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What is wrong with Iannucci

Started by pancreas, July 09, 2020, 05:15:49 PM

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pancreas

In which we pick at the scab of Iannucci's tragic and precipitous decline from comedy genius to centrist yeast infection.

This has come up on multiple CaB Zoom meets, and reared its head again in this thread.

The Iannucci Shows are astonishingly brilliant in their ambition, uniqueness and creativity. Every sketch is a perfection. On the Hour, The Day Today, Partridge, Thick of It, Veep. Death of Stalin. This is a list containing the very best of the very best.

And yet he decides to spend his time on Twitter uncritically parroting establishment narratives: the <0.1% of the Labour Membership being accused of antisemitism which makes it a hotbed of Jew-hate and that Corbyn by extension is a Nazi—this was the worst, of course, but not the only attack on the Left. It is not difficult to unpick these mad claims—no doubt Alexei Sayle could have put him right if he'd picked up the phone. So I posit he has been co-opted to work against the Left, either unwittingly or with his permission. Given the electoral system in this country, this is the same as working for the Right—about which he is either unaware or indifferent.

So the first tripartite question is: Is he, as a member of the establishment, afraid of the Left? Did he see the potential for the success of a left-wing Labour party a threat to himself? Or, has he merely made the decision to stand by his establishment friends, no doubt many of whom did not want their tax havens investigated?

He shows incredibly little self-awareness of his status of his politics. One can watch a frightful meeting of him with James O'Brien where they equate far-left with far-right politics by dint of distance from their own beliefs. (These beliefs are never examined in detail, merely being taken for granted as right and proper.) And then proceed to pat each other on the back for having made the right political decisions. There is a repellant lack of intellectual curiosity and rigour. A repellant lack of understanding of the interactions of establishment-friendly politics with the people it exploits. Recent interview: "Gathering towards a group who agree entirely with what you say... is going to lead to more and more extreme politics". (He should listen to Tariq Ali on 'Extreme Centrism'.)

He has no excuse for this. He has the brainpower, he knows the political shit and corruption that goes on, he appears to understand people reasonably well. He could do better if he tried.

Has he been corrupted, or was he always like this, in some fundamental way? Did he have this weakness built into him in the first place, for it to blossom as he got older, or has it been stuffed down his throat along with all the wads of BBC cash?

(Worth noting that this hasn't happened to Coogan.)

Alberon

He was responsible for Avenue 5 this year so he isn't even capable of making good shows anymore.

Famous Mortimer

This thread about him accepting the OBE is perhaps an interesting place to start.

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=32029.0

tribalfusion

Quote from: pancreas on July 09, 2020, 05:15:49 PM
In which we pick at the scab of Iannucci's tragic and precipitous decline from comedy genius to centrist yeast infection.

This has come up on multiple CaB Zoom meets, and reared its head again in this thread.

The Iannucci Shows are astonishingly brilliant in their ambition, uniqueness and creativity. Every sketch is a perfection. On the Hour, The Day Today, Partridge, Thick of It, Veep. Death of Stalin. This is a list containing the very best of the very best.

And yet he decides to spend his time on Twitter uncritically parroting establishment narratives: the <0.1% of the Labour Membership being accused of antisemitism which makes it a hotbed of Jew-hate and that Corbyn by extension is a Nazi—this was the worst, of course, but not the only attack on the Left. It is not difficult to unpick these mad claims—no doubt Alexei Sayle could have put him right if he'd picked up the phone. So I posit he has been co-opted to work against the Left, either unwittingly or with his permission. Given the electoral system in this country, this is the same as working for the Right—about which he is either unaware or indifferent.

So the first tripartite question is: Is he, as a member of the establishment, afraid of the Left? Did he see the potential for the success of a left-wing Labour party a threat to himself? Or, has he merely made the decision to stand by his establishment friends, no doubt many of whom did not want their tax havens investigated?

He shows incredibly little self-awareness of his status of his politics. One can watch a frightful meeting of him with James O'Brien where they equate far-left with far-right politics by dint of distance from their own beliefs. (These beliefs are never examined in detail, merely being taken for granted as right and proper.) And then proceed to pat each other on the back for having made the right political decisions. There is a repellant lack of intellectual curiosity and rigour. A repellant lack of understanding of the interactions of establishment-friendly politics with the people it exploits. Recent interview: "Gathering towards a group who agree entirely with what you say... is going to lead to more and more extreme politics". (He should listen to Tariq Ali on 'Extreme Centrism'.)

He has no excuse for this. He has the brainpower, he knows the political shit and corruption that goes on, he appears to understand people reasonably well. He could do better if he tried.

Has he been corrupted, or was he always like this, in some fundamental way? Did he have this weakness built into him in the first place, for it to blossom as he got older, or has it been stuffed down his throat along with all the wads of BBC cash?

(Worth noting that this hasn't happened to Coogan.)

Since it seems like I may have stirred this up, I thought I would chime in.  I think in the broadest of terms in the earlier part of his career, Armando could be construed as being on the soft left or a simply a liberal. Because of the state of affairs politically in society at large, his targets predominantly were further on the right or relatively innocuous. He never really struck me as someone with a thorough going critique of things, even at the time.

In the same way that the emergence of Sanders in the US provided important examples and opportunities virtually every day for a certain kind of liberal to claim respectability by firing left, the reemergence of popular left politics in Europe also provided ample opportunity for Armando to more fully display that which was always present in his thinking and tendencies. I think this is also the case of Richard Herring as well as others we could name.

I still think a survey of left/liberal tendencies in English language comedy should mention Armando but I don't think it's hard to see the continuity in the political contours of his humor from the early days up to now. Circumstances have simply forced certain conflicts out into the open.

I don't think brainpower is the main issue here. He's operating from within a system of ideological commitments.

Pink Gregory

Dear God the Death of Stalin was brilliant. 

tribalfusion

Quote from: Pink Gregory on July 09, 2020, 06:41:45 PM
Dear God the Death of Stalin was brilliant.


Hard disagree on that one. I found it quite weak and am waiting for his updated version entitled "the Death of Corbyn" which I am told is even closer to his heart.

BlodwynPig

yes, it was a pretty poor film, a modern caper of sorts, but with no satirical invective.

bgmnts

I thought the Death of Stalin was quite funny to be honest but Iannucci does seem like a proper gimp.

Lisa Jesusandmarychain

Threads with titles you can sing to that song by Le Tigre , that one from their debut album from 2000.

PlanktonSideburns

yea im with tribalfusion in thinking that he was a fucking funny bloke without much political edge, and now hes a slightly less funny bloke in a time when politics is even more fucked than it was in the 90s, and now everyone pours their every fucking thought onto social media platforms, where programs made by autistic millionaires manipulate posters very souls and turn people into twisted pantomime versions of them selves

i think thas what tribalfusion was on about anyway

DrGreggles

Supposedly a left wing comedian, yet accepted an OBE.

The cunt's like Ian Huntley to me.

ajsmith2

All would be forgiven if he would just star in a comedic Peter Molyneux biopic.

Thursday

I've wondered this with a lot of 90's comedy, I think we'd tend to see people who had what seemed to be anti-establishment attitudes and assumed the natural extension of this was that they'd have a left-wrong point of view. Now in retrospect, it feels like they were simply pointing at things, and saying "isn't this ridiculous!"

I'm not really sure myself, so I wonder how much we were just projecting our own values onto them.


I remember seeing Ian Hislop describe himself as a "small c conservative" massively paraphrasing a vague memory here, but his view was that satirists are people who are suspicious of change. It was bizarre thought to me, because I thought of them as people who see huge problems with the current systems, but increasingly it feels like many of them share Hislop's attitude.

PlanktonSideburns

Quote from: Thursday on July 09, 2020, 07:40:17 PM
I'd wondered this with a lot of 90's comedians, I think we'd tend to see people who had what seemed to be anti-establishment attitudes and assumed the natural extension of this was that they'd have a left-wrong point of view. Now in retrospect, it feels like they were simply pointing at things, and saying "isn't this ridiculous!"

I'm not really sure myself, so I wonder how much we were just projecting our own values onto them.

we used to think that this sort of transgression was enough to change the world, that making a whimsical show for the bbc basically made you a jedi

græskar

#14
I also agree with tribalfusion, it's probably just always been his position, but we now live in a hell world where we have to find out the political views of every public figure whether we want to or not since they won't shut up on twitter, so it's just become apparent.

