few Tolpuddle Martyrs, Chartists and Peasants' Revolters to be proud of, but for the most part in my experience the far left seek to characterise British history and culture as the product of white supremacist patriarchal Christian oppression. I know for many the question here will be 'in what way is it not that?' rather than 'do you have any specific examples of the far left advocating to reject Britain's historical and cultural legacy?'.

First of all, by 'disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure' do you mean allow people to marry/divorce and have relationships with whoever they want?

I doubt it's that simple, but it's not my phrase, you'd have to ask the BLM think tank that came up with it.

How do BLM want to fight against "stable family structures" again? Must have missed that one

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and "villages" that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

That whole page is a good sampler of far left aims, minus the boring old 'workers control the means of production' stuff.

Secondly they aren't 'muslim rape gangs' are they... the idea that they are devout followers who have decided raping children is fine is bizarre. Pretending this is some sort of colossal problem with muslims in general is insane and inaccurate,

It's not colossal, but there is a particular type of abuse with a remarkably disproportionate demographic of offender. It's a sensitive area, of course, but it is possible that there is a religious and cultural dimension. There's some hair-raising stuff here and various follow-on links, so hair-raising I tried to ascertain if some of this had been hacked by the BNP, but apparently not: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Pedophilia

the vast majority of this sort of thing is done by white people, and we don't pearl clutch about 'christian rape gangs' do we?

Well, the go-to association for a Catholic priest is that he bums kids, but the Bible doesn't seem quite as explicitly pro the subject as yer Koran. White Christians don't seem to organise in gangs in this sort of pattern, but I take your point, and it's not something I ever hoped to discuss in Comedy Chat.

The term 'Muslim rape gangs' is entirely a concoction of the far right who wish to demonize people. Why do you put crimes committed by people who aren't like you on a pedestal above everything else?

The phrase was not introduced into this thread by me, and has only been used by me with inverted commas. But it's a less euphemistic term than the more popular, and way more vague and benign-sounding, "Asian grooming gangs", as if sharing drugged pubescent girls around your family and friends is like brushing hair, as if it's something that every country in Asia has an equal propensity for.

Can you show me some of the leftists on here (or elsewhere) who advocate abolishing the police entirely?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html

I get the argument that you sack all the racist oppressors and reallocate police funding to other programmes designed to stop crime ever happening, and it sounds lovely, but a wee bit like a deluded unworkable utopian dreamworld, which is a common thread among extremist worldviews.

[here4glinner]

How old is this old timer? 'oh bless you're so young,' thanks mate, I'm 32. People don't say that to me often enough these days. Also tbh I don't think your analysis of what 'the hard left' wants when referring to the 'hard left' in the 1980s is of much relevance these days. That's 40 years ago. Your interpretation did seem a little bit out of date, to be honest - I was going to say it sounded like you were talking about those red street-fighting groups from the 80s. If I was my age when Kinnock was leader of the opposition, I'd be 69 now.

Anyway I said 'if you can discuss it with me straightforwardly.' Not 'the Tolpuddle Martyrs were good though, weren't they? But the hard left don't think so.'

So you can talk about the Peterloo Massacre and the workers refusing to sell cotton to the American confederacy; typically criticisms of British imperialism relate to what the rich and powerful did. But like I said, straightforward, no rambling prose thanks.

I'd say the 'hard left', these days, are into two or three key concerns:

- climate change
- redistribution of wealth
- minority rights (what might be defined as 'identity politics'.

[Buelligan]

Is it too late to say that Trevor Phillips is an absolute shit?  Hope not.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Do you think this thread is representative of your best work Turvey?

[Buelligan]

It's mad.  I can't even be bothered to read most of it.  Proper lunatic fantasy.

[bgmnts]

Well apparently getting rid of racism and police oppression is the lunatic fantasy.

[thugler]

I doubt it's that simple, but it's not my phrase, you'd have to ask the BLM think tank that came up with it.

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and "villages" that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Sounds like a marginalised community talking about supporting each other. You'd need to explain why this is a problem? Also the sentences immediately surrounding this are ones about supporting women/mothers and queer people / combatting ageism etc. This is all related.

Genuinely find it hard to believe what issue you would have with that.

It's not colossal, but there is a particular type of abuse with a remarkably disproportionate demographic of offender. It's a sensitive area, of course, but it is possible that there is a religious and cultural dimension. There's some hair-raising stuff here and various follow-on links, so hair-raising I tried to ascertain if some of this had been hacked by the BNP, but apparently not: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Pedophilia


Well, the go-to association for a Catholic priest is that he bums kids, but the Bible doesn't seem quite as explicitly pro the subject as yer Koran. White Christians don't seem to organise in gangs in this sort of pattern, but I take your point, and it's not something I ever hoped to discuss in Comedy Chat.

The phrase was not introduced into this thread by me, and has only been used by me with inverted commas. But it's a less euphemistic term than the more popular, and way more vague and benign-sounding, "Asian grooming gangs", as if sharing drugged pubescent girls around your family and friends is like brushing hair, as if it's something that every country in Asia has an equal propensity for.

There's types of abuse with a remarkably white demographic of offender. That doesn't mean ethnicity or religion is somehow relevant to their behavior here. This still doesn't explain why the far right and yourself (supposedly centrist), is obsessed with this issue and utterly uninterested in any other form of this abuse that doesn't give you a stick to bash muslims and brown people.
Isn't at least one of the members of one of these 'muslim rape gangs' a white person?

