Are you entrepreneurial?

[Jockice]

Have I understood this correctly? Your friend's new boyfriend spoke to you to say "hello, Jockice, you are not to speak to my new girlfriend's - your longer-standing friend's - former husband"? Or was it that he spoke to her to tell her that you weren't allowed to? Horrific and unpleasant in either case, of course, but slightly more mental if he'd actually revealed his abusive behaviour to you.

Well, sort of. But here's the case for the defence. It was long before I was aware of his abusive behaviour. As far as I knew he was a charming man who had swept ****** off her feet. He actually came over as a real charmer.  And ****** was with him on a night out when he told us (not just me) that we couldn't possibly be friends with her ex because he was spying on the happy couple's Facebook pages and causing trouble. It sounded plausible. In fact her brothers fell for it too. And they are now both friends with him again. Although  ****** and one of the brothers aren't talking now. Bloody families.

Her first marriage had seemed okay from the outside but obviously wasn't on the inside otherwise they wouldn't have split up - although it lasted a hell of a lot longer than her second and they have two kids - now young adults - from it. But since ****** seemed to agree that her ex was being a bastard and we shouldn't have anything to do with him, we went along with it. I don't have much to do with the ex anyway after the split. He lives fairly near to me and I'd bumped into him in the shops a couple of time and we'd said we'll have to go for a drink someday but it never happened. So it was presented by the second husband as a choice between ditching the first one or falling out with someone I'd known since our teens.

They're bloody good at emotional manipulation these emotional manipulator types you know. It's the one and only time in my adult life I've let someone else dictate who I can be friends with. And I can guarantee it'll never happen again.

New page would you like to buy London Bridge off me? I do own it, honest.

[Ferris]

I paid $60 to register a business name.

Always wanted to do this so I could get business cards proclaiming me the CEO of Monster Knobs, Inc.

[Voltan (Man of Steel)]

New page would you like to buy London Bridge off me? I do own it, honest.

As it happens I am looking for a bridge (but I'm no mug so please don't treat me as one). How much are you looking for? I assume buyer collects.

[Jockice]

As it happens I am looking for a bridge (but I'm no mug so please don't treat me as one). How much are you looking for? I assume buyer collects.

It'll cost your entire life savings. But it's a bargain.

[Voltan (Man of Steel)]

£85 for a bridge is indeed a bargain. Email me your account details and I'll transfer the money right now.

[Jockice]

£85 for a bridge is indeed a bargain. Email me your account details and I'll transfer the money right now.

I'm afraid there's been a bit of a mix-up and I've just this minute sold it to another bidder. Sorry.

[Voltan (Man of Steel)]

Fair enough. I'm sure I'll find something else to invest my savings in. Somebody told me the next big thing is going to be diesel-powered personal airships. Going to be bigger than the Sinclair C5 and Segway combined apparently.

[JaDanketies]

I've been self-employed here and there. In my 20s it was just like people took advantage of me, and I let them because I didn't think I had the experience to ask for more. Now I'm in my 30s, I became self-employed not too long ago and it's been the best decision I ever made.

I love the hustle part of it, and being my own boss, working my own hours, answering to nobody other than the biggest pain-in-the-arse clients, who I can even stop working with if I decide to.

I still do pretty much 100% of the work I earn money for, though, and I suppose part of being an entrepreneur is getting someone else to do the hard work and you earning money off their labour.

[Ray Travez]

I quite like buying and selling stuff on eBay. There's a bit of fun and a thrill to be had selling something and watching the bidding go up at the end of the auction. I can see the the wider appeal but you need a lot of energy to want to make a living doing it.

I enjoy it too, but I know what you mean about the energy. There's times I just can't pull it together to list stuff, go through the whole procedure. Margins are generally pretty low on the stuff I sell, then every thirty or so auctions I'll fluke a decent return.

Quite like finding stuff at car boots and sometimes in skips and, I believe the terminology is, 'flipping it'. Sold a mobility scooter blanket last week to a guy, he was really pleased with the purchase; that sort of thing gives me satisfaction. (PARKLIFE!) Today I've just got three things to post; a CD, a book about DMT and a mirrored banana ornament. I like the variety of it.

I'm not sure I'm an entrepreneur, but I like providing a service. Might be considered a 'bottom-feeder', though I think the term is inelegant. There's some skill to finding and selling stuff, and a lot of graft.

[Cuellar]

All Jeff Bezos had was a $300,000 gift from his mum and dad to get started. Makes me think anyone can do it.

