Author Topic: Phil Minton  (Read 5400 times)

the

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #120 on: July 17, 2020, 04:24:00 PM »
I know you've implied what it is you like about it, but only between arguments about how wrong people are to dislike it.

There have been no arguments about how wrong people are to dislike it. The arguments were against dismissing the form as a deception/fraud/pisstake, and its audience as pseuds/suckers.

At least 3 or 4 of the people who kicked against that dismissal added that they're not into the music/form (myself included).

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #121 on: July 17, 2020, 07:13:49 PM »
I love the serious intro credit screen, then the notification that this part 5 of a bootleg series so it’s some primo shit, then it does a smash cut to the actual performance.

I think just a recording would have been an interesting exercise in the limits of free expression vocals. With the visuals as well, it becomes absurd. I don’t think I’d be able to style it out if I was in the room.

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #122 on: July 17, 2020, 07:17:37 PM »
Duetto buffo di due gatti
Barcelona orchestra playing to 3000 potted plants
This Phil Minton video


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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #123 on: July 17, 2020, 07:24:37 PM »
I don't think there's anything particularly funny about the cultural appropriation of the people of Eggdillis-9

NoSleep

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #124 on: July 17, 2020, 08:57:21 PM »
See, when it comes to stuff you don't like you're equally as dismissive. The difference is that when you say the Beatles were shit and not experimental none of us who like the Beatles can just say "oh that's because you don't get it and you need to listen to it some more."

Way to misrepresent somebody. The Beatles are an OK band, they're not shit; I just don't buy into the hype from journalists and fans, but they were more popularisers than innovators and changed the music business rather than they changed music. But some Beatles fans are really shitty.

A lot of free jazz, like Braxton and Bailey is unintentionally funny, because they are so serious about what they do. This guy, on the other hand, seems like the kind of person you could have a pint with.

You must not have seen Bailey live because that's as far from the truth as you could get (One particular performance, in 1972, I think, I saw between him and Han Bennick seemed to have been set up to be played for laughs throughout. Not to mention doing several albums with the Japanese prog-rock duo, Ruins, for whom humour is never far off. I recommend you read Ben Watson's book about Bailey. www.amazon.com/Derek-Bailey-Story-Free-Improvisation/dp/1781681058/cab-21

Braxton must have a sense of humour, too, as he's played with Wolf Eyes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBTdG6Xe9i4
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 09:12:54 PM by NoSleep »

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #125 on: July 18, 2020, 05:26:19 AM »
Phil Minton is class. I remember hating his shit at first. I found it very difficult to get anything out of it, but as I explored more of the world of extended vocal techniques and vocal improv, which is a fucking class rabbit hole to go down if you want some head melting sonic experiences, I realise Minton is actually pretty fucking cool: The way he throws himself so physically into his performances and moves through these spasms and vocal ticks is definitely quite confronting and full on, but as NoSleep said, much earlier, it's just the way a saxophonist will use similar tools to make screeches and scrapes and yelps and pops with their instrument.

I think we find it hard to take that level of experimentation and manipulation when listening to the human voice, because it is so uncommon for us to hear the voice being used in that way, when it isn't just some monster character in a cartoon or something, but if can get to a place where you can let go of that, you can enjoy this stuff more.

Saying that, I was specifically focusing on these sorts of artists when I was doing my degree and my masters, so happy to accept that I'm part of a very very small audience of people who actually love this shit.

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #126 on: July 18, 2020, 05:29:25 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCS4vUym0_8

Phil Minton & Christian Marclay
- this is right up my street. All those tones, drones, atmospherics Marclay generates compliment Minton's creepy excursions very well in this and I love their interplay throughout.

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #127 on: July 19, 2020, 12:56:31 PM »
Thanks for the link OP, this is the best thing I've ever heard.

And it's the best thing most of you lot have ever heard too, even if you don't realise it.

It's not as good as this though-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH-szNrtIgQ

but what is.

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #128 on: July 19, 2020, 01:23:17 PM »
Big Philly Styles

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #129 on: July 19, 2020, 01:25:30 PM »


Can I just surprise you? I like Phil Minton.

And Fire Fractcal Fing bloke.

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #130 on: July 19, 2020, 06:29:35 PM »
I wonder what Phil Minton sounds like while he's straining out a difficult stool? Disappointing if he just grunted a bit and didnt use his full set of vocal gymnastics to express his frustration at the prolonged exertion of a troublesomely lodged turd

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #131 on: July 19, 2020, 07:08:25 PM »
I may not agree with everything Phil Minton sings but I'll defend to the death his right to sing it.

