Author Topic: Star Trek: Lower Decks  (Read 10389 times)

Small Man Big Horse

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2020, 02:18:03 PM »
Get fucked you Neelix apologist I will end you


(Sorry, I react badly to people not hating Neelix)

I completely understand your reaction and would have posted the same thing. But amazingly, even though Neelix is a horrendous character, somehow Mariner is actually worse. Words which I once thought to be impossible, too, but it does turn out to be the case.


Malcy

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2020, 02:38:34 PM »
I completely understand your reaction and would have posted the same thing. But amazingly, even though Neelix is a horrendous character, somehow Mariner is actually worse. Words which I once thought to be impossible, too, but it does turn out to be the case.



Neelix was probably never the lowest on my list but since Picard & DSC came along he's far far from the bottom!

idunnosomename

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2020, 02:44:24 PM »
im glad that in 2020 we are progressive enough to have a black female lead in a star trek cartoon who is also SA-SAAAAY!!!! YEAH BEE-OTCH!!!!!!

Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2020, 02:52:26 PM »
When Netflix got Star Trek they should have renamed it Neelix for the day.

Malcy

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2020, 03:16:58 PM »
Just remembered something else that stuck out. One of the crew had a LaForge style VISOR. Are the ocular implants like Geordie got only given out to high ranking crew?! Maybe if Pike had made Admiral he would have got a better wheelchair...

Mariners rant at the end was a bit ridiculous. It was like they decided to throw a load of rapid fire references in incase any Trek fans who hated it would get some satisfaction from it.

Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2020, 04:11:42 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr4bomaqMTE



Not the best looking ship, seems a little unbalanced with the high saucer vs low nacelles/engineering, doesn't hang together. It's no Miranda class, but at least it's not as lardy as the Nebula class.

You take that back about the Nebula class. She is a compact and beautiful design.

Blumf

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2020, 05:10:43 PM »
You take that back about the Nebula class. She is a compact and beautiful design.

USS MR. CREOSOTE

Wonderful Butternut

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2020, 08:38:56 PM »
Yeah, I think that was shit.

Star Trek 'feel' was entirely down to it being set on a starship, dig below that and it has as much to do with Star Trek is it does with the works of Giraldus Cambrensis. It also wasn't funny and for the most part consisted of obnoxious shits shouting at each other for 26 minutes.

Since Mariner was demoted and has already nailed her 'my morals are superior to Starfleet regs' colours to the mast, I don't think there's much chance that she'll cop on and realise her behaviour is childish and dangerous. It's more likely that the captain (Her Mom?) and senior staff will come around to her way of thinking.

Speaking of whom, they make Admiral Sheer Fucking Hubris from Picard look reasonable.

And I know this is probably invalid criticism for a 'comedy' but the main characters are considered such plebs that they have their bunks in an actual corridor? I know it's established in The Undiscovered Country and Voyager that crewmen have to share quarters, (even though Starfleet ships except for the Defiant are huge for the number of people on them), but a corridor? Why not just nail them to crosses instead to show how unfair their life is? Or is that not funny enough? And these people are actually officers, btw, albeit unimportant ones. Where do non-comms sleep on that ship? In the anti-matter storage tanks?

"Senior Staff are filled with hubris and care nothing about most people on the ship" isn't even really a theme outside TNG

It's not even a theme in TNG that I can recall outside of the 'Lower Decks' episode and maybe that time Riker pulled the head off Barclay. Who in fairness at that time was constantly fucking late for work cos he was jacking off in the holodeck.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 09:05:16 PM by Wonderful Butternut »

Famous Mortimer

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2020, 02:44:05 PM »
https://www.theringer.com/tv/2020/8/6/21357421/star-trek-lower-decks-picard-television-expansion

I normally respect the Ringer, but this feels like it was written by someone who is desperate to keep on the good side of someone at CBS All Access. It's full of things that...let's just say I would not agree with, were I in a position of power over Star Trek.

Quote
“I just think that there are some key elements that you can’t break about Trek,” Kurtzman says. “Ultimately it has to reinforce [Gene] Roddenberry’s essential vision of an optimistic future.” Kurtzman also insists that “every episode actually has to be a great Star Trek episode. It can’t just be a lot of jokes.”

