Phil Minton

[Cuellar]

I think people fall back to calling it 'art' because if it's described as music, people will say 'MUSIC??? CALL THAT MUSIC????'

[The Mollusk]

It's when music has to stop being described as 'music' and described as 'art' that makes me wary. Also, whenever this type of music is being discussed, humour is always mentioned and yet there's a complete lack of it from anyone talking about it or from any of the performers. Just lots of people taking themselves very seriously.

I don't think it's at all outside of the realms of possibility for people to take humour seriously, nor do I think it's necessary for people to laugh in order to express or even experience amusement.

I do still think the chap is a load of shite personally, but I am siding with those here who think that some of the disapproval here is rather "chip on shouldery".

[NoSleep]

It is, but it's generally only stuff that's not strong enough to get by on the 'music' tag that gets described as 'art'.

Who's doing this? You seem to be projecting your own assumptions on others' behaviour. Why does it concern you?

[NoSleep]

I don't think it's at all outside of the realms of possibility for people to take humour seriously...

Barry Admin has always said that was what this forum is about.

[BeardFaceMan]

I don't think it's at all outside of the realms of possibility for people to take humour seriously, nor do I think it's necessary for people to laugh in order to express or even experience amusement.

Yeah, I'd say that's true too. But from reading/hearing people talking about this stuff and seeing performances, I'm not seeing anything that says humourous particularly, that's all. Everything is very serious and earnest.

[The Mollusk]

Barry Admin has always said that was what this forum is about.

I think perhaps people see it differently because humour is a bit of a tricky subject when it comes to music. If it's not transparently humorous (by which I mean conventional music with funny lyrics) then its purpose comes into question more readily. This is made even more difficult since there's a great deal of comedy music (by which I mean conventional music with funny lyrics) which is fucking shite and very easily dismissed.

[Colin Sanction]

It's when music has to stop being described as 'music' and described as 'art' that makes me wary.

It's when music has to stop being described as 'music' and described as 'free improvised jazz' that makes me wary.

[NoSleep]

I'm not at all a fan of comedy music, but I like music where humour is allowed to creep in, seems a normal thing to do.

[NoSleep]

It's when music has to stop being described as 'music' and described as 'free improvised jazz' that makes me wary.

I see, describing a music in terms of its genre somehow proves that it isn't music? BTW, jazz has some very definite rules, whilst free improvisation eschews all rules; that its starting point.

[Norton Canes]

New poll suggestion - Who is better? Phil Minton or The Police? Or would they be better if Phil Minton was fronting The Police

De Ooo Urr Ekh, De Ngh Eee Aaaaaaaaah

[Colin Sanction]

I see, describing a music in terms of its genre somehow proves that it isn't music? BTW, jazz has some very definite rules, whilst free improvisation eschews all rules; that its starting point.

It was quite obvious mine was a humorous post not made to be taken seriously.

[The Mollusk]

I'd also like to posit that deep down inside us, surely those of us who don't "get" Phil Minton have to be asking, "Is it alright for me to find this funny?" I think if we were to allow ourselves to be a little less highly-strung on the notions of pretentiousness and so-called pseudo-intellectualism we would probably find this sort of thing a lot easier to accept.

I find humour in all sorts of stuff when it's not necessarily expected in the conventional sense, and that is certainly true of music. I've found myself laughing from the sheer thrill of live performances many times, from seeing Justice Yeldham writhing about on the floor creating screeching noise with a sheet of glass to seeing a hardcore band absolutely annihilate a crowd to the point where the singer was marching up and down on the bar and the people in the mosh pit grabbed the fabric of the low-hanging ceiling structure and tore the entire thing in half. Those things aren't particularly funny on paper but when I was there I fucking guffawed and absolutely loved it. I don't really see that this stuff is much different to that.

[the]

What's behind these flimsy paranoid accusations about who the audience allegedly are.

If musicians want to exercise their musical expression in this way, they can and do. If people want to watch them do it, they can and do. There's no confidence trick being played there.

