alt.guardian.die.die.die

[imitationleather]

I've been thinking I'd quite like a Saturday paper delivery again - I just don't know what to get. Is there a single readable print newspaper in this country?

FT?

[mr. logic]

I don't there's anything ever- probably some novels, though none that spring to mind instantly- that capture relationship dynamics as perfectly as The Sopranos does. One of its most famous episodes is basically an hour long argument between two people in a failing marriage.

[Jumblegraws]

This is worse

A sufficiently invested person could probably make a case about how the two series warrant comparison or which one is ultimately the better TV show, whatever that means. To my mind, the fatal flaw in Freeman's claim is that SatC is critically acclaimed. Of the two "Greatest TV shows ever" articles I can remember reading over the years, the Sopranos and SatC were listed in both: https://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/best-tv-shows-ever-2/
https://www.tvguide.com/news/tv-guide-magazine-60-best-series-1074962/

Terfy Freeman just wants to write another article about being mansplained too, uninspired hack that she is.

[JaDanketies]

Hadley's response to Baddiel's nonsense:

Terfy Freeman just wants to write another article about being mansplained too, uninspired hack that she is.

"This person who I've just invented is a terrible misogynist! They don't even appreciate the quirky travails of Carrie and Amanda!"

[Blue Jam]

The Sopranos is also possibly the best exploration of toxic masculinity I have ever seen in fiction. Certainly better than Fight Club.

A friend of mine got dragged to the the second SATC movie by his husband and said he ended up kind of enjoying it as it was so amazingly offensive to so many different minority groups it was proper car-crash viewing. As well as the ripping off of the burkha scene I think there's also an incredibly clichéd portrayal of a gay wedding with a masculine groom in a black suit and an effeminate one in a white suit.

I'd suggest Hadley Freeman try watching The Sopranos and giving it her full attention, but then she'd notice all the Jews vs Catholics stuff and find something else to get irked about. Even though Tony Soprano and others are portrayed as racist and antisemitic, and pulled up on it by younger and more open-minded characters.

David Baddiel's "I haven't watched it, but..." tweet is annoyingly typical as well. Admittedly I was put off giving The Sopranos a go as I am also not generally into gangster/mafia things but it's so much more than that.

[chveik]

perfect example of the 'woke strawman'

[Bazooka]

I personally like the ending of Sex in and the city, when Carrie is standing at the checkout waiting to buy some expensive shoes, she hears a noise, looks up, then it fades to black.  We never know whether she bought the shoes or not.

[JaDanketies]

SJP is a committed advocate for trans people and Cynthia Nixon who played Miranda has three kids, the oldest of whom is transgender. Apparently there's some transphobia in season 3 of SATC that Hadley Freeman probably loves, even if SJP has distanced herself from it.

[Blue Jam]

I bet she fucking hates Orange Is The New Black doesn't she...

As a fan of all these Difficult Men dramas from The Golden Age Of Television, I was just wondering what Hadley Freeman thinks of the whole Breaking Bad universe, what with it featuring an Irish-American with a Catholic name who practices law under a Jewish name because people supposedly trust Jewish lawyers more, and one of the most fascinating and complex female characters ever:

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2015/apr/13/golden-age-tv-dress-mad-men-breaking-bad

Well, she hasn't actually watched any of it, and:

the Breaking Bad look is suitable only for Halloween

Last week alone saw the start of the last series of Mad Men, that amazing show about men who drink and do stuff, the end of Better Call Saul, a show about a man called Saul whom you'd better call

*headdesk*

She has however watched a bit of Mad Men, presumably not long enough to notice the subtext about progress in the feminist and social justice movements, just long enough to notice all the pretty clothes and wonder why ordinary people don't wear clothes like that every day. I dunno Hadley, perhaps it's because they're not all filthy rich?

I don't think I'll bother looking up her thoughts on Curb. Lots of Jews but also at least two transgender characters played by transgender actors. And even Larry David isn't transphobic towards them, just a little awkward. Imagine being more of an asshole than Larry David on trans issues...

[Blue Jam]

I for one am sick of starting films, books and albums, only to find out that I'm not in them.

Tell me about it. I avoid all sci-fi because I don't live in space or own a hoverboard. Ditto for all fantasy, I've never met a dragon or an elf. No wonder Star Wars and Lord of the Rings flopped.

[fortunepalace]

"fascinating that Uncle Tom's Cabin is considered a seminal work on the importance of freedom, while Tom & Jerry - which also features the word Tom in the title - is considered a childish and violent cartoon"

[Blue Jam]

Now I think about it, it is disappointing that the clothes in Breaking Bad are so unstylish. Why doesn't an underpaid chemistry teacher have a better wardrobe? Why do so many characters wear those unflattering short-sleeved shirts in the sweltering New Mexico heat? Why does a sleazy ambulance-chasing lawyer dress exactly like the real-life sleazy ambulance-chasing lawyers he is based on? And what about those hazmat suits? Surely death by inhalation of toxic gas is preferable to wearing those ugly things?

[Buelligan]

I saw a few minutes of SatC, once.  It seemed like trivial shite so I didn't watch any more.  I watched all of the Sopranos - except the end.  I never watch the end of things I really like.  I don't see the point in comparing the two, they're tv shows, one seemed interesting to me, the other didn't, it had nothing to do with the genitalia of the cast, though both seem to have been written, mainly, by men.

[Blue Jam]

Also Hadley Freeman likes Ugg Boots so she can fucking talk:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/jan/09/ask-hadley-ugg-boots-fashion-celebrity-hair

[bigfatheart]

Yeah, Morrissey whinging about things that say nothing about his life because they're created by black people they just don't is definitely the thing you want to invoke there, David.
Sadly, David Baddiel's work says nothing to me about my life because I've never blacked up and stuck a pineapple on my head.