Ensuring that the humor of Lower Decks comes from a place of affection for Trek, as opposed to “punching down” at its ideals, was the Prime Directive for its creator, who cites spiritual predecessor Galaxy Quest as the template for a loving send-up of Trek tropes. “If you went into it trying to poke holes or find reasons that the Federation wouldn’t be good, you could do that. But then it’s not Star Trek anymore,” he says. He also steered his writers away from an idea for a plot line in which Kirk pilots a space Uber, which might have been funny but wouldn’t have been true to Trek. The show he envisioned—and, through the four episodes provided to critics, largely succeeded in creating—is “just one step away from being a classic, dramatic Star Trek show without taking the air out of the tires of what makes Star Trek, Star Trek.”

I feel like "Discovery" is different to what Kurtzman is saying he wants to do with Star Trek, and while I'm not opposed to a comedy set in the Star Trek world, I'm not sure why people are so determined to make different things out of it. Would "a serious sci-fi series set in the same universe as Friends" get much traction? It feels like only sci-fi gets this treatment. Also, they make a reference to them doing a TOS-style show where each episode will be largely stand-alone, as if it's this grand experiment in TV. Shows like TNG invented whole new worlds and conflicts and wrapped them up in 42 minutes, and some of them are marvels of writing. I like standalone episodes! Why not do more of them! Also also, they're going to do a Section 31 show with Michelle Yeoh in it, which will be all dark and shit, apparently. There were a few good Section 31 novels, which I'm sure the show will be nothing at all like.

I know most of you already have, but the new Red Letter Media episode on TNG really crystallised a bunch of thoughts I've been having about it, but in a much more coherent way. The little section where Mike lists the different sorts of TNG episodes, then lists the different sorts of Discovery episodes, is perfect.

Re: the quote from Lemming and reply from Wonderful Butternut, I've been watching old TNG episodes thanks to the Pluto.TV app on the Roku. They just had "Neutral Zone", at the end of season 1, and the financier guy wonders what's going to happen when he goes back to Earth and, thanks to the post-scarcity economy, there's no-one left to exploit. Picard says the challenge now is to improve yourself, and I always really liked that response. The people in Star Trek have been raised and educated in a completely different world, so while they're human beings with the same drives and urges, they know as an absolute fact that there's no need to accumulate wealth or steal X or Y, or fuck over their fellow officer for a promotion. I've seen dozens of moments where the various captains have agonized over the deaths of their crew, so I just don't understand that criticism (which you both disagree with too, just adding my voice).
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 03:03:27 PM by Famous Mortimer »

Alberon

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2020, 03:53:43 PM »
I think I’ve got about halfway through the first episode by now, but I’m throwing in the towel. I have no problem with animation or comedy though the way this show goes about it is terrible. It has one emotional level - of a hyperactive toddler - but the critical problem is that it just isn’t funny.

The interviews hint at a bit more drama down the line, but I don’t care. This is superficial fuckery made by people who think they know Trek, but don’t.

Wonderful Butternut

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2020, 05:52:05 PM »
Also also, they're going to do a Section 31 show with Michelle Yeoh in it, which will be all dark and shit, apparently. There were a few good Section 31 novels, which I'm sure the show will be nothing at all like.

I think they've put that one on ice for a while. Either they want to keep Yeoh in Discovery or they realised what a monumentally bad idea a grimdark Section 31 series is. Mirror Georgiou is an absolute waste of screen time and Yeoh's acting talents no matter which series she's in anyway. I'm so pissed they discarded the potentially good Prime Georgiou after one episode.

In the quote you have from Kurtzmann, he goes on about reinforcing the essential vision of an optimistic future. Eh... yeah Alex matey... Disco didn't do that. Even a little bit. And Picard was properly fucking miserable until the shallow positive ending. Ep 1 of Lower Decks arguably was better in that respect, but only because it's light-hearted and inconsequential. I'd still consider the senior / junior officer divide that was never really a thing before somewhat at odds with Roddenberry's optimistic vision. The level of lip-service that they're coming out with that isn't backed up by what's on the sodding screen is pissing me off.

Guess we're down to hoping that Strange New Worlds will provide the traditional and optimistic Star Trek experience.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 06:27:51 PM by Wonderful Butternut »

Lemming

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2020, 10:49:51 PM »
Jesus that line about the "joke" with Kirk driving an Uber is raw pure desolation. The writing team came up with a joke so shit that even Alex Kurtzman couldn't take it. That's a terrible sign.

