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March 28, 2024, 07:42:10 PM

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Britain to allow up to 3 million Hongkongers to move to UK and become citizens

Started by Mister Six, July 01, 2020, 09:58:08 PM

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Paul Calf

Quote from: TheBrownBottle on July 02, 2020, 02:17:19 PM
Christ, moral relativism is a right load of pish.

I'm an internationalist & a human being.  The Tories are a shower of cunts, but they're cuddly compared with the Chinese govt.  Citing historical crimes of the British empire does nothing to help those in peril today.  The idea that the UK govt is as oppressive as that of the Chinese govt isn't just wanky middle-class self-flagellation; it's ludicrous and utterly offensive.  The British employed concentration camps in the Second Boer War - but you'd need to be 140 years old to have taken part in that act of brutality.  The Chinese govt currently has thousands of Uighurs in concentration camps right now.  The British strapped rebellious sepoys to cannons following the Indian Mutiny.  You'd need to be 180 years old to have taken part in that.  The Chinese govt today announces death sentences in fucking sports stadiums to braying mobs.  The Factory Act (1847) introduced reforms which meant women & children were restricted to a ten-hour-working day, beginning on the same day as the beginning of the 150-year-long British rule in HK.  Children in China today work in factories for more than ten hours a day (making products that many of buy, of course.  Probably most of us to read / write on here).

If you want to tell me that the British govt are a bunch of nasty cunts who arm oppressive regimes for profit, conduct unnecessary wars or have yet to apologise / pay reparations for past crimes, I'm in complete agreement.  But don't conflate racism & western exceptionalism with reasonable criticism of the lack of basic human rights in the world's second biggest economy. The notion that we cannot criticise other govts due to the inequities of our own is nonsense - particularly given that I didn't vote for the cunt in No. 10.

Thank you.

^What this guy said.

Crisps?

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on July 02, 2020, 10:22:48 AM
I don't think anyone on here thinks Britain is great, supports Johnson or is prouD of our imperialist crimes. Most people on here are very critical of human rights in Britain and the actions of the British government. Shouldn't progressives be critical of any government no matter how much their regime impacts them?

And yet what we see in this thread is praise for the British government, defensiveness about Britain and the British Empire, whining about "whataboutism" and ridiculous, paranoid accusations that people with different opinions are Chinese agents.

Funny how instinctively reactionary, nationalist and tribal people are revealed to be in such two minute hate threads.

Quote from: RenegadeScrew on July 02, 2020, 11:32:24 AM
You don't need to poorly equate the UK and China in order to simply say that a Tory government cares about capital flows over freedom.

Flag waving was brought up as an example of how Britain is Greater than China. I pointed out that Britain bans flags it doesn't like too. Next time try reading a thread before posting to it.

Quote
the US dominated world is bad enough. Let's keep it that way

No, let's not.

chveik

Quote from: RenegadeScrew on July 02, 2020, 11:32:24 AM
And if you want to be so cynical - the US dominated world is bad enough. Let's keep it that way, especially if the main threat to it is China.

where's that vomiting emoji?

Bernice

Quote from: Crisps? on July 02, 2020, 02:56:46 PM
And yet what we see in this thread is praise for the British government,

Or people sayings it's shit and this is a cynical move but with a positive outcome for HK citizens.

Quotedefensiveness about Britain and the British Empire
Or people acknowledging the crimes of the empire but pointing out that doesn't absolve Chinese responsibility for its own imperial machinations.

Quotewhining about "whataboutism"

"whining"

Quoteand ridiculous, paranoid accusations that people with different opinions are Chinese agents.

Or an obvious joke.

QuoteNo, let's not.

We can agree on this at least.

Bazooka

Quote from: Crisps? on July 02, 2020, 02:56:46 PM
And yet what we see in this thread is praise for the British government, defensiveness about Britain and the British Empire, whining about "whataboutism" and ridiculous, paranoid accusations that people with different opinions

How would you have it in your utopia, everyone rests on the past, and denounces the reality that all nations have moved on in various forms, never criticize because of all past wrong doings through association?

marquis_de_sad

Despite his emphasis on colonial legacies, Crisps has already dismissed the handover agreements as an "ancient 1980s treaty", so I think it's fair to say that he's arguing purely in bad faith. Left wing defences of CCP policy in Hong Kong and other areas like Xinjiang are so weak that they require all this sound and fury in order to have even a semblance of rhetorical power. How else could a leftist defend an openly authoritarian and colonialist regime?

RenegadeScrew

Quote from: Crisps? on July 02, 2020, 02:56:46 PM
No, let's not.

So you support China as global superpower?  You have to choose one of the two remember. 

Think of it as similar as to how no one has ever managed to oppose Chinese policy in HK and oppose British imperialism at the same time.

Zetetic

Let them in, but they have to swear allegiance to Henry, last of the Qing dynasty.

Crisps?

Quote from: Bazooka on July 02, 2020, 03:19:05 PM
How would you have it in your utopia, everyone rests on the past, and denounces the reality that all nations have moved on in various forms, never criticize because of all past wrong doings through association?

I'd rather people didn't dress up their British nationalism as concern for another country.

At least marquis_de_sad, with his continual ranting about "leftists", isn't trying to hide his true politics.

Quote from: RenegadeScrew on July 02, 2020, 03:51:37 PM
So you support China as global superpower?  You have to choose one of the two remember. 

Why do I have to choose one of the two? Until 30 years ago we had two superpowers. During WWII we had five superpowers. The point isn't to have China or anyone else lightyears ahead, but to have a balance between, say, the US, China, Russia, India, the EU, and other emerging powers, by drastically reducing the power and influence of the US.



marquis_de_sad

Quote from: Crisps? on July 02, 2020, 04:18:23 PMAt least marquis_de_sad, with his continual ranting about "leftists", isn't trying to hide his true politics.

Like I said, bad faith.

RenegadeScrew

Quote from: Crisps? on July 02, 2020, 04:18:23 PM
Why do I have to choose one of the two? Until 30 years ago we had two superpowers. During WWII we had five superpowers. The point isn't to have China or anyone else lightyears ahead, but to have a balance between, say, the US, China, Russia, India, the EU, and other emerging powers, by drastically reducing the power and influence of the US.

I was making a point about the binary choice you seem to be enforcing on anyone who criticises Chinese policy.  You reacted like everyone in here is Kyle Bass and they haven't shut the f up about China for about 2 years.

Obviously I agree with you (although if we are being idealistic I'm sure we'd choose other countries).  If you want any of those mentioned to have superpower status (or think they will get it) then I think critiquing them when necessary is necessary. 

honeychile

Quote from: RenegadeScrew on July 02, 2020, 06:03:52 PMObviously I agree with you (although if we are being idealistic I'm sure we'd choose other countries).

Bhutan, Botswana, Costa Rica, Iceland, and Uruguay to be the only five permanent members of the security council.

All Surrogate

Quote from: Pearly-Dewdrops Drops on July 01, 2020, 11:43:14 PM... Western finance-imperialists or concern trolls ...

You missed out lackeys, petty bourgeis and mad dogs.

Sometimes I wonder if I should despise the left-wing more than the right.

Mister Six

Quote from: TheBrownBottle on July 02, 2020, 02:17:19 PM
The notion that we cannot criticise other govts due to the inequities of our own is nonsense - particularly given that I didn't vote for the cunt in No. 10.

Just on that last point - I find the equation of governments, countries and people extremely worrying. China does it, of course, because it makes the Chinese people feel insecure and defensive when Beijing's policies are criticised (indeed, the government censures media for "hurting the feelings of the Chinese people"). I don't think we should do it here.

chveik

Quote from: All Surrogate on July 02, 2020, 06:16:31 PM
Sometimes I wonder if I should despise the left-wing more than the right.

have you really thought this through?

RenegadeScrew

Quote from: honeychile on July 02, 2020, 06:15:48 PM
Bhutan, Botswana, Costa Rica, Iceland, and Uruguay to be the only five permanent members of the security council.