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #132 on: July 19, 2020, 09:48:27 PM »
I wonder what Phil Minton sounds like while he's straining out a difficult stool?

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #133 on: July 19, 2020, 10:02:13 PM »
Watching the video linked to by the OP without sound was just as entertaining as watching it with, really. He definitely looks exactly like a man who's called Phil Minton, so no disappointment on that front. Without audio I think I'd assume it was a one-man fringe theatre show about a bloke having an existential crisis in the stationery cupboard.

I knew of his name from an exhibition I went to at the Wellcome Collection a few years ago called This Is A Voice (which covered vocal experimentation in music) so this is sort of along the lines of what I was expecting, tbh (I'm not by any means knowledgeable on this stuff, I just find the 'voice as an instrument' thing quite interesting). So thanks for the prompt to actually check him out.

IMHO it's possible to enjoy stuff like this (if you want to, obviously anyone's entitled to dislike it) at the same time as finding it silly or amusing - that may even be part of the appeal. There's plenty of music I absolutely love but still find it excruciating when fans go down the "This is TRUE ART" or "[band/artist] is GOD" road.

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #134 on: July 20, 2020, 09:23:14 AM »
I'm sure I'd heard of Phil Minton a few years ago, probably from here or the Cardiacs FB page or something like that.

Anyway, I love it and it improved my weekend immeasurably. Yes, I'll admit, I found it initially embarrassing, like a parody of the ultra-avant-garde, WTAF?!?!?-worthy, but then I couldn't help but find it anything other than hugely compelling. As has been mentioned, it's the experience of someone rendering these noises from their voice alone rather than through the 'comfort blanket' of an instrument that's so unusual, almost too visceral for comfort. Anyway, I found myself watching several of his videos and found his interviews particularly enlightening. Not much else to add, except that I agree with NoSleep.

Oh, and this :-)

When your Grandpa is Phil Minton

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #135 on: July 20, 2020, 02:45:11 PM »
The question you're being asked of how to apportion focus is interesting: are the sounds the main thing, or is it the commitment, the 'belief' of the act (the balls of the guy)? It's hard to imagine wanting to listen to audio-only versions of his things; this is clearly a type of performance art (they seem to share some of the spirit of Arnulf Rainer's abjectly 'vandalised' self-portraits - see below). Improv often comes to seem an exploration of the limits of instantaneous creativity - the strain and frustration of trying to conjure up something worthwhile out of thin air becomes the subject of the work.



Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #136 on: July 20, 2020, 03:02:29 PM »
The question you're being asked of how to apportion focus is interesting: are the sounds the main thing, or is it the commitment, the 'belief' of the act (the balls of the guy)? It's hard to imagine wanting to listen to audio-only versions of his things; this is clearly a type of performance art (they seem to share some of the spirit of Arnulf Rainer's abjectly 'vandalised' self-portraits - see below). Improv often comes to seem an exploration of the limits of instantaneous creativity - the strain and frustration of trying to conjure up something worthwhile out of thin air becomes the subject of the work.


Nope, having seen him live I would say the amount of amusement/interest in his physical performance wears off pretty quickly and for me at least it was purely a sound thing. It's hard to get across on a youtube clip the subtlety and range he has, nor the intricacies of the communication between performers on the fly. People are very quick to label stuff that is a bit weird 'performance art' but in this case his performance is not all that wild, he's just standing/sitting and contorting his face a bit in order to make the sounds he wants to make. Not that there isn't stuff in the free improv scene that definitely has a performance art/theatrical element.

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #137 on: July 20, 2020, 03:09:21 PM »
Just to note that 'performance art' isn't a put-down, as far as I'm concerned (I'm more steeped in it than improv music).

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #138 on: July 20, 2020, 03:12:26 PM »
If free-improv is a good thing, and charidee is a good thing:

Then in my estimation Mr Minton is this equivalent of an exponent of said thing.

NoSleep

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #139 on: July 20, 2020, 03:12:55 PM »
It's hard to imagine wanting to listen to audio-only versions of his things; this is clearly a type of performance art.

I don't think it's as clear cut as that. Phil Minton is first and foremost a musician with a long career as such. As with many performing musicians (perhaps with vocalists more than others) it comes with an amount of theatre (see also Joe Cocker) but that is largely a side product of being there to create music.