I wouldn't trust anything Kurtzman says because he'll literally say anything. "It's important to keep an optimistic future alive and be respectful to the established setting," he says as he oversees Discovery and Picard. Won't even be surprised at this point if Strange New Worlds is a 10-part serialised grimdark nightmare about Pike getting his face blown off.

Is there any indication as to how well these shows are doing? My obsessive polling of my friends, Star Trek fans and non-Trek fans alike, suggest that nobody really gives a shit about any of these series, but they must be making substantial amounts of cash if CBS/Amazon are continuing to shit them out at this rate.

beanheadmcginty

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2020, 10:53:07 PM »
How and why has Kurtzman managed to get an iron grip on Star Trek? Is there any chance or way he can be binned off? It will never be good while he is involved. Can't we have someone like Ronald D. Moore in charge instead?

Alberon

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2020, 11:13:02 PM »
Discovery was supposed to be in profit from the off due to selling it outside the US to Netflix and the Star Trek name is a good one to lead the CBS online platform.

But I don’t get the feeling fans are terribly enthused by the new shows. I’m willing to see how Brave New Worlds turns out but if it’s as shit as the other three then I’ll probably walk away from it all.

Trek doesn’t have the TV SF world to itself anymore as it largely did in the 80s and 90s.

Wonderful Butternut

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2020, 11:19:45 PM »
How and why has Kurtzman managed to get an iron grip on Star Trek?

JJ Abrams brought him in to write the screenplays of the first two reboot films with Robert Orci. He abandoned ship for the third one, which incidentally was the best of that series.

As for Disco, he's listed as co-creator but I'm nearly certain that he wasn't actually involved at first. My recollection is that Bryan Fuller successfully pitched it, and was running the show during all the early concept work, setting, characters, plot and is definitely responsible for the Klingorcs. But they hit problems behind the scenes, some writers started to leave and Fuller was effectively pushed out by the studio.[1] Then they turned to Kurtzman because of his involvement in the reasonably financially successful reboot movies and he hasn't released his claws since.

I could be remembering this wrong, however.

I can only assume that he and his acolytes did enough with Disco that CBS were willing to greenlight Picard and Lower Decks too. Although there have been rumours that Netflix were properly pissed that the international distribution of Disco wasn't nearly as lucrative as they thought, hence why Picard was with Amazon Prime instead of Netflix like Disco. I wonder how much of their viewing figures come from Star Trek fans 'giving it a chance' that'll dwindle over the next season of each if they don't improve.
 1. He was credited as 'Executive Consultant' for season 2. That's the type of title they gave Gene for the movies when they thought he was going a bit nuts and sidelined him completely on the creative process.

Blumf

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #75 on: August 11, 2020, 10:40:51 AM »
From my understanding, Lower Decks has been in development for ages, before CBS realised that DIS and PIC were failures (which they are, because CBS doesn't talk about viewing figures and Netflix told them to fuck off)

All that's left is that kids cartoon, Prodigy, which at least won't be full of substance abuse and vivisection. Everything else is either outright cancelled or put into a shady development area with little news of progress.

Malcy

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #76 on: August 11, 2020, 10:52:54 AM »
From my understanding, Lower Decks has been in development for ages, before CBS realised that DIS and PIC were failures (which they are, because CBS doesn't talk about viewing figures and Netflix told them to fuck off)

All that's left is that kids cartoon, Prodigy, which at least won't be full of substance abuse and vivisection. Everything else is either outright cancelled or put into a shady development area with little news of progress.

Prodigy has announced its 'creative lead'  which I assume is just a fancy name for showrunner.

https://trekmovie.com/2020/08/10/award-winning-producer-director-joins-star-trek-prodigy-as-creative-lead/

Strange New Worlds is apparently up to the script writing stage. To be 10 episodes I think. As for the Section 31 show it's something I don't see happening. It was originally supposed to be getting made right after DSC series 2 but then SNW got announced and it's been pushed back again.

Wonderful Butternut

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #77 on: August 11, 2020, 05:58:46 PM »
From my understanding, Lower Decks has been in development for ages, before CBS realised that DIS and PIC were failures (which they are, because CBS doesn't talk about viewing figures and Netflix told them to fuck off)

All that's left is that kids cartoon, Prodigy, which at least won't be full of substance abuse and vivisection. Everything else is either outright cancelled or put into a shady development area with little news of progress.

