QAnon: Won't Somebody Think of the Storage Cabinets?

[Retinend]

Thanks to Famous Mortimer for this recommendation: https://soundcloud.com/media-roots/the-origins-of-qanon-follow-the-white-rabbit-into-a-deeper-layer-of-the-maga-cult-pt-1-of-2

[Retinend]

This episode of a podcast which is about Q-followers is also very good, and manages to humanize the movement somewhat.

"Does her obsession track with her spending more time on the internet?"
"Yes, and since her husband died, a hell of a lot more. We used to be friends, you know."

<sub>'Rabbit Hole,' Episode 7: 'Where We Go One'

Today, we're sharing Episode 7 of "Rabbit Hole," a New York Times audio series with the tech columnist Kevin Roose.

In this episode, our reporter investigates the QAnon conspiracy theories. The story of QAnon believers, united in a battle against what they see as dark forces of the world, reveals where the internet is headed.

For more information on "Rabbit Hole" and today's episode, visit nytimes.com/rabbithole.</sub>

I don't agree with the QAnonAnonymous podcast's view that this is the same thing as pure fascism, though it is admittedly not a million miles away from it

[Paul Calf]

It shares the same goals and uses the same techniques. It's functionally fascism. That's good enough for me.

EDIT: obviously I don't mean that fascism is good.

[Retinend]

Ideas-wise, I kind of regard it as a doomsday cