"A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"

[Jumblegraws]

The ones whose beliefs have no bearing on their job. So if someone chooses to announce they have a dislike for a specific group of people (or a liking in the wrong way) and has a position of authority over members of that group, they should be sacked, not even because they said a bad thing, but because they can no longer be assumed to be acting impartially.

I'm open to the idea of reforming employment law in a way that makes people more secure in their livelihoods, but I find the idea of forcing, for instance, some local small business to keep on a janitor who's been openly racists outside of working hours just because that person isn't in the sort of position of power you're getting at. How do you balance the rights of employees with the rights of employers to protect their goodwill?

[idunnosomename]

i think we should lock up men who walk around with their shirts off

[jobotic]

You're not allowed to be naked in public spaces in the UK most of the time, rightly or wrongly. (Wrongly, I reckon, on balance. The ECHR disagrees.)

Woah, being naked is anti-semitic now? This looks bad for Corbyn (when he's naked)

[Buelligan]

He's always naked. Underneath his uniform. You can't see it because he constantly maintains a facade to fool us all with.

[JaDanketies]

So long as employers give their staff a formal disciplinary process. Going viral for one racist tweet should get you a verbal warning, then a written warning, etc... and dragging your employers' name through the mud could be construed as gross misconduct, if you're tweeting racist stuff from an account that is linked to your employer. If you get fired for saying something stupid on social media on an account that isn't explicitly linked to your employer - i.e. if you were doxed - then employment tribunals should successfully rule that you should have at least had a formal verbal warning and then a written warning.

No protections for the self-employed, but we knew what we were getting into. You can't force our clients to continue working with us if they don't want to.

On a related note, any kind of stigma associated with attempting to remain anonymous on the internet should be crushed. Anyone who calls for everyone on Twitter to use their real name should be roundly condemned as a fool.

[Crisps?]

And who decides that?  Who decides the line of morality that can or cannot be crossed?  Is it a panel of the Great and the Good, Chomsky and Rowling perhaps?  Or is it all of us?

It's probably their employer.

I'm open to the idea of reforming employment law in a way that makes people more secure in their livelihoods, but I find the idea of forcing, for instance, some local small business to keep on a janitor who's been openly racists outside of working hours just because that person isn't in the sort of position of power you're getting at. How do you balance the rights of employees with the rights of employers to protect their goodwill?

I'd say the employee's personal opinions and what they do outside of work are not the employer's business, if they don't affect how they do the job and the employee is not doing anything to imply the company endorses the opinions.

[Barry Admin]

On a related note, any kind of stigma associated with attempting to remain anonymous on the internet should be crushed. Anyone who calls for everyone on Twitter to use their real name should be roundly condemned as a fool.

Yeah, that's an excellent point, I still remember how scared most users were of the internet back in the late 90s. "You're not even posting under your real name" is seen as a kind of cheap, automatic debate-winner by your blue tick celebs, but gee, I wonder if any of these folks might have an ulterior motive for wanting the personal details of plebs that really hack them off.

I would bet at least one of these wanks bemoaning cancel culture has also done one of those "I hunt down and confront my trolls" things.

But individuals aren't the problem, eh? Rather, it's when people group together and form a "mob" - that's the term I'm seeing all the time at the minute. From Black Lives Matter; to the protesting of Nazi art and platforming of Nazi speakers; to the criticism of transphobic celebrities spreading fear and bigotry.

All the work of "the mob." An unthinking, seething mass.

[Retinend]

On a related note, any kind of stigma associated with attempting to remain anonymous on the internet should be crushed. Anyone who calls for everyone on Twitter to use their real name should be roundly condemned as a fool.

How about we condemn everyone on Twitter as a fool and cover our bases?

[JaDanketies]

I'd say the employee's personal opinions and what they do outside of work are not the employer's business, if they don't affect how they do the job and the employee is not doing anything to imply the company endorses the opinions.

Someone might have clients on their Facebook, or other business relations of their employer. If they were on it sounding off about p*kis and ch*nks and hating the queers, I don't think it would make a great difference to their employer if they were doing it before 9am and after 5pm or during the lunch break.

[Buelligan]

On a related note, any kind of stigma associated with attempting to remain anonymous on the internet should be crushed. Anyone who calls for everyone on Twitter to use their real name should be roundly condemned as a fool.

This is true and needs saying.  I work hard to preserve my privacy because I want and need to be alone, that's the truth.  The last time I was foolish enough to reveal myself, a stranger traveled across several countries to knock on the door, not through malice but still.  I did not answer.  People need their privacy.