I don't know much about them but I think Uruguay legalised weed and you can make hash oil with the gas from Bhutan so I'll sign up on that basis and misunderstanding.

Crisps?

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on July 02, 2020, 04:20:58 PM
Like I said, bad faith.

Noooooo0! Everyone knows saying "bad faith", "bad faith", best read in a Dalek voice, trumps any argument...

Quote from: RenegadeScrew on July 02, 2020, 06:03:52 PM
I was making a point about the binary choice you seem to be enforcing on anyone who criticises Chinese policy.  You reacted like everyone in here is Kyle Bass and they haven't shut the f up about China for about 2 years.

No, I said interference by the UK (aka USA) within HK/China, which we all know would not be tolerated in reverse, is just another way to undermine a threat to the established international order (American/White Power).

Outside CAB the internet hasn't shut up about China for at least six months, usually in racist dog-whistle threads about the "CCP". Seeing people here taking such a strident line against someone not spouting anti-China rhetoric, including weird and fucking stupid insinuations about their motives, is unbelievable.

QuoteObviously I agree with you (although if we are being idealistic I'm sure we'd choose other countries).  If you want any of those mentioned to have superpower status (or think they will get it) then I think critiquing them when necessary is necessary.

I just picked them because they're relatively major powers. I'd much rather all countries broke apart into the smallest viable independent state.

nw83

Genuine question - what flags are you referring to? And what kind of propaganda can you be arrested for watching (I can only think of ISIS bomb-making videos, etc)?

Edit: I once saw someone arrested in Track Records in York for wearing the Cradle of Filth 'Jesus Is a Cunt' t-shirt. Just thought I'd add that.

Quote from: Crisps? on July 02, 2020, 10:15:31 AM
Yeah, Britain is just Great isn't it. Bringing the oppressed millionaires of Hong Kong to Freedom. Jolly good show, Boris. And British imperialist crimes and atrocities that are the root cause of this? Not relevant. Bobby Sands? No surrender! What fucking arselicking shitshow of a thread this is.

You can be arrested for waving flags deemed ideologically unsound by the British regime (flags I doubt China has any problem with); as of last year you can also get 15 years inside just for watching the wrong kind of "propaganda".

Look over there though, that country you don't live in, whose regime impacts you in no way, that's what you should be worried about.

This isn't about HK freedom, which obviously never existed when we were in charge, or about some ancient 1980s treaty, unless we're just telling China to wait 27 more years before opening the gulags, and we knew exactly what China was like 8 years before the hand back.

This is simply about exploiting another situation to undermine the major threat to centuries of White (and especially American) domination of the world.

nw83

I live in Hong Kong, in Causeway Bay on the road parallel to many of the protests, and saw that arrest with my own eyes. He wasn't even displaying it. It was in his bag and he was searched. News stations showed images of the arrest and the flag - but later in the day, blurred the flag, unsure if them showing it even in the context of a news story is legal or not. That's what the new laws mean.

I keep thinking there must come a point when apologists for the CCP will think 'right, this truly is indefensible, I'm going to slink off now' - Tibet (historically or things like ethnically Tibetan people not being allowed to have passports, because the government knows they'll immediately fly away and claim asylum - just like minorities in Britain!), Taiwan (do the Taiwanese people only dislike the CCP because of American propaganda, I wonder), laws prohibiting boo-ing the national anthem, Jasic 'incident,' the Causeway Bay bookseller arrests, Gui Minhai's latest arrest, people 'voluntarily' giving up their citizenship in Chinese prisons, the new vaguely worded laws that potentially prohibit any government criticism, etc, etc - but it's not happening.
I often think of this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Caldwell

Quote from: Mister Six on July 02, 2020, 01:07:41 AM
You can be arrested and imprisoned for three years (at least) for holding up a flag calling for Hong Kong to be separate from China.

Does the same thing happen to Scottish people who call for independence?