Looked this up and this, regarding the naming of Amazon, made me laugh:

Bezos initially named his new company Cadabra but later changed the name to Amazon after the Amazon River in South America, in part because the name begins with the letter A, which is at the beginning of the alphabet.

Ahh, A is at the beginning of the alphabet is it? Fascinating.

[markburgle]

Looked this up and this, regarding the naming of Amazon, made me laugh:

Ahh, A is at the beginning of the alphabet is it? Fascinating.

Doesnt Alan Partride get into bed with a company called Aardvark or something, because he's impressed by such a flagrant attempt at alphabetical firsties?

I did the "I could do this myself, cut out the middle man" thing and started my own property inventory company. But it was a move borne out of slight desperation - restless vague ambition that had no focus.

I spent a depressingly long time designing my own website, logo, doc templates etc, only to realise after launching it that I was just digging deeper into an industry I didn't care about. I did earn twice as much money per job, but each job was twice as much work.

I let it tick over for a bit, then did some figures and realised my net earnings over a year were zero. It was a lovely feeling to shut it down. 

But that was very low stress, no overheads to speak of. I had other work so was still surviving. Probably lost about a grand on it.

[Colin Sanction]

I'm absolutely fascinated by multi-level marketing/pyramid schemes though.

Have you listened to The Dream Podcast? Season 1 deals with MLM's.

One of the posts is how about her and her husband missed out on buying their dream home but every cloud has a silver lining and it must mean that something better is on the horizon. After going through her page I called up a warning website about MLMs and apparently this is quite a common one and they're trained to do the 'missing out on the dream home' bit. In fact a former workmate's wife works for another cosmetics firm and is also apparently incredibly successful but also apparently missed out on buying her dream home recently. Double hmm.

I've Googled this but I'm not coming up with any relevant results. Can you elaborate on the missing out script?

[TrenterPercenter]

My cousin is just in the process of liquidating his once very successful business (large athletic event technology biz) due to the pandemic (they just can't get the bookings despite them working on quite viable solutions for how to operate with social distancing).  Built it up from scratch for the last 5-6 years.  Has gone the last 3 months forgoing any pay himself just to keep his staff paid, and appears genuinely more upset about having to make them unemployed than anything else.

His dad is a Tory voting, Brexit supporting arsehole who delights in posting his Thatcherite survival of the fittest thoughts on Facebook.  Just found out my cousin, as he hasn't been making a wage, borrowed some money from his old man (and mum who is just as bad) who is now charging him interest and claiming to own the part of the caravan he bought with the money (yeah in my world i'd be like why if you are broke are buying a caravan - but he looks after 3 kids and I think he thought this was a way of getting cheap holidays that would pay back themselves).  Tory uncle is very well off 'entrepreneur' btw making his money quite typically from the property boom and now has a holiday home out of the country so there is absolutely no need to charge his son interest.

Have already offered to have a word with uncle next family do (which would suit me fine).

[Jockice]

Have you listened to The Dream Podcast? Season 1 deals with MLM's.

I've Googled this but I'm not coming up with any relevant results. Can you elaborate on the missing out script?

Nope. But I will.

i can't find the link I saw the house scam on but there was a piece on someone 'missing out on their dream home' with a picture of it to which someone had pointed out that this particular house was not for sale but you could rent apartments in it if you really wanted. I'd also like to add that I have no real proof that they are trained to do this except two people I know on Facebook have both recently 'missed out on dream homes' and they work for different MLMs. Might not stand up in court but it strikes me as very suspicious. Neither of them posted pictures of these 'dream homes' they'd apparently missed out on though. I wonder why not?

[JesusAndYourBush]

Jimi Hendrix first drafts...

[Colin Sanction]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/textbased/femail/text-8526647/Promise-luxury-lifestyle-turn-nightmare-mounting-debt-marriages-threat.html

The ugly side of beauty: Thousands of women are trying to make extra money by flogging brands like The Body Shop from home. But, as these stories show, the promise of a luxury lifestyle can turn into a nightmare of mounting debt, lost friends – and marriages under threat

As a sales rep for health and skincare brand Forever Living, Catherine Thornley rhapsodised on Facebook about her role.

Her business had paid for expensive shopping trips. Her complexion was glowing thanks to the company's latest wonder cream. Flexible working gave her time to enjoy her two children.