[Jockice]

How strange. I actually mentioned Sex And The City in a Facebook post this morning. I was trying to think of a really crap American TV programme and it was the very first thing that came to mind. It doesn't cross my consciousness very often.

It's a show that I've seen four times in my life (and two of them were the same episode) and thought was shite. I quite like the theme tune though. I've never seen The Sopranos. Or Breaking Bad come to think of it. I was a big fan of Mad Men though. So what does that say about me? I'd better ask Hadley.

And Baddiel's misquoted Morrissey as well Unless they actually had a conversation in which he actually told Baddiel: "This says nothing to me about my life,'' As opposed to: "It says...' on Panic.

[Blue Jam]

Thinking about it, I probably found The Sopranos a bit more relatable than SATC if only because of the Catholic thing. I've never been in the Mafia but I have also never lived in New York and been a serial dater flitting between expensive restaurants while wearing expensive clothes. I have also never understood the obsession some women have with shoes and handbags, while I do enjoy Italian food and wine.

;)

[Cold Meat Platter]

Maybe Freeman and Baddiel could make a television show together where they both jump into a big hole.
They could call it Freeman and Baddiel In Pieces (At the Bottom of a Big Hole).

[Blue Jam]

How strange. I actually mentioned Sex And The City in a Facebook post this morning. I was trying to think of a really crap American TV programme and it was the very first thing that came to mind. It doesn't cross my consciousness very often.

It has a bit of a reputation as a crap, girly American TV show, and there's that joke about how seeing the SATC boxset in a woman's house is a sure-fire sign that she's not a keeper. This is perhaps unfair-people possibly assume it's crap because it's a show about women, for women.

I used to hate-watch it as an undergrad, with my flatmates, and we'd all be discussing it ("oh my god, what the hell is SJP wearing?"; "How do these horrible women get so many dates?" etc). For all that we hated it we also couldn't stop watching it, and looking back it is a well-written show with four complex (as opposed to "strong") female characters. The four leads are also pretty unsympathetic, which doesn't seem so unusual after Curb, The Thick Of It, It's Always Sunny but was back then. Before SATC Seinfeld was a pretty rare example of a sitcom with a cast of horrible characters. I'm still not a fan and I have no desire to revisit it, but I wonder if it's better than I remember, or if my older self would find more to appreciate. I'm not that curious though.

I have suggested before that SATC could be considered an all-female Seinfeld- a show about four New Yorkers who are serial daters and horrible people, who are constantly getting fixated on minor flaws and quirks in the men they date before Hilarity Ensues. In Seinfeld Elaine was meant to be "one of the guys" rather than the token woman so I think the comparison works.

Now please don't crucify me, CaBbers...

[Blue Jam]

Maybe Freeman and Baddiel could make a television show together where they both jump into a big hole.
They could call it Freeman and Baddiel In Pieces (At the Bottom of a Big Hole).

They could do that and Baddiel would once again be the unfunny half of a comedy duo.

[JaDanketies]

SATC is much more watchable than a lot of scripted comedies, including almost every comedy that's filmed in a nice flat and has a laugh track. The stories are at least slightly compelling.

[Chollis]

i used to watch SATC back when it was on telly, it was fine. the films look awful but i've never seen them.

isn't hadley rather glossing over the point that in SATC, the characters are supposed to be likeable, relatable and such. in Sopranos we know the mob characters are almost all heinous, sociopathic pieces of shit with awful views on race/sex etc

[phantom_power]

No-one other than the biggest prude would be offended by SATC. Also, just because you aren't a gangster, it doesn't mean the Sopranos doesn't say anything about your life. The best shows give you a window into a world that is removed from yours while also showing the similarities and universal themes and emotions.

[Cold Meat Platter]

Yup.
"I took nothing from Macbeth because I'm not an 11th century king."

[Ferris]

All this talk of "the golden age of telly" and not a single mention of the (frankly far superior) The Wire?

For shame.

[Buelligan]

No-one other than the biggest prude would be offended by SATC. Also, just because you aren't a gangster, it doesn't mean the Sopranos doesn't say anything about your life. The best shows give you a window into a world that is removed from yours while also showing the similarities and universal themes and emotions.

Indeed.

[poodlefaker]

Now I'm rememberign Baddiel's Desert Island Discs, which included a song by him, another song written by him, a song by his daughter, a song by some of his friends...kinda makes sense in light of the above.

[NoSleep]

Now I'm rememberign Baddiel's Desert Island Discs, which included a song by him, another song written by him, a song by his daughter, a song by some of his friends...kinda makes sense in light of the above.

"But enough about me... what do you think of my new record?"

[Cold Meat Platter]

I read a wee snippet of an interview with Dara "EEEEEEEEEH" O'Brien where he mentioned Baddiel coming up to him 3 separate times during his stint on Taskmaster to say "I am intelligent, you know." Didn't see it myself but i understand he may have behaved like what he would have termed a 'spanner' in his early TV days.

You shouldn't really have to say that if it's true, people do have the cognitive apparatus to make these judgements themselves. The same with people always wanking on about how kind they are.
Narcissists trying to manage perception of themselves. Anyone know of any evidence of this "intelligence" he speaks of? I know he has a degree but...

[The Culture Bunker]

All this talk of "the golden age of telly" and not a single mention of the (frankly far superior) The Wire?

For shame.

It's certainly a favourite of mine (certainly more than the Sopranos, which I couldn't get into) - this despite my not being a drug addict, drug dealer, policeman, dockworker or corrupt politician.

I was briefly a journalist, but the last series was a bit duff for my liking.