And, on an impersonal note, anonymity is a leveler.  As soon as people bring their non-virtual sex or fame, money or power, or lack of it, into the conversation the old hierarchies revive their control.  And that's why there's pressure to sign up and sign in, google mail anyone, Youtube, Narcbook, so's the old power structures and controls can be maintained and strengthened.  I remember when the internet was all fields.

[Barry Admin]

It was actually wonderful, and I was thinking of it again just recently. I really love the written word and like this place not being plastered with embedded videos etc, and marvelled at the internet when it was all just about writing and reading. Which isn't to say I didn't spend 40 minutes lying in bed this morning watching video clips of "out of context cats", but yes, what stays with me is the way communication would occur without knowing diddly about the person you were talking to.

Then you'd pick up bits and pieces, and start figuring out it was a sort of person you'd never normally have talked to - perhaps never actually have listened to - because of certain cultural barriers or norms or whatever, but here they were, and they were fascinating, and it felt like everyone had more in common than you actually realised, and it was brilliant.

Then everyone started uploading pictures of themselves, and the whole thing got fucked sideways.

[Buelligan]

Yes indeed.  And, of course, anonymity does away with cancel culture at a stroke.  Returns the exchange of ideas to something more pure and free but less usable for targeted advertising.

Let's have an eye test.  Which is better...

this

or this?

[David Pielingtonburygrot]

Macys.

[bgmnts]

Macy's has better parking to be fair.

[Sin Agog]

The first picture also comes with prefab furniture.  I think some people know them as 'trees.'

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

It's probably their employer.

I'd say the employee's personal opinions and what they do outside of work are not the employer's business, if they don't affect how they do the job and the employee is not doing anything to imply the company endorses the opinions.

Well, this is the problem with posting your bigoted views or moonbat conspiracy theories on social media. It's there in writing for all the world to see, forever. If someone hears the janitor down the pub having a right old rant about "coming over here, taking our jobs and our dole", he's not necessarily recognisable (unless he's drinking in his work uniform with the name of the company emblazoned on the back). Plus, even if he is recognised, it's still one person's word against another and a company probably isn't going to give a shit what somebody said down the pub as long as the toilets are properly cleaned. But if the janitor writes that stuff on Facebook, next to his picture, and the name of his employer? Anybody can see that. It's there forever. That's why I don't name my employer on Facebook and confine my posts to holiday snaps and funny videos. You can't rely on privacy filters either, because they fail all the time.

People need to be more savvy about social media if they're using their real name. But some of them don't care, and more of them still don't think of the Internet as "real life".

[Zetetic]

You're not allowed to be naked in public spaces in the UK most of the time, rightly or wrongly.

Worth emphasising that this isn't a theoretical thing. If you try it then you get arrested and convicted of public order offences over and over and over again until you stop: Stephen Gough.

[popcorn]

Well here's Boris Johnson telling a nudist he "fully supports his right to be naked".

[Zetetic]

At Glastonbury Festival, apparently.

[Cuellar]

https://twitter.com/ConnorSouthard/status/1283063960338497536/photo/1

Signatory of THE LETTER Bari Weiss, hounded out (resigned from) the NYT, because other NYT journalists slagged her off on twitter and weren't 'met with appropriate action' for it.

Champion of free speech which should NEVER have professional consequences.

[Barry Admin]

Ha ha. Reminds me of something I saw that Shaun had said:

free speech is when i'm winning the argument, cancel culture is when i'm losing

[Buelligan]

Everything I know about Bari Weiss tells me that the world is far better off without her on the NYT's platform.  A really nasty piece of work, that one.

[Famous Mortimer]

Good riddance.

Also, the NYT saying they're committed to a wide range of voices in their opinion column. From Nazis at one end to middle-of-the-road Democrats on the other! The complete range of opinions!

[Barry Admin]

For those wanting a laugh, that Harper's piece, well, turns out some people were cancelled during production - they offered to sign but had votes on who should and shouldn't be included. CANCEL CULTURE AMIRITE.
Glenn Greenwald was going to be there but WAS CANCELLED
https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1284328426204274694

[Famous Mortimer]

I'd laugh if it weren't so fucking pathetic

[Cuellar]

Can't believe they no platformed Glenn Greenwald :(

[Pdine]

To be fair I think there's a huge difference between not wanting someone to sign your open letter and 'cancellation'. It is maybe more akin to 'no platforming', but even that connection is pretty tenuous.

[Cuellar]

It's an attack on freedom of expression

[Sebastian Cobb]

These days if you say you like a laugh you'll be arrested and thrown in jail.

[idunnosomename]

oh fuck off you miserable scots git