You might be able to produce an argument that the ethnicity of these people was a factor in getting the local authority/police to act as quickly as they should have, but that's beside the point really.

There's some hair-raising stuff here and various follow-on links, so hair-raising I tried to ascertain if some of this had been hacked by the BNP, but apparently not: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Pedophilia


Well, the go-to association for a Catholic priest is that he bums kids, but the Bible doesn't seem quite as explicitly pro the subject as yer Koran. White Christians don't seem to organise in gangs in this sort of pattern, but I take your point, and it's not something I ever hoped to discuss in Comedy Chat.

Wow, some truly vile shit here. This website is far from neutral on the topic and was literally set up to criticise Islam. It's also the same shit we've all heard before. There is underage marriage in the bible too. It's painfully obvious that you've not read the Quran either and instead have decided a few highly dubious interpretations provided by this grotty website, backed up with cherry picked statistics.

The Bible here: Numbers 31:17-18

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Not that I would suggest for a moment that Christians a pro paedo either.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html

I get the argument that you sack all the racist oppressors and reallocate police funding to other programmes designed to stop crime ever happening, and it sounds lovely, but a wee bit like a deluded unworkable utopian dreamworld, which is a common thread among extremist worldviews.

Despite the bluntness of this article. I think it's clear if you actually read it, first of all it's talking about a highly militarised US police force with an insane budget (thus the defund part becomes far more legitimate). Also it's not suggesting abolish the police and replace it with nothing, just that the current structure of the police force in the US is so bad it must be removed entirely.

I personally think the phrase defund/abolish the police is a poor one as it doesn't adequately explain what the plan is. It's also a very different situation in the UK. But much of the suggestions of funding basic things like education in order the likelihood of people turning to crime is about as far from 'unworkable' as you can get. There are plenty of examples of it happening now and in history all over the world. Certainly the idea that it's a good use of the police's time to go after people doing recreational drugs and throwing them in prison for ridiculous sentences for it is not far fetched either.

[thugler]

I'd say the 'hard left', these days, are into two or three key concerns:

- climate change
- redistribution of wealth
- minority rights (what might be defined as 'identity politics'.

I think the term 'hard left' is used way too broadly.

But I'd add to this list:
- Nationalisation of major industries/public transport
- Ending drug war / decriminalisation of drugs
- Action to combat tax avoidance/evasion

[here4glinner]

I think the term 'hard left' is used way too broadly.

But I'd add to this list:
- Nationalisation of major industries/public transport
- Ending drug war / decriminalisation of drugs
- Action to combat tax avoidance/evasion

I'd agree. I think I might have not included those, to some extent, because I consider them as part and parcel of my three bulletpoints. But you are correct, I'd think there's unanimous agreement on the 'hard left' over those issues.

[Sebastian Cobb]

It's mad.  I can't even be bothered to read most of it.  Proper lunatic fantasy.

You could say that about most threads. Go on try it.

It works doesn't it?

[dissolute ocelot]

- climate change
- redistribution of wealth
- minority rights (what might be defined as 'identity politics'.

- Nationalisation of major industries/public transport
- Ending drug war / decriminalisation of drugs
- Action to combat tax avoidance/evasion

Most of those are or have been Lib Dem policies, with the exception of large-scale nationalisation (I guess you mean of things like banks). Admittedly, their transport policy these days is fudge, fudge, fudge, and they're less keen on redistribution of wealth than in the Charles Kennedy days when they were the only party promising an income tax rise.

[here4glinner]

Most of those are or have been Lib Dem policies, with the exception of large-scale nationalisation (I guess you mean of things like banks). Admittedly, their transport policy these days is fudge, fudge, fudge, and they're less keen on redistribution of wealth than in the Charles Kennedy days.

Yeah I'd say the Lib Dems are very pro-capitalist these days, which - to me, a hard-leftie - is useless for climate change and wealth redistribution.

The Greens and a Corbyn Labour Party would've advocated all those views, too. No street violence or ending nuclear families though.

[chveik]

I'd say the 'hard left', these days, are into two or three key concerns:

- climate change
- redistribution of wealth
- minority rights (what might be defined as 'identity politics'.

there's also one little thing called anticapitalism

[thugler]

Most of those are or have been Lib Dem policies

Oh Lib dem policies. The ones that they will implement, when they win the election! hahahahahahhaaha

Yes that's true when they've been pretending to veer to the left briefly to outflank Labour, then they move to the right of Labour. Pointless waste of a party.

[here4glinner]

there's also one little thing called anticapitalism

yeah I'd bundle that as an element of wealth redistribution and climate change. I'm not sure that all hard-lefties would be totally for the end of capitalism, but a big reigning in of it, more regulation. Not a total state-controlled economy, maybe more Norwegian.

Alas, Corbyn or the Greens never call for the workers to seize the means of production, or at least it isn't in the manifesto. Even Bernie Sanders never called for socialism - although he might have even called himself a socialist.

I'd say there's a strong view that capitalism has gone too far, which would be deemed anticapitalist. More calling for us to lean closer towards socialism, rather than saying that everyone down to the window cleaner should work for the state.