Paul Calf

Quote from: nw83 on July 04, 2020, 12:03:48 PM

Edit: I once saw someone arrested in Track Records in York for wearing the Cradle of Filth 'Jesus Is a Cunt' t-shirt. Just thought I'd add that.


Heh. We've almost certainly met at some point.

Paul Calf

Quote from: nw83 on July 04, 2020, 12:23:46 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Caldwell


Quotea supporter of the Khmer Rouge.

Jesus fuck.

Another idiot who doesn't understand that Asian communism isn't redistributive or international, but oligarchical and nationalist. It's hard to understand how delusions like this survive contact with reality.

greenman

It seems to be based off an IMHO largely false idea that the western establishment and China have been mostly in conflict in recent decades when really its been mostly a case of appeasement in order to favour certain business interests.

RenegadeScrew

Quote from: Crisps? on July 04, 2020, 01:42:52 AM
No, I said interference by the UK (aka USA) within HK/China, which we all know would not be tolerated in reverse, is just another way to undermine a threat to the established international order (American/White Power).

Outside CAB the internet hasn't shut up about China for at least six months, usually in racist dog-whistle threads about the "CCP". Seeing people here taking such a strident line against someone not spouting anti-China rhetoric, including weird and fucking stupid insinuations about their motives, is unbelievable.

I don't think the UK (aka USA) opening up borders is equivalent to meddling in Korea and acting like it doesn't border China.  I'm not sure what the UK could really do if China decided to open up borders to oppressed Northern Irish catholics.  And it would be a good thing for oppressed catholics, if they weren't jumping out the frying pan and into the fire.

"Not spouting anti-china rhetoric" is a weird way to describe someone who was making ridiculous and preposterous comparisons between China and the UK.  Plus, it is an insinuation that everyone else was spouting anti-china rhetoric when they were pointing at a shit show in Hong Kong.

If there was a thread about Saudi human rights, and I jumped in to say "but you can't do this in Europe, etc" you surely wouldn't describe me as the only one "not spouting anti-Saudi rhetoric"

Mister Six

Quote from: greenman on July 04, 2020, 01:04:55 PM
It seems to be based off an IMHO largely false idea that the western establishment and China have been mostly in conflict in recent decades when really its been mostly a case of appeasement in order to favour certain business interests.

Yeah, Washington was quite happy to let Beijing have more or less what it wanted - with gentle, ineffectual pushback (via freedom of navigation operations, selling arms to Taiwan etc) on its South and East China Sea claims - until Trump got in and started listening to China hawks.

Once it was reframed as an us v them dichotomy with America's place as sole superpower threatened, however, even the US politicians whose stock portfolios were buoyed up by cheap Chinese manufacturing turned against Beijing. That's basically only been the last couple of years, though, aided by US public sentiment turning against China and the impending presidential election.

Christ, if you want to believe that US and UK media are secretly shaping public opinion for their governmental overlords, then back in the early 10s, when I moved out to China, UK telly was full of puff piece shows promoting China as a tourist destination and talking about its "complex history and recent dramatic changes".

If Xi hadn't pissed about being so triumphalist and pushing his Made in China 2025 plan, a roadmap to China's global technological dominance - and if some standard GOP or Dem drone had gotten in in 2016 - then China might still have been able to fly under America's radar for a decade or two longer. (I've heard word that there are ructions in the CPC because of this, and displeasure towards Xi has been growing, although I doubt it will eventuate into a coup).

marquis_de_sad

Quote from: Mister Six on July 04, 2020, 03:08:23 PM
Yeah, Washington was quite happy to let Beijing have more or less what it wanted - with gentle, ineffectual pushback (via freedom of navigation operations, selling arms to Taiwan etc) on its South and East China Sea claims - until Trump got in and started listening to China hawks.

To put it more plainly: the US significantly increased their military presence in East Asia in order to balance power away from China, and China reacted in the predictable manner. The unambiguous result of this policy was to worsen tensions in the region. If a policy has the military at its core, it cannot be called "gentle".

Quote from: Crisps? on July 04, 2020, 01:42:52 AM
Outside CAB the internet hasn't shut up about China for at least six months, usually in racist dog-whistle threads about the "CCP".