Alongside her effusive words, she posted pictures suggesting an enviable lifestyle her friends would be mad not to want to emulate. If it were all true, that is. In fact, Catherine, 52, had become so obsessed with flogging Forever Living that she was lying about how much she was earning, her 20-year marriage was falling apart and she'd fallen out with friends sick of being used.

Worse, she was paying hundreds of pounds of her own money into the company to meet the minimum threshold of earnings she needed to keep her business afloat. 'I was brainwashed,' says Catherine. During three years working full-time for Forever Living — rising to become a manager with a team of 100 beneath her — she earned a total of only £5,000. 'Thinking about it now brings me to tears. I kept believing the payment would eventually be bigger than my outgoings.'

Women who claim they've been exploited by Multi-Level Marketing companies reflected on their experiences. Pictured: Clare Matthew, 42, who worked for The Body Shop At Home

Forever Living is one of a number of Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) companies facing criticism from some women who feel they have been exploited. Others include Arbonne, Ariix, even The Body Shop. The once High-Street favourite now also sells its beauty products via sales reps on social media — you may well have seen them on Facebook.

They may even have become more frequent in recent weeks — since some MLM companies are reportedly using the pandemic to recruit sellers by offering flexible hours and work from home. Their targets are predominantly women, often with young families.

The Direct Selling Association (DSA) estimates roughly 400,000 people in the UK are currently involved in direct selling in some way — around 76 per cent women.

Certainly the largely online business model has proved convenient during shop closures. The Body Shop saw 'direct sales' in the UK soar in the Covid-19 outbreak, rising to 30 per cent of revenues from 20 per cent previously.

MLM firms have a complex structure in which existing sales reps are encouraged, not just to sell the company's product, but to recruit more people under them. For every rung of the ladder people climb, they get paid a higher percentage of sales profits. The person who recruits you is called your 'upline'; your recruit is your 'downline'.

Frequently, admits Catherine, women are recruited with lies: 'I'd say I was making £1,500 a month, when I was lucky to be earning £500. I felt bad, but I was told by my upline to "fake it till you make it".'

A recent study found 99 per cent of people who participate in MLM companies lose money. Pictured: Suki Pickering, 49, who worked for Arbonne

Last month, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission sent warning letters to six MLM companies, saying representatives had falsely claimed products could treat or prevent coronavirus — and buying into the business could replace lost earnings from the lockdown.

So why such eagerness to recruit new sellers? Experts suspect some MLM companies are comparable to pyramid schemes — illegal businesses that make money by persuading more and more people to buy into their system, rather than through the sale of legitimate products or services.

While this is vehemently denied by the MLM companies who responded to the Mail's request for comment, the fact remains: people who participate in these organisations risk either making no money, or losing money.

It was like a cult. I maxed out my credit card. I was desperate and in tears
A 2018 study found 47 per cent of participants lose money, while 2011 research for the US Federal Trade Commission found 99 per cent would lose money.

Those at the very top fare better — Forever Living's founder Rex Maughan, 83, has an estimated net worth of around £477 million.

It was the promise of more modest riches that lured Catherine, from Glasgow, who is married to Thomas, 55, an academic, with daughters aged 23 and 18. She was recruited to Forever Living in 2013 by a friend, while struggling as an actress. 'She said I would quickly be able to earn up to £2,000 a month,' she recalls.

Forever Living sells products made from aloe vera, with popular lines including a £34 serum and £54 supplements. As with many MLMs, there is a start-up fee to join.

MLM companies who responded to the Mail's request for comment denied that they are comparable to illegal pyramid schemes. Pictured: Victoria Cannon, 39, who worked for Stella & Dot

In Catherine's case, this comprised £200 for a 'starter kit' of products. Although in debt at the time, she spent money she 'didn't have' for the kit, believing it could change her life and help her pay back her loans. She was told to make a list of 100 people she knew to sell to or recruit. 'I called people I hadn't bothered to speak to for 20 years,' says Catherine. 'They'd be pleased, then once they realised why I was calling they'd avoid me. It destroyed my confidence.'

She was told by her 'upline' to create three social media posts per day — 'a "lifestyle" post showing something my business had paid for, a "business" post about how much I loved a Forever Living product, and a "feel good" post,' explains Catherine. 'Friends ignored my posts or, if I approached them, quickly said "no thanks". But I was so determined I started to think they were the fools for not being interested.

Victoria said it was difficult to sell Stella & Dot products (pictured) because of the price

'I was told to target women with prams, as they'd be likely to want flexible working. Everything became a business opportunity — in coffee shops, I'd ask my husband if women looked like "Forever Living people" I should approach.'