Despite Disco's lack of performance upsetting Netflix, it's apparently been renewed by CBS up to Season 5. So, somehow, it can't have flopped quite that hard. Of course if season 3 tanks, then maybe S4 & S5 will be unrenewed. Especially if Strange New Worlds is there to take its place.

I wouldn't be surprised if Season 1 of Picard was actually successful in terms of viewership. A lot of people gave it a chance for the season even though they didn't like it. Those people, me included, are still numbers and money, even if we're poor in terms of critical reception. Season 2 could see those people switch off if it's more of the same though.

Lemming

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2020, 04:37:03 PM »
Second episode was a touch better than the first, but it still feels like this entire show doesn't need to exist.

The callbacks to existing stuff are mostly just annoying ("KIRK HANDS!", "Try the Janeway Protocol", etc) and it's still just not that funny. Liked some of the visuals in this episode at least. I don't really see where they're going with Mariner - she's unstoppable, knows everything, and seems to have insane combat skills as well as insane diplomatic skills. Either they're setting her up for a fall or she really is just the single greatest person ever to live.

Alberon

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2020, 11:11:22 PM »
Still haven’t got through the first episode. I think the extant of my engagement with this show will be this thread.

Sad in a way - the first entire Trek series I’ve bailed on.

Mister Six

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2020, 11:24:52 PM »
The callbacks to existing stuff are mostly just annoying ("KIRK HANDS!", "Try the Janeway Protocol", etc) and it's still just not that funny. Liked some of the visuals in this episode at least. I don't really see where they're going with Mariner - she's unstoppable, knows everything, and seems to have insane combat skills as well as insane diplomatic skills. Either they're setting her up for a fall or she really is just the single greatest person ever to live.

Well she's a black woman in a pandering modern Star Trek show so yeah, probably the latter. See also: Michael from Discovery.

Wonderful Butternut

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2020, 10:44:32 PM »
Rutherford's plot was cool. Made the senior crew not look like shits as a bonus. Aside from the fact that seriously trying to change divisions just so he could spend more time with Tendi is a bit extreme, (does he not have some downtime in the evening or anything?) but I'd forgive it that.

Jesus fucking Christ, Mariner though. Wesley Crusher and Season 2 Burnham had a baby and then force fed it steroids. Obnoxious know it all who can handle any situation and then when Boilmer feels inferior about it, she pretends not to recognise a Ferengi to try and make him feel better. As if any Starfleet officer could confuse a Ferengi with a Bolian. And it's not even a random Ferengi either, it's her friend, who just conveniently happened to be there, and she got him do it on purpose. And of course he's an ass about it for no reason later.

So if Boilmer and Mariner just get killed and the rest of the series is about Rutherford and Tendi, I'd be happy.

I'm probably being very optimistic but Boilmer responds to Mariner's comment about doing 'black ops' with the Klingon 'back in the day' by asking what day since Mariner is the same age as him. Maybe, just maybe, rather than that being an offhand 'joke', it's the first hint that Mariner is actually not what she appears - a human ensign in her early 20s and they'll drag some decent plot material out of that. I'm probably just desperate for something intellectual though and it's just for laughs. And either way I would really just prefer if the two of them were killed.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 10:56:53 PM by Wonderful Butternut »

Lemming

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2020, 11:56:26 PM »
Well she's a black woman in a pandering modern Star Trek show so yeah, probably the latter. See also: Michael from Discovery.

I ended up warming up to Burnham a bit, but a lot of that was definitely due to Martin-Green's performance, which I think was impressively strong considering how shit a lot of the material was, and she ended up imbuing the character with more nuance than actually existed in the scripts (because none existed in the scripts). Since this is an animation and the voice directors are clearly demanding very broad and shouty performances from the actors, Mariner's got no such chance. They must be going somewhere with the character though, because if all is as it seems to be right now, they've literally just written an even more annoying Wesley, as Wonderful Butternut says, and surely no writer - especially not a writer working on a Star Trek production - is going to walk into that trap again.

...surely.

Lemming

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #83 on: August 20, 2020, 05:46:38 PM »
Anyone else still watching this? Episode three was pretty tedious and echoed the same themes as the previous two - everyone on the ship is a dipshit who can't do their job (including bridge crew), Star Trek tropes have to be "hilariously" subverted in the most painfully predictable ways, past series and characters (in this case, Kirk and O'Brien) have to be referenced for no real reason, Mariner is a demigod, and above all else everything is just NOT FUNNY.

