Author Topic: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"  (Read 9228 times)

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2020, 12:37:00 PM »
parler non?

Not even on twitter old hog.

BlodwynPig

  • The Last Living Member of COVID-20
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2020, 12:39:04 PM »
Not even on twitter old hog.

it wasn't an accusation.

We're hurtling through the rapids drinking arsenic and vinegar, I want to go back to Coal Mines, wobbly synths and Localised Fear

Pdine

  • Apparently I'm Jewish
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2020, 12:52:28 PM »
Isn't it part of free speech, that we're free to remember what's been said and act upon it?

Absolutely - I think the problem is where the thing you remember is not the thing that actually happened (as often happens with Chomsky and Faurisson). In turn I think that gets easier when there's a cluster of denunciations taking place; it's just hard for most people to keep track of what happens after the initial accusations.

Thomas

  • please describe an encounter with a squirrel
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2020, 12:55:20 PM »
From Another Angry Voice - examples of a 'cancel culture' that the right fail to care about:

Quote
The right keep banging on about "cancel culture" as if the powerful establishment elitists they adore don't have a long proven track record of cancelling people and things.

🔵 The British state "cancelled" James Connolly by tying him to a chair and shooting him to death because he fought for Irish liberation.

🔵 After WWII the British and Americans decided to "cancel" the main Greek anti-Nazi resistance organisation EAM because they were too left-wing, resulting in the "white terror" persecution campaign against the anti-Nazi freedom fighters, and the eventual instillation of the brutal Greek military dictatorships of the 1960s and '70s.

🔵 Between 1945 qnd 1975 the US government used the House Un-American Activities Committee to "cancel" the careers of thousands of people with left-wing views. The McCarthyite Witch Hunt didn't just ruin the careers of hundreds of actors and writers in Hollywood, it ruined the lives of vast numbers of ordinary people like teachers, academics, factory and construction workers too.

🔵 Similarly the BBC conspired with MI5 to "cancel" the careers of thousands of people with socialist and other left-leaning views, implementing a blacklist of left-wing actors, presenters, and writers that lasted well into the 1980s.

🔵 The British state "cancelled" the code-breaker and pioneering computer scientist Alan Turing by persecuting him for homosexuality to the extent of chemically castrating him.

🔵 The US Olympics Committee "cancelled" the careers of 200m gold medallist Tommie Smith and bronze medallist John Carlos for their black power salute at the 1968 Olympic Games. Smith had just broken the world record, and he was never allowed to run in a competitive race again! The Australian silver medallist Peter Norman was also "cancelled" by the Australian sporting authorities for showing solidarity with the Smith and Carlos protest.

🔵 For decades the British and American states have provided huge amounts of support to right-wing military dictatorships across the world (Cuba, Indonesia, Brazil, Greece, Chile, Cambodia, Honduras, Spain, Iran, Bolivia, Philippines, Portugal, Uruguay, El Salvador, Chad, Grenada ...) as they "cancelled" the lives of hundreds of thousands of left-wing people.

🔵 The US attempted to "cancel" the singing career of left-wing activist Paul Robeson by revoking his passport.

🔵 The US boxing authorities tried to "cancel" the career of Mohammed Ali by revoking his titles and withdrawing his boxing licence when he refused to participate in imperialist war-mongering in Vietnam.

🔵 The British state "cancelled" the Miami Show Band by installing a bomb on their tour bus, then machine gunning the band members when the bomb detonated prematurely. They also "cancelled" the lives of 26 unarmed civilians on Bloody Sunday in 1972.

🔵 The British and American governments supported Apartheid South Africa as they "cancelled" anti-Apartheid protesters with mass political imprisonment and outright murder (such as the letter bomb campaign that killed Ruth First).

🔵 With the help of the UK government, eight of the biggest UK construction firms maintained a secret blacklist of trade union activist workers, that lasted between 1983 and 2009. Hundreds of construction workers had their careers "cancelled", just for arguing in favour of better pay and safer working conditions.