Quote
Improv often comes to seem an exploration of the limits of instantaneous creativity - the strain and frustration of trying to conjure up something worthwhile out of thin air becomes the subject of the work.

Again, only to some extent. Derek Bailey has commented how it was counterintuitive if he found himself trying to "come up with something" for an audience; and that the best he could do was to try and achieve the same state of mind as when he was playing at home without any thought of "entertaining" or "impressing" others. What you're saying there might only have any bearing in that respect and particularly if it was a solo performance. If you are one of an ensemble or a even in a duet it becomes much more about contributing usefully to what you are listening to and playing the game in the moment. Although I doubt that there is much strain and frustration about worthiness involved, even in solo performances, if the performer has as much experience as Minton or Bailey.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 04:29:30 PM by NoSleep »

wosl

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #140 on: July 20, 2020, 03:40:55 PM »
"Worthwhile" was a bad choice of word. Just the effort of creating 'something' grows up along side the thing trying to be made, and becomes the 'true' or at least equal subject of the work. But certainly, as you suggest has happened with Minton, by the time you're on in years and experience, standard notions of goals or "success" should've become pretty much beside the point, if they were ever there, even broadly, to begin with.

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #141 on: July 20, 2020, 05:39:36 PM »

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #142 on: July 20, 2020, 06:12:51 PM »
Just to note that 'performance art' isn't a put-down, as far as I'm concerned (I'm more steeped in it than improv music).

No absolutely not, wasn't suggesting that.

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #143 on: July 20, 2020, 08:53:39 PM »
Can’t believe you nerds have never seen a beatboxer before.

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #144 on: July 20, 2020, 09:20:12 PM »
I don't mind being magnanimous about stuff like this - it's not my cup of tea but it's a healthy thing that it exists etc etc. - but I doubt his fans would have anything but contempt for anything I like. That's what annoys me.

NoSleep

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #145 on: July 20, 2020, 11:16:34 PM »
Pigamus is the real victim here.

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Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #146 on: July 20, 2020, 11:46:30 PM »
I've just started on this thread today and have got really into Phil Minton. Something about what he was up to is connecting with me at this exact point in time. I'm sat about on my own day after day at work dealing with an excruciatingly complicated new purchase order system they've just dumped on me while all the rest of my department are still on furlough, trapped in the capitalist system of being made to feel lucky that I'm still in employment despite my old pre-February carefree worklife suddenly becoming much more of a lonely, bureaucratic, soul sapping trudge. Watching video after video of a nondescript looking bloke with an almost comically nondescript name sat on a chair summoning ludicrous goblin on the toilet noises seemed like an appropriate reaction. I went from initial bemusement to thinking "there's something in this, this guy's doing something I'm unable to do and I'm into it." I subsequently went on a Phil Minton YouTube binge and started appreciating the artistry more, all the while fantasising about the CEO walking in on a surprise visit and seeing me dancing about and retching along to Phil Minton videos and deciding "This man has had a nervous breakdown, I recommend he rests at home for the duration of 2020 on full pay."  I'm a decent vocalist and in an ideal world I'd much rather be exploring the outer reaches of my larynx's abilities than phoning up some anonymous dicksplash in Paris to ask them why my requisition for some camera batteries has still not been approved to become a purchase order. Phil Minton would never let a sentence as fucking boring as that pass his lips and if he did he'd fuck about with it so it was unrecognisable and you wouldn't be able to understand it. That's where he and me differ.

I don't appear to be able to resist my natural inclination to be flippant about things I'm impressed by but don't quite understand. But, yeah, Phil Minton. Into him. Better lyrics than Oasis at least oh there I go again.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 12:07:15 AM by non capisco »

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #147 on: July 24, 2020, 03:31:27 PM »
I don't mind being magnanimous about stuff like this - it's not my cup of tea but it's a healthy thing that it exists etc etc. - but I doubt his fans would have anything but contempt for anything I like. That's what annoys me.

What annoys you is an assumed reaction of someone you've invented?

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #148 on: July 24, 2020, 06:43:19 PM »
What must his parents think

Re: Phil Minton
« Reply #149 on: August 02, 2020, 08:19:53 PM »
Surprised this thread's gone by without a mention of Skatgobs, a vocal trio consisting of Minton and two other likevoiced individuals, who've played at the likes of Stewart Lee's All Tomorrow's Parties. I won't wade into the debate about whether they're technically music or not but I'll say seeing the likes of this performed live would be nothing short of invigorating

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