[The Mollusk]

It was quite obvious mine was a humorous post not made to be taken seriously.

AAHH YOUVE BLOODY FLIPPED IT ON US YOU MAD BASTARD

[the]

It was quite obvious mine was a humorous post not made to be taken seriously.

Aaaaaaaaah

[NoSleep]

It was quite obvious mine was a humorous post not made to be taken seriously.

Not that obvious. Possibly as a pisstake of some of the other knee jerk reactions on display here. My answer was informative, nonetheless.

[Cuellar]

They are dubbing the applause on surely? If I heard this without any video, I would not be surprised to hear this is a toddler bashing randomly on a piano https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyZbcwiRd20

Just watched this and really enjoyed it. From your comment I thought it would be Phil Minton playing the piano, but it literally is a toddler bashing randomly on a piano so I don't really get your point. And anyway this video clearly shows that Minton has a great voice.

[sardines]

It's when music has to stop being described as 'music' and described as 'art' that makes me wary.

Edit: I removed this as it was far too po-faced.
The quick version is Minton is a highly regarded musician of 50 years and not a cunt.

[Sin Agog]

Yeah, I'd say that's true too. But from reading/hearing people talking about this stuff and seeing performances, I'm not seeing anything that says humourous particularly, that's all. Everything is very serious and earnest.

Phil Minton's somewhat adjacent to the Henry Cow crowd, Lol Coxhill, Bill Laswell, Bob Drake, RIO'ers like Samla Mammas Manna and whatnot, and those folks always seem to be taking themselves considerably less seriously than yer dinosaur rockers, probably because experimentation does require more than a fair bit of humour and playfulness:- like when Fred Frith said, 'Why not try and play the guitar like it's a tuba and see what happens?'  That's not a thought that would pop into a stony-faced academic's head.

[thugler]

Yeah, I'd say that's true too. But from reading/hearing people talking about this stuff and seeing performances, I'm not seeing anything that says humourous particularly, that's all. Everything is very serious and earnest.

This is absolute horsewank.

You've clearly not seen any of this kind of thing live, there is plenty of amusement (along with many other emotional reactions) in the audience throughout a performance. Not that I have a problem with any reaction to it, why must you police this? who cares if someone takes it seriously or not? You've watched a few videos online and decided everyone is pretending to like it or get anything from it because you don't. It's absolutely the opposite of a pseud wank audience because it's a small scene and it's not like there is much cred to be gained.

[NoSleep]

Phil Minton's somewhat adjacent to the Henry Cow crowd, Lol Coxhill, Bill Laswell, Bob Drake, RIO'ers like Samla Mammas Manna and whatnot, and those folks always seem to be taking themselves considerably less seriously than yer dinosaur rockers, probably because experimentation does require more than a fair bit of humour and playfulness:- like when Fred Frith said, 'Why not try and play the guitar like it's a tuba and see what happens?'  That's not a thought that would pop into a stony-faced academic's head.

I posted some Phil accompanied by John Greaves of Henry Cow at a Lindsay Cooper commemoration concert earlier in the thread. He, along with Robert Wyatt, guested as members of News From Babel, which also featured Dagmar Krause (how many good vocalists does one group need?) as well as Lindsay Cooper, Chris Cutler and Zeena Parkins, so his RIO credentials are impeccable.

Also mentioned earlier; Mike Westbrook's band (featuring Phil on trumpet & vocals) merged with Henry Cow and they toured as The Orckestra in the 70's playing a mix of jazz, folk, Brecht/Weill songs and some Henry Cow tunes. There's very few official recordings of the band and most of the "bootlegs" are really poorly recorded from too far away, etc, but there is one such recording of almost a full gig (possibly a soundboard recording) that's worth tracking down:

-------------
THE ORCKESTRA
Henry Cow + Mike Westbrook's Brass Band
Modena
September, 17 - 1977
----------------

here is a very good show from the Henry Cow & Mike Westbrook's Brass Band

enjoy the music...

