Phil Minton

[NoSleep]

But that isn't any more than somebody taking a passing interest in the thread giving an outsider's point of view. It's an initial reaction to something previously unseen, not an apology for any weakness as music.

[BeardFaceMan]

But that isn't any more than somebody taking a passing interest in the thread giving an outsider's point of view. It's an initial reaction to something previously unseen, not an apology for any weakness as music.

No, not imagined other people, people in this thread, and elsewhere, describe it as art more than music. The music not being strong enough to be just called music and is called art is my own theory as to why.

[NoSleep]

Repeating yourself doesn't negate my point. That's your one example?

[BeardFaceMan]

I needed to repeat myself because you seemed to misunderstand when I said it was my own theory, not someone else's.

"An outsiders view", would you listen to yourself ffs? And you think there's no pretentiousness involved? OK, I'm out.

[NoSleep]

Yes, it's your own theory about an imagined audience that goes to see Phil Minton making excuses for his "weak" music by calling it "art". All I'm asking for is a real life example of this theory of yours.

"An outsiders view", would you listen to yourself ffs? And you think there's no pretentiousness involved? OK, I'm out.

I think it's a fair description of Cuellar's POV. He's looking at something he's maybe never seen before (and not resort to calling others pseuds or cunts). At least that's the impression I get.

There's another of those words; "pretentiousness". Who's pretending? It appears you are pretending there these people that go to see Phil Minton making excuses for his "weak" music by calling it "art".

[BeardFaceMan]

Yes, it's your own theory about an imagined audience that goes to see Phil Minton making excuses for his "weak" music by calling it "art". All I'm asking for is a real life example of this theory of yours.

I think it's a fair description of Cuellar's POV. He's looking at something he's maybe never seen before (and not resort to calling others pseuds or cunts). At least that's the impression I get.

There's another of those words; "pretentiousness". Who's pretending? It appears you are pretending there these people that go to see Phil Minton making excuses for his "weak" music by calling it "art".

Christ, do you really not know what pretentious means?

adjective. characterized by assumption of dignity or importance, especially when exaggerated or undeserved.

I haven't called anyone a pseud or a cunt.

https://agosto-foundation.org/an-interview-with-phil-minton - described there as 'sound art'. Really can't be arsed to google something which is blatantly obvious. Are you really saying that no one who listens to this stuff on the reg refers to it as 'art'?

I see on his Feral Choir page he works with non-professionals and non-musicians, so bang goes your theory about not anybody being able to do it too.

Yeah, this is just pointless now. Goes back to my point about there being an overwhelming lack of humour in these discussions from fans who claim there's loads, this is now beyond lockdown tedious.

[Cuellar]

Point of information, I wasn't calling it 'art' because I didn't think it was music - I would call a Beethoven symphony art, too.

Thanks, bye.

[ProvanFan]

In a way, isn't this thread all part of his performance?

[jobotic]

It's when music has to stop being described as 'music' and described as 'k-pop' that makes me wary.

[Colin Sanction]

In a way, isn't this thread all part of his performance?

Ahhhhh...

4 pages and 33 posts? Who said you can't have humour in experimental music threads.

[thugler]

I haven't called anyone a pseud or a cunt.

https://agosto-foundation.org/an-interview-with-phil-minton - described there as 'sound art'. Really can't be arsed to google something which is blatantly obvious. Are you really saying that no one who listens to this stuff on the reg refers to it as 'art'?

I see on his Feral Choir page he works with non-professionals and non-musicians, so bang goes your theory about not anybody being able to do it too.

Yeah, this is just pointless now. Goes back to my point about there being an overwhelming lack of humour in these discussions from fans who claim there's loads, this is now beyond lockdown tedious.

You have tacitly done so by casting doubt on the intentions and sincerity of both the performer and the audience, as well as suggesting that there is no ability or musicality there.
I don't see anyone calling it sound art or music as a way of making up for it lacking in some way, this is your position. Working with non pro musicians doesn't stop someone being a musician. Also the argument of 'anyone could have done that!' is completely tedious at this point, nor is it accurate. Your argument is no different to someone hearing any kind of music that is initially alien to them and not considering it musical. Rap is 'just talking', noise music is 'just a racket' etc. You don't like it, great. But don't cast judgement about the people performing this music and those who enjoy it. 

[Sin Agog]

I see on his Feral Choir page he works with non-professionals and non-musicians, so bang goes your theory about not anybody being able to do it too.

Professional musicians have been refreshing themselves with non-musicians for centuries.  There often comes a point when you know too many chords and are continually banging your head against the walls of your knowledge, and non-musicians will come along with no conception of music's supposed boundaries and revive your love of the form all over again.  This Heat's secret weapon, amidst an arsenal of ex-proggies, was arguably Gareth Williams, who hadn't done anything before. And I think it was Ornette Coleman who told a story about how one day while he was in a dive bar, a guy who'd never played before picked up the Double Bass and did something completely unpredictable and unique, inspiring Coleman for years, before walking out the door never to be seen again (and no, he didn't shove it up his arse).

[The Mollusk]

NoSleep, just to switch around my position and be devil's advocate because I'm curious - is there any music you think is shit?

Yeah, but I don't bother taking up my time talking about it.

There's good humour to be found in talking about shit music. This isn't meant to be an antagonistic comment either, it's true.

[NoSleep]

Christ, do you really not know what pretentious means?

Of course I do. (my grammar is now being questioned; a sure sign that the discussion is losing steam)

adjective. characterized by assumption of dignity or importance, especially when exaggerated or undeserved.

Yes; pretending to dignity or importance.

I haven't called anyone a pseud or a cunt.

Never said you did. I take it you've read the OP?

I see on his Feral Choir page he works with non-professionals and non-musicians, so bang goes your theory about not anybody being able to do it too.

Like John Stevens and others in that scene he teaches and works in community projects; putting something back in (before sardines deleted his post, he covered this). But all the people we've talked about in this thread, apart from John Russell[nb]EDIT: There you go: "On moving to London at the age of 17, he quickly became involved with the free improvisation scene, playing at The Little Theatre Club (run by drummer and educator John Stevens)."[/nb], as far as I know, have come to free improvisation from working professionally in, usually, jazz.

And of course anybody can have a go (it's a good way to begin learning music), but that's not the same as qualifying a kneejerk, tonedeaf "anybody could do this". As was made clear in the video with Phil and his grandchild, his contribution greatly enhanced what the little kid was doing uncannily. It's a really good example of his control over the moment, how well he's listening as well as performing.

[NoSleep]

There's good humour to be found in talking about shit music. This isn't meant to be an antagonistic comment either, it's true.

Too much good music to be heard. Stuff still waiting for me to get the time to listen it. Most things that are shit are merely mediocre. Anything that attracts my attention probably does so because there's something interesting about it, so that immediately excludes it from being in the shit list.

[Chedney Honks]

I came for the laughs but I watched a few and I respect what he's doing, even if I don't really enjoy listening to it. It's an exploration of his thoughts and feelings and digging up stuff that might also surprise him, it's not a presentation of what he thinks anyone else might like to listen to. It is funny, no doubt, but it's also anguished and sorrowful and excited and sometimes just fucking mad. That's a brain.

[NoSleep]

Exactly. Nobody would deny that a film can be good because it's unsettling. Where's the difference when it comes to music? Actually, film music[nb]A good time to mention that Ennio Morricone had his own free improvisation group[/nb] slips in stuff that many people would otherwise not listen to casually. The thing that excites in music is unpredictability.

[Famous Mortimer]

But that isn't any more than somebody taking a passing interest in the thread giving an outsider's point of view. It's an initial reaction to something previously unseen, not an apology for any weakness as music.

How many hours does a person need to listen to him before you'll do something other than dismiss their opinion out of hand?

[NoSleep]

I don't see that I dismissed anybody out of hand. I was trying to explain my understanding of Cuellar's response to seeing Phil Minton for, what I believe, was the first time.

[Colin Sanction]

How many hours does a person need to listen to him before you'll do something other than dismiss their opinion out of hand?

Bob Dylan considers rewrite

[SteveDave]

As was made clear in the video with Phil and his grandchild, his contribution greatly enhanced what the little kid was doing uncannily.

[Sin Agog]

Sorry man, but I just can't take anything a guy who has one of my favourite ever albums as his avatar says about music seriously.

[kittens]

sounds like me takin a dump the morning after my mate Boner's stag

[Cuellar]

Sorry man, but I just can't take anything a guy who has one of my favourite ever albums as his avatar says about music seriously.

Someone in the 'great album covers' thread said this cover was a sneakily disguised anus.

One look at it tells me that is absolute horseshit. It's a mouth. How many anuses has this person seen? None, I'd wager.

[Shit Good Nose]

I once saw Minton "play" with Derek Bailey, Peter Kowald and Paul Wertico, which would likely have made most of you implode.

(full disclosure - it wasn't my cup of tea either)

[batwings]

I hope it makes it back to the Black Lodge.

[PlanktonSideburns]

hes no ivan dorin

[idunnosomename]

it's like the spicy turd that never ends

[Captain Z]

It's basically just that bit from Phoenix Nights, isn't it (14:37):

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7qkbps

[Retinend]

I've already watched it twice and I think it's something I would pay money to see live. You immediately see that it's not just a performance any old alky off the street could deliver, though superficially reminiscent. I mean, it's hardly "musical" but it's a great performance. It is funny, and I can't imagine he is oblivious to the fact. I mean, is he? A lot of free jazz, like Braxton and Bailey is unintentionally funny, because they are so serious about what they do. This guy, on the other hand, seems like the kind of person you could have a pint with.

Most things that are shit are merely mediocre.

See, when it comes to stuff you don't like you're equally as dismissive. The difference is that when you say the Beatles were shit and not experimental none of us who like the Beatles can just say "oh that's because you don't get it and you need to listen to it some more."

Now the elephant in the room is a little voice saying "oh you're just saying you like this music in order to be different," which to be clear I don't think is the case. I don't think you're deluded or an elitist for liking this music. I do think, however, that you're missing the chance to explain whatever it is you do like about Minton. I know you've implied what it is you like about it, but only between arguments about how wrong people are to dislike it.