At first, Catherine succeeded by being ruthless: 'I didn't stop to think whether joining would be good for recruits. We were told not to waste time on people who couldn't sell once we'd signed them up — we let them flounder.'

Forever Living conventions, in which success stories were paraded and prizes handed to top sellers, cemented her resolve. 'The top salespeople were waving cheques for £5 million,' says Catherine. 'I thought I was going to be a millionaire.'

Catherine Thornley, 52, was promoted to manager level after persuading her recruits to sell £20,000 worth of Forever Living products in a two-month period. Pictured: Forever Living Founder, Rex Maughan

After a year with Forever Living, Catherine had persuaded her recruits to enlist dozens more until she had 100 people beneath her, selling £20,000 worth of products in a two-month period.

She was promoted to manager level, her commission rising from 38 to 48 per cent. But the pressure was immense — if she didn't keep selling at that rate, she'd lose her commission. 'The people I'd recruited weren't selling enough. Cracks started to show. My business was going to crumble.'

So she started spending hundreds of pounds on products to meet the minimum monthly threshold. 'I had to keep face. I didn't tell my husband. We had separate bank accounts.'

Guilt consumed Catherine, who believes most women she recruited didn't have the mentality to succeed and could ill afford the £200 starter kit. 'I'd look for vulnerability,' she says.

The lady who signed me up had bought a Range Rover. I paid £120 to join – but only made £12 - Victoria Cannon
In 2016, Thomas told her he was fed up with the way Forever Living had changed her, and wanted out of the marriage if she didn't quit. 'I realised I'd ruined my family life — the whole reason I'd signed up in the first place.' The £20,000 debt she'd hoped to pay off was also untouched, although she has since paid it off completely.

So she left Forever Living to save her marriage. She says most reps she knew blocked her on social media, and has since apologised to those she left to flounder. 'A tiny minority do well,' she says. 'But at the bottom a lot of people are not being paid for their work.'

So what's the difference between a pyramid scheme and a MLM? 'It is a fine line,' says marketing strategist Lyanna Tsakiris. 'Both multi-level marketing and pyramid schemes depend on continuous recruitment, but a pyramid scheme offers a non-existent or worthless product, while MLM is at least selling something, often beauty or health products.'

Clare Matthew who lives in Colchester, Essex, said she spent £600 on merchandise while working for The Body Shop At Home (pictured), but earned only £80 back

Some MLMs, however, encourage sales reps to spend upfront on expensive products they're unable to sell. Clare Matthew's unsold Body Shop products clutter the dressing table of her bedroom in Colchester, Essex.

In the year she worked for The Body Shop At Home — the direct-selling arm of The Body Shop — the married mum of two spent £600 on merchandise, earning only around £80 back and paying off the rest on her credit card. 'I was stupid and was sucked in,' says Clare, 42, now an administrator for a building company.

Recruited in October 2018, Clare spent £49 on a starter kit. But she says the only selling party she threw was a flop that led to fractured friendships. 'I invited 20 people, but only two friends showed up,' says Claire.

On Facebook, she and other Body Shop 'consultants' would rave about products to drum up business. 'It was a con really,' says Clare, married to Rob, 39, a civil servant. 'And because there were so many of us it was hard to sell anything.' Clare says if she did place an order — for 25 per cent commission — she'd be urged to spend more on products: 'If I spent £70, for example, Body Shop would offer me a £15 hand cream for £10. So I ended up with lots of products I couldn't sell.'

A spokesperson says The Body Shop At Home 'offers a flexible opportunity to earn from the sales of products, as well as building a team of recruits to allow for more widespread sales growth opportunity, if they choose.'

Olivia Thompson, 38, from London, spent £1,400 on wellness products from high-end US MLM Ariix. Pictured: Forever Living products

The company added: 'The Body Shop At Home is far from the illegal operation of a pyramid scheme, which typically focuses on sales of products or services with no independent value, and only encourages profit through recruitment.'

Teacher Olivia Thompson, 38, was also left out of pocket when she spent £1,400 on wellness products from high-end US MLM Ariix, after being told buying in bulk would mean better profits. In six months, she clawed back only £700.

'I have a First Class degree — I'm not stupid,' says Olivia, a single parent from London. 'But I was sold a dream and ended up feeling like a joke.'

Ariix, with its £110 night cream and £66 supplements, stood out as 'classy,' says Olivia, who spent £200 on a starter package in 2018.

She too was told by her upline to flood social media with Ariix-related messages. 'I said I'd cured my hangover with their vitamin drink, but I wasn't telling the truth,' she says. 'It was like a cult.' Ariix operates on a points system, under which reps have to earn 100 points a month — the equivalent of about £100 — to earn 15 per cent commission. 'If I didn't sell enough I got no commission,' says Olivia.

Over three months, she spent £1,200 on more products, maxing out her credit card. She told herself it was worth it to gain an increase to 25 per cent. 'My upline said she couldn't tell me to spend the money — but that if she were me she would, and I would quickly make it back.'

Suki Pickering, 49, who worked for Arbonne between 2013 and 2015, claims the only way to make money was by recruiting others. Pictured: Arbonne products

Instead, Olivia alienated friends and family. 'My sister said MLMs were "evil". I felt judged by school friends — we still don't speak.'

She felt increasingly despondent: 'I was desperate and in tears.'

She recruited just one woman before quitting in December 2018. 'I got into at least £700 of debt and would have been much better off getting another job,' says Olivia.

Ariix says average annual earnings for all its 43,945 global sellers are £1,616 — but for full-time workers, it is £228,655. They claim there is no obligation to buy a starter pack. A spokesperson says they 'discourage "product loading" in an attempt to increase commission.' 'We are very conscientious in our training that product purchase is not a requirement,' the company said, adding that it is 'unable to control the actions of every single one of our reps'.

It added, 'We regret this individual did not receive the support and follow-up from her team member,' but denied Ariix was comparable to a pyramid scheme, adding: 'Network Marketing or "MLM" is based on the sale of high-quality products to consumers.'

Olivia, however, ended up throwing unsold Ariix products away.

Although MLMs insist the emphasis is on sales — rather than recruitment — this wasn't Suki Pickering's experience of beauty company Arbonne. 'The only way to make money and be successful was by recruiting,' believes Suki, 49, who worked for the company between 2013 and 2015.

Suki (pictured) from Warlingham, Surrey, estimates that she spent over £1,500 while working for Arbonne

A digital analyst with an 11-year-old son, she hoped to earn money for retirement. Arbonne claims its most successful consultants earn an average of £212,000 a year.

Suki, from Warlingham, Surrey, spent £54 to become a consultant, and a further £850 on suggested products and samples in a year. In total, she estimates she spent over £1,500. 'I lost all the money.'

She only managed to recruit one consultant. 'In hindsight I pressured her into it — she didn't sell anything,' says Suki, who spent two hours every evening trying to build up her business.

She left in July 2015 and sold her remaining stock, at half price, on eBay. A spokesperson for Arbonne says consultants can join for £30, that there is an annual renewal of £25 and that 'no additional purchases or inventory are ever required.' Arbonne says all consultants earn 35 per cent commission on products.

A spokesperson added: 'It is not easy to make money. It takes time, hustle and commitment, just as it does to start any type of business. The vast majority of our consultants report positive experiences, and this often gets overlooked.'

Victoria Cannon, 39, (pictured) from Bedford, who worked for Stella & Dot, revealed she earned just £12 in commission for hours of work

But Victoria Cannon, 39, had a far from positive experience when she worked for high-end jewellery MLM Stella & Dot. Married to James, 38, and mum to Grace, 13 months, she paid £120 to become a 'stylist' for the brand in 2017.

'The lady who signed me up had bought a Range Rover,' says Victoria, from Bedford. She set up a Facebook page to sell and was told to throw 'trunk shows', a sale via Facebook for groups of friends.

But even when a friend hosted a selling party, nobody bought anything. 'It was like pulling teeth.'

She says part of the problem was the price — £85 for a necklace and £48 for earrings. In a year, she sold one ring to one friend, a necklace to another, and three items to her mum — 'I think she felt sorry for me.' In total she earned just £12 in commission for hours of work.

But despite her failure with Stella & Dot — which ceased trading in the UK last year because of 'challenging market conditions' — Victoria has moved to another MLM, this time selling perfume and claiming she has earned £100 a month in six months with the company. 'This one is reputable. There's no pressure. I get commission on the sales of the women I've recruited and I only work 90 minutes a day,' she says.

These words, well intentioned as they might be, sound all too worryingly familiar.

*Stella & Dot and Forever Living did not respond to requests for comment. Catherine and Olivia's names have been changed to protect their identity.

[Jockice]

Yes, one of the apparently incredibly successful women I've mentioned works for the Body Shop. The other is a Younique type.