Edit: I think it's also worth pointing out that there were at least two bits in On the Hour, off the top of my head, that in part mocked right-on politics (the "Thank God It's Satire-day" behind the scenes and the Labour council throwing old people out onto the streets at Christmas ("socialism isn't about everybody coming down, but about everybody going up, to a certain level, but to a level that isn't ridiculous")*. Although I don't know who wrote them.

*includes one of my favourite lines: "I'm not saying we're going to burn old people. I'm saying that old people MAY........ burn."

chveik

he probably always was some kind of centrist, but like many other celeb types, twitter has melted his brain irreparably.

Avenue 5 is absolute garbage, and I really dread to watch his David Copperfield.

PlanktonSideburns

the armando ianucci shows are brilliant, hillarious and moving musings on being middle class and sad, but their not exactly Industrial Society and Its Furure are they?

Retinend

What's the point of this thread? He isn't sufficiently left wing for you?
edit: Why is Coogan so much better? I'm so out of the loop

tribalfusion

Quote from: Thursday on July 09, 2020, 07:40:17 PM
I've wondered this with a lot of 90's comedy, I think we'd tend to see people who had what seemed to be anti-establishment attitudes and assumed the natural extension of this was that they'd have a left-wrong point of view. Now in retrospect, it feels like they were simply pointing at things, and saying "isn't this ridiculous!"

I'm not really sure myself, so I wonder how much we were just projecting our own values onto them.


Yep. It's also because you had fewer opportunities to actually SEE what their views were (fewer places to publish it or tweet it) and in a more politically impoverished environment with fewer widely visible challenges, mild critique could pass for much more than it was.

There were no major ideological challenges from a left with more cutting commentary outside of smaller academic or radical circles in the English speaking world such that some of these very soft left figures could gain some 'critical cachet' without having done much. Such people tend to especially resent being revealed as being toothless by figures further to their left less willing to accommodate and in Armando's case, this has been evident as well.


PlanktonSideburns

Quote from: Retinend on July 09, 2020, 08:06:44 PM
What's the point of this thread? He isn't sufficiently left wing for you?
edit: Why is Coogan so much better? I'm so out of the loop

just feels good

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: Retinend on July 09, 2020, 08:06:44 PM
What's the point of this thread? He isn't sufficiently left wing for you?
If he made funnier shows, I don't think we'd mind as much.

tribalfusion

Quote from: chveik on July 09, 2020, 07:48:17 PM
he probably always was some kind of centrist, but like many other celeb types, twitter has melted his brain irreparably.

Avenue 5 is absolute garbage, and I really dread to watch his David Copperfield.

Yes and he was what passed for center-left in a time when Blair and Clinton could still be mentioned in this context and people were writing breathless academic papers about the 3rd way and even people like Anthony Giddens were along for the ride. Tiwtter not only melted his brain by forcing him to see just how conventional he was, but it gave everyone else a lot of opportunities to see it play out in real time.


BlodwynPig

Quote from: tribalfusion on July 09, 2020, 08:07:37 PM

Yep. It's also because you had fewer opportunities to actually SEE what their views were (fewer places to publish it or tweet it) and in a more politically impoverished environment with fewer widely visible challenges, mild critique could pass for much more than it was.

There were no major ideological challenges from a left with more cutting commentary outside of smaller academic or radical circles in the English speaking world such that some of these very soft left figures could gain some 'critical cachet' without having done much. Such people tend to especially resent being revealed as being toothless by figures further to their left less willing to accommodate and in Armando's case, this has been evident as well.

cf. the early days of Have I Got News for You. "Tub of Lard" - revolutionary

Noodle Lizard

I think TTOI or Veep wouldn't have worked nearly as well if they hadn't been made from a "centrist" (or narratively neutral) standpoint, and they're probably a bit closer to nailing the truth of those kinds of people and scenarios as a result of that. That said, Iannucci has been a media darling for the best part of 30 years, and it wouldn't surprise me if he were shaped somewhat by those kinds of surroundings. Having to wear a tuxedo once a month or so. I can imagine not wanting to upset people in those classes too much, since they're the ones who might fund your next project in a roundabout way, and the "media elite" - somewhat like the political elites depicted in his shows - is comprised of people whose political opinions are so interchangeable and inauthentic that it's hard to even know where you stand.