Band:
----
Kate Barnard : voice, tenor horn, piccolo
Dave Chambers : soprano & tenor sax, flute
Fred Frith : guitar, viola, violin, xylophono, piano
Tim Hodgkinson: organ, sax contralto, clarinet
Lindsay Cooper: bassoon, oboe, flute, piano
Georgie Born : cello, bass
Chris Cutler : drums
Phil Minton : voice, trumpet
Paul Rutherford : trombone, euphonium, voice
Mike Westbrook : euphonium, piano

Set List (68:45)
-----------------
01 - Wheel of Fortune                                 (08:04)
02 - Teenbeat/Nirvana introduction                    (07:29)
03 - Beautiful as the Moon (Reprise)                  (06:30)
04 - Naima (J. Coltrane)                              (05:33)
05a - Mourn not the Dead (Frankie Armstrong/words-Ralph Chaplin)
05b - Impro (flute, wind, cello)                      (07:58)
06 - Jackie-ing (T. Monk)                             (02:42)
07 - Lady Howard's Coach                              (08:00)
08 - The Kanonen song (Brecht/Weill)                  (05:26)
09 - Let The Slave (words - William Blake)            (10:26)
10 - Barthlemy Fair                                   (06:37) 

One of my very favourites of both bands; their version of Coltrane's Naima is amazing.

[BeardFaceMan]

Edit: I removed this as it was far too po-faced.
The quick version is Minton is a highly regarded musician of 50 years and not a cunt.

I never described him as one.

This is absolute horsewank.

You've clearly not seen any of this kind of thing live, there is plenty of amusement (along with many other emotional reactions) in the audience throughout a performance. Not that I have a problem with any reaction to it, why must you police this? who cares if someone takes it seriously or not? You've watched a few videos online and decided everyone is pretending to like it or get anything from it because you don't. It's absolutely the opposite of a pseud wank audience because it's a small scene and it's not like there is much cred to be gained.

I'm not trying to police, you can do what you like. I haven't decided everyone is pretending to like it or not getting anything from it, you clearly are and I'm asking what it is because I'm not getting anything other than fits of giggles and lots of "oh for fucks sake"'s. As it's something I don't understand, I'm merely asking why and having a bit of fun and getting the usual humourless, po-faced responses. Special K's comment was clearly a joke as it was direct quote of me but with one thing changed, as an example of how people lack a sense of humour about this stuff (the response I mean, not the joke).

[thugler]

It is, but it's generally only stuff that's not strong enough to get by on the 'music' tag that gets described as 'art'.

So basically only stuff you personally enjoy is music.

[BeardFaceMan]

So basically only stuff you personally enjoy is music.

No, no idea how you got that from what I said. What was posted in the OP and from what I've seen, I wouldn't call it 'art', I'd call it shit 'music'. The 'shit' bit would be the personal enjoyment aspect.

[NoSleep]

So you were talking on behalf some imagined other people then, as you said was called it "art" because it wasn't "strong" enough to get by as music.

[ASFTSN]

NoSleep, just to switch around my position and be devil's advocate because I'm curious - is there any music you think is shit?

[NoSleep]

Yeah, but I don't bother taking up my time talking about it.

[BeardFaceMan]

So you were talking on behalf some imagined other people then, as you said was called it "art" because it wasn't "strong" enough to get by as music.

No, not imagined other people, people in this thread, and elsewhere, describe it as art more than music. The music not being strong enough to be just called music and is called art is my own theory as to why.

[NoSleep]

Can you point out where this was said, please? I'm looking back now and I only see people talking about imaginary other people doing this.

[BeardFaceMan]

Can you point out where this was said, please? I'm looking back now and I only see people talking about imaginary other people doing this.

Love this, especially the first video in the OP. The very fact that he looks like a middle manager having a breakdown elevates it to art, in my opinion.

for one.