🔵 In 2018 the Saudi regime "cancelled" the journalist Jamal Khashoggi by luring him to a Saudi embassy, murdering him, and dismembering his body. They've also "cancelled" thousands of civilian lives in Yemen with their campaign of war crimes, and genocidal starvation tactics. Britain and the United States continue arming this barbaric regime to the teeth, despite knowing perfectly well that the weapons they flog them are being used to commit war crimes.

🔵 The NFL clubs have conspired to "cancel" the American Football career of Colin Colin Kaepernick for his protests against anti-black racism and police brutality.

It's funny how the right don't give a damn about all the actual "cancel culture" that has, for decades, denied people their livelihoods, their liberty, their freedom of expression, and even their lives for their left-wing, anti-racist, and anti-imperialist beliefs ... yet they erupt into "cancel culture" outrage whenever one of their extreme-right ideologues gets their YouTube/Twitter account taken down for brazenly and repeatedly defying the community standards with racist hate speech, bigotry, bullying, promotion of genocide, and celebration of acts of extreme-right terrorism.

The right absolutely adore posturing as victims like this, because once you've inflated your audience's victim complexes to the size of hot air balloons, it only takes tiny puffs of right-wing ultranationalist rhetoric to get them all floating towards fascism.

Thus the latest extreme-right bigot to get themselves booted off social media becomes their latest cause célèbre, while the plight of the hundreds of thousands of people to have actually suffered brutal state persecution like political imprisonment, blacklisting, and death is completely ignored, because it simply doesn't fit their victimhood narrative.

Pdine

  • Apparently I'm Jewish
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2020, 01:00:41 PM »
From Another Angry Voice - examples of a 'cancel culture' that the right fail to care about:

Thing is, it's not just the Right complaining or being affected, is it? Chomsky's not right wing, and Al Franken isn't either. I think it's a bigger issue than that, really.

Thomas

  • please describe an encounter with a squirrel
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2020, 01:05:14 PM »
I know, I just thought it was interesting adjacent point.

Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2020, 01:20:38 PM »
Thing is, it's not just the Right complaining or being affected, is it? Chomsky's not right wing, and Al Franken isn't either. I think it's a bigger issue than that, really.

Are they complaining, or did they simply put their name to a vaguely worded letter because they agreed with the sentiment and/or their publicists thought it would look good?

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2020, 01:21:42 PM »
Absolutely - I think the problem is where the thing you remember is not the thing that actually happened (as often happens with Chomsky and Faurisson). In turn I think that gets easier when there's a cluster of denunciations taking place; it's just hard for most people to keep track of what happens after the initial accusations.

Obviously, but nothing perfect exists (or it would embarrass the gods).  Banning denouncement is a form of denouncement, the onus has to be on all of us, each of us, to treat others with egality and to be somewhat vigilant in what and who, we believe.  And that includes boycotting their products or meetings if they offend us, that is freedom too.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2020, 01:25:56 PM »
I know, I just thought it was interesting adjacent point.

It is a very interesting and relevant adjacent point.

Jumblegraws

  • Member
  • **
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2020, 01:31:06 PM »
If the signatories think there should be some sort of reform of contract law that makes it more difficult to dismiss people for being reputational liabilities because they said or published something controversial, and/or preventing publishers from limiting what people they contract with can write about, then they should say so and get more specific. As it stands, the letter fails to identify who exactly does the repressing, and the right pretty speech amounts to a bunch of people complaining about a bunch of people complaining. Whoever it was upthread who said that the letter has no more substance than Gal Gadot’s Imagine singalong pretty much nailed it.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

  • Le corpse garlique of Hercule Poirot
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2020, 01:32:26 PM »
Thing is, it's not just the Right complaining or being affected, is it? Chomsky's not right wing, and Al Franken isn't either. I think it's a bigger issue than that, really.