I did get the first actual laugh so far, though, when the attacking aliens refer to the Federation as "wood loving freaks" or something like that.

Wonderful Butternut

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2020, 05:47:52 PM »
I'll probably pick it up tomorrow.

Malcy

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2020, 10:23:28 PM »
Anyone else still watching this? Episode three was pretty tedious and echoed the same themes as the previous two - everyone on the ship is a dipshit who can't do their job (including bridge crew), Star Trek tropes have to be "hilariously" subverted in the most painfully predictable ways, past series and characters (in this case, Kirk and O'Brien) have to be referenced for no real reason, Mariner is a demigod, and above all else everything is just NOT FUNNY.

I did get the first actual laugh so far, though, when the attacking aliens refer to the Federation as "wood loving freaks" or something like that.

Have to disagree. I got a good few laughs out of this weeks. It's probably the most I've enjoyed an episode of Trek since it came back to TV. yeah its all a bit silly but this weeks was a step up from the previous two. It looks great too, it's nice to see familiar designs and the score has some nice nods to the past.

The constant referencing is a bit annoying but still not as much as Mariner. Slightly toned down this week so hoping that's a gradual thing. Thought the opening and closing scenes were really good. I'm just trying to enjoy it since DSC & Picard are so shit.

Lemming

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #86 on: August 27, 2020, 11:12:50 PM »
Tonight's episode was the first that I felt had more pros than cons:

- Actual standalone sci-fi plot that isn't just a send-up of tropes
- Senior officers and the Captain actually came off as competent
- The episode seemed to largely want you to side with the Captain, and therefore against Mariner, which is great because Mariner is still UNBEARABLE
- Laughed four times!
- Tellarite

Still plenty to complain about - the "ascension" B-plot, Mariner being hyper-competent again (when the plot would have worked even better if she'd had to defer to the Captain), most jokes still not working - but it's at least made me hopeful that they have some kind of arc in mind for Mariner that ends with her being less insufferable.

Mister Six

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2020, 01:02:14 PM »
Jesus fucking Christ, Mariner though. Wesley Crusher and Season 2 Burnham had a baby

Was Burnham even more of a messianic Mary Sue in season 2 than she was in season 1? One of the reasons I gave up at the hiatus was that I was tired of every episode revolving around how great but misunderstood she was, as every character waited for her to fix everything. Even in the episode where the doctor (good character, great actor) was doing his Groundhog Day thing!

Wonderful Butternut

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2020, 02:16:28 PM »
Was Burnham even more of a messianic Mary Sue in season 2 than she was in season 1? One of the reasons I gave up at the hiatus was that I was tired of every episode revolving around how great but misunderstood she was, as every character waited for her to fix everything. Even in the episode where the doctor (good character, great actor) was doing his Groundhog Day thing!

I didn't really consider her a Sue in season 1, but in season 2 she kinda was. Literally everything that happened in season 2, except Stamets & Culber's relationship, revolved around her. The funniest bit was when Spock criticised her for being so arrogant as to try to take the entire universe's problems on her shoulders as if everything revolved around her. Except instead of this being a jumping off point for growth for the character, later in the very same episode she is directly told that the season's overarching plot was all about her.

Probably don't need to spoiler that, but just in case someone wants to watch the trainwreck without having it ruined for them.

Mister Six

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Re: Star Trek: Lower Decks
« Reply #89 on: August 28, 2020, 06:16:55 PM »
In season one - at least the first half - she felt like a teen fanfic Mary Sue, in that she's angsty and misunderstood and put upon, but the Federation's hatred of her is really down to bad luck. She constantly and consistently does the right thing in every situation, but circumstances conspire to make her the victim and outcast. And she has an inner brilliance that makes her bosses respect her even when the normies hate her, and she's Spock's sister, and Spock's dad loved her the most and so on and so on and so on...

I know the Treks have historically featured remarkable people as their central captain/commander figures, but they usually had some kind of flaw, weakness or other humanising element (Picard hating kids, Sisko being a grumpy man on the verge of going apeshit etc) and they'd be backgrounded to let the other cast members shine. And even when you had Sisko being the "prophet", he never felt like he was the centre of the universe (or the quadrant).

I don't know whether it's because the writers were a bunch of fanboys who were living their Star Trek dreams out through the show, or whether it was just a misguided attempt to make their woman of colour character "strong", but it's tedious. Not as tedious as me moaning about it two years later. But tedious.

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