I think this clip of him and Chris Morris accepting an award for On The Hour is a perfect demonstration of the difference in attitude between two types of people with similar levels of success: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTmthUNQSUs

Mango Chimes

#24
EDIT: Snark removed.

The premise of this thread is bad and unpleasant.

ColinPopshed

Quote from: PlanktonSideburns on July 09, 2020, 07:43:01 PM
we used to think that this sort of transgression was enough to change the world, that making a whimsical show for the bbc basically made you a jedi

Quote from: Thursday on July 09, 2020, 07:40:17 PM
I've wondered this with a lot of 90's comedy, I think we'd tend to see people who had what seemed to be anti-establishment attitudes and assumed the natural extension of this was that they'd have a left-wrong point of view. Now in retrospect, it feels like they were simply pointing at things, and saying "isn't this ridiculous!"

I'm not really sure myself, so I wonder how much we were just projecting our own values onto them.

I love both of these quotes. I spent the '90s going from 12yrs old to 22, and comedy and comedians had probably the biggest influence on me and my worldview. Looking back, this sums up so much of how I feel about a lot of it.

Noodle Lizard

Quote from: Thursday on July 09, 2020, 07:40:17 PM
I've wondered this with a lot of 90's comedy, I think we'd tend to see people who had what seemed to be anti-establishment attitudes and assumed the natural extension of this was that they'd have a left-wrong point of view. Now in retrospect, it feels like they were simply pointing at things, and saying "isn't this ridiculous!"

This might have something to do with the fact that within the past 10-15 years it's become far more common for everyday people to think they have the answers to anything political. You've always had people who seem to have strong opinions on one thing or another, but it used to be based almost entirely on experience. For example, a bloke in a pub might talk about how immigration is either beneficial/not beneficial because it does/doesn't help his industry in some way, or a person working with the homeless might have their opinions on what the government/people could do to help. Now, every cunt seems to have a loud, public and often completely unqualified take on almost any issue, often presuming that they understand the inner workings of Number 10 or the White House on a day-to-day basis. Trump was literally one of these cunts, and he's the fucking POTUS now.

Granted, I wasn't really sentient enough to remember how this kind of thing went in the 90s, but I'd imagine pointing at things and going "that's bollocks" was about as far as you could reasonably go without risking being outright wrong about something. People are less concerned with being wrong now, because something else will come along tomorrow for them to maybe be right about.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on July 09, 2020, 09:38:22 PM
This might have something to do with the fact that within the past 10-15 years it's become far more common for everyday people to think they have the answers to anything political. You've always had people who seem to have strong opinions on one thing or another, but it used to be based almost entirely on experience. For example, a bloke in a pub might talk about how immigration is either beneficial/not beneficial because it does/doesn't help his industry in some way, or a person working with the homeless might have their opinions on what the government/people could do to help. Now, every cunt seems to have a loud, public and often completely unqualified take on almost any issue, often presuming that they understand the inner workings of Number 10 or the White House on a day-to-day basis. Trump was literally one of these cunts, and he's the fucking POTUS now.

Granted, I wasn't really sentient enough to remember how this kind of thing went in the 90s, but I'd imagine pointing at things and going "that's bollocks" was about as far as you could reasonably go without risking being outright wrong about something. People are less concerned with being wrong now, because something else will come along tomorrow for them to maybe be right about.

Yup. It's all Hot takes. In the days where it would take a week to order a copy of the particular volume of the encyclopaedia from the library and the a further month of scouring the pages for the relevant information, there weren't many hot takes to be had.

Chriddof

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on July 09, 2020, 08:25:54 PM
I think this clip of him and Chris Morris accepting an award for On The Hour is a perfect demonstration of the difference in attitude between two types of people with similar levels of success: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTmthUNQSUs

I remember an interview with Morris from around the time of the launch of the Friday / Saturday Night Armistice, where Morris really laid into the show - my memory's quite vague as it's been ages since I saw it, but he seemed to give the impression that it was everything wrong with comedy at that point. There's also that other quote where he says that "you have to guard yourself against becoming friends with people" - in other words, getting caught up in the aforementioned media bubble where Iannucci's been for around 25 years. (See also his more recent quotes on Twitter.)