You'll forgive me for thinking that it's Quite Convenient we're only seeing this letter after black Americans finally had enough of everyone's shit and started burning things.

Also the UVF did the Miami Showband Massacre.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2020, 01:33:42 PM »
Also the UVF did the Miami Showband Massacre.

It's a bit more complicated than that, IMO.

Pdine

  • Apparently I'm Jewish
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2020, 01:35:09 PM »
I sometimes wonder about the widespread use of the word 'toxic' to describe opinions. It has implications of permanent damage and - for me anyway - there's a lack of certainty as to what exactly is being poisoned: is it the individuals who hear the opinions, or society in general? Either way, I think it is a metaphor with a bundle of associated imagery and assumed remedies that I find disquieting. As a society we act to irreversibly eradicate toxic ingredients and products because public health is important. I'm much less happy with the idea that a society should irreversibly eradicate opinions.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Words of Power for People who don't love words
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2020, 01:37:46 PM »
Should we eradicate the word toxic?  Is it toxic?  Or is it just another curated victim of bespoke ad-speak?

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

  • Le corpse garlique of Hercule Poirot
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2020, 01:39:29 PM »
It's a bit more complicated than that, IMO.
Well okay, four of them were also members of the UDR and there appears to have been RUC collusion but that doesn't mean the plot came from the British Government. I'm all for holding the Brits accountable for their various deeds but accuracy is important.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2020, 01:40:31 PM »
I think it's for another thread but I'd agree, accuracy is important.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

  • Le corpse garlique of Hercule Poirot
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2020, 01:42:30 PM »
I'm much less happy with the idea that a society should irreversibly eradicate opinions.
Yeah see this is where you lose me, because some opinions should be eradicated. Like "Vaccines cause autism". "The Jews are conspiring with the blacks to eradicate the White Race". "The Holocaust didn't happen". Opinions that are factually incorrect and can be proven so need to be shouted down.

Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2020, 01:42:52 PM »
Well okay, four of them were also members of the UDR and there appears to have been RUC collusion but that doesn't mean the plot came from the British Government. I'm all for holding the Brits accountable for their various deeds but accuracy is important.

Did the Brits not work closely with some insane psychopath mass murderer who was behind it, and do all they could to ensure nobody ever faced justice? The enquiry reached a certain level and then stopped when it started to implicate mi5? I know what I know from Wikipedia and a Netflix doc

Jumblegraws

  • Member
  • **
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2020, 01:43:55 PM »
I sometimes wonder about the widespread use of the word 'toxic' to describe opinions. It has implications of permanent damage and - for me anyway - there's a lack of certainty as to what exactly is being poisoned: is it the individuals who hear the opinions, or society in general? Either way, I think it is a metaphor with a bundle of associated imagery and assumed remedies that I find disquieting. As a society we act to irreversibly eradicate toxic ingredients and products because public health is important. I'm much less happy with the idea that a society should irreversibly eradicate opinions.
I just thought it was a loftier way of saying “shite”.

Pdine

  • Apparently I'm Jewish
Re: Words of Power for People who don't love words
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2020, 01:46:03 PM »
Should we eradicate the word toxic?  Is it toxic?  Or is it just another curated victim of bespoke ad-speak?

It's not so much the word as the set of tacit assumptions about society it seems to bring with it, or seeks to convey. There's loads of repetitively-used phrases that fuck me off - a few years ago everyone seemed to think it was cool to shoehorn Dijkstra's phrase x 'considered harmful' into every fucking slashdot post, and right now no Tweet seems to be complete without the meaningless lead-in 'Not for nothing but...' I think 'toxic' is a little different though, and its use is connected with the phenomenon the open letter is seeking to address.

Pdine

  • Apparently I'm Jewish
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2020, 01:50:51 PM »
Yeah see this is where you lose me, because some opinions should be eradicated. Like "Vaccines cause autism". "The Jews are conspiring with the blacks to eradicate the White Race". "The Holocaust didn't happen". Opinions that are factually incorrect and can be proven so need to be shouted down.

I'm completely in favour of the shouting, but not the placing of the opinion in a range of 'toxic' utterances. Let people say it, then explain why they are wrong, maybe while shouting. If you don't allow that to take place publicly, cunts will still continue to say it privately, and won't be subject to contradiction with facts. Indeed they get the added bonus of being able to pretend they are Copernican martyrs silenced for their clear-sightedness. So I'm all for shouting, but not censorship.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

  • Le corpse garlique of Hercule Poirot
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2020, 02:00:00 PM »
I'm completely in favour of the shouting, but not the placing of the opinion in a range of 'toxic' utterances. Let people say it, then explain why they are wrong, maybe while shouting. If you don't allow that to take place publicly, cunts will still continue to say it privately, and won't be subject to contradiction with facts. Indeed they get the added bonus of being able to pretend they are Copernican martyrs silenced for their clear-sightedness. So I'm all for shouting, but not censorship.
Yeah except allowing them to spew their stupid uneducated opinions all over social media and YouTube means they spread to impressionable kids and thick-brained adults who should know better. Are you aware of the damage the anti-vaxx movement has done? Measles is coming back because of it and Andrew Wakefield is still grifting away like a fucking asshole. He should be in an oubliette.

Barry Admin

  • Fuck your shit tea
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2020, 02:05:59 PM »
JK Rowling: We need to be able to discuss things openly
Child: I think I might be trans
JK Rowling: No. And the place where you can go and discuss it should be closed down.

JK Rowling: We need to be able to discuss things openly
Nicola Spurling: In recent years, Rowling has made it clear that she can no longer be trusted around children.
JK Rowling: Bitch I will sue you into a black hole in space unless you delete that.
JK Rowling: Now let's have a free and open debate about how awful "transgenderism" is: here's my essay (with the comments turned off) and I'm gonna promote it on Twitter (with the ability to reply turned off).

Cuellar

  • Taxes, they'll be lower...son
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2020, 02:09:11 PM »
Ha yeah, I saw that doing the rounds.

Zetetic

  • Worrying the carcass of an old song.
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2020, 02:12:42 PM »
Would quite like Dawkins to wade into this, lashing out at all and sundry.

Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2020, 02:17:11 PM »
I enjoy people defending this pigs' breakfast of an article complaining about people losing their jobs because of their opinions.

Dude, it's literally signed by shitheads who have got people fired for their public opinions, you turd gargling pusmonkey.

Some of the signers have recanted as well, that's a good sign it was all done in good faith, right?

Barry Admin

  • Fuck your shit tea
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2020, 02:22:49 PM »
Ha yeah, I saw that doing the rounds.

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,80113.msg4230933.html#msg4230933

Edit: it's only now looking back at that Darren Grimes tweet that I noticed the pic of Rowling is actually a 2 second video clip that links to his "Reasoned" website, and the whole reason he was "Standing with JK Rowling" was explicitly to advertise himself on a trending hashtag; promoting - of course - a video series where David Starkey used his "freedom of speech and thought" to rant about "so many damn blacks" while Grimes politely smiled and nodded.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 03:07:02 PM by Barry Admin »

Zetetic

  • Worrying the carcass of an old song.
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2020, 02:34:05 PM »
Would quite like Dawkins to wade into this, lashing out at all and sundry.

Unfortunately it turns out that the 79-year-old man is instead writing his 472nd book on religion, titled without any sense of irony, Outgrowing God.

Barry Admin

  • Fuck your shit tea
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2020, 02:53:59 PM »
ah, the leftist mob

https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1280671415478505472

Lest we forget:

The best part about the tea stuff is everybody's favourite idiot gifter making a tit of himself.





Stuart Braithwaite from Mogwai retweeted this with the comment 'my word'.


Cuellar

  • Taxes, they'll be lower...son
Re: "A Letter on Justice and Open Debate"
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2020, 02:55:36 PM »
HAhahahaa

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