Your thinking seems to be: right wingers in the West supported the Hong Kong protests because they don't like the CCP, therefore, support of the HK protests is inherently right wing.

Urinal Cake

I don't know how anyone can seperate history and context from this issue. The truth is the US, UK, Spain etc have committed crimes against humanity that they do not acknowledge and have not paid the price for. Not some distant part shit but stuff that is ingrained in the people's psyche. It is like accusing POC of anti-white 'racism'. China now that it has some power just wants to get away with what the big boys have gotten away with. Some people's argument is that if this all happened a couple of centuries ago. But right now China is having it's consolidation of the British Isles moment (centuries). I mean what are the Falun Gong but the new Catholics? Is it right? No but hell if everyone else has gotten away with it why can't China?

And who the fuck gave the fucking Saud Family power and who the fuck props it up with weapons, resources and PR?

Mister Six

...and if everybody else pushed a Uighur family off a cliff, would you do it too?

The desire to have their day in the sun being Billy Big Bollocks is understandable. That doesn't make it defensible. It certainly doesn't make it a good idea.

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on July 04, 2020, 05:29:26 PM
To put it more plainly: the US significantly increased their military presence in East Asia in order to balance power away from China, and China reacted in the predictable manner. The unambiguous result of this policy was to worsen tensions in the region. If a policy has the military at its core, it cannot be called "gentle".

Sailing some ships through international waters is gentle as fuck, come on, don't be daft.

RenegadeScrew

Quote from: Urinal Cake on July 04, 2020, 07:31:13 PM
I don't know how anyone can seperate history and context from this issue. The truth is the US, UK, Spain etc have committed crimes against humanity that they do not acknowledge and have not paid the price for. Not some distant part shit but stuff that is ingrained in the people's psyche. It is like accusing POC of anti-white 'racism'. China now that it has some power just wants to get away with what the big boys have gotten away with. Some people's argument is that if this all happened a couple of centuries ago. But right now China is having it's consolidation of the British Isles moment (centuries). I mean what are the Falun Gong but the new Catholics? Is it right? No but hell if everyone else has gotten away with it why can't China?

And who the fuck gave the fucking Saud Family power and who the fuck props it up with weapons, resources and PR?

Talking about Spanish colonial history isn't adding context to the issue.  Or certainly not adding any context that is valuable.  What is happening in Hong Kong isn't similar to say Zimbabwe where the UK was directly involved and responsible. 

The fuck (US) propping up the Saudi Royals is relevant if the issue is the Chinese propping up NK.  It even shows up the latter as more justifiable (imo).

With your logic, the US are justified in propping up the Saudis for geopolitical reasons because they are just following in the footsteps of (insert world power) propping up dictators in (insert shithole here).  We did it, Spain did it, Portugal did it, the Catholic church did it.  Why can't America?

It is weird you even have a problem with Saudi royal power anyway.  You obviously are not aware of the British royal family, the crimes they have committed, and how they haven't paid for it.  When the Saudis oppress their people maybe it is just their peasants revolt. 

bgmnts

Quote from: Urinal Cake on July 04, 2020, 07:31:13 PM
I don't know how anyone can seperate history and context from this issue. The truth is the US, UK, Spain etc have committed crimes against humanity that they do not acknowledge and have not paid the price for. Not some distant part shit but stuff that is ingrained in the people's psyche. It is like accusing POC of anti-white 'racism'. China now that it has some power just wants to get away with what the big boys have gotten away with. Some people's argument is that if this all happened a couple of centuries ago. But right now China is having it's consolidation of the British Isles moment (centuries). I mean what are the Falun Gong but the new Catholics? Is it right? No but hell if everyone else has gotten away with it why can't China?

And who the fuck gave the fucking Saud Family power and who the fuck props it up with weapons, resources and PR?

Where is the line drawn, historically?

Mister Six

I mean, Christ, before Empire, Britain was constantly being invaded - by the French, the Romans, the Vikings. So was Empire all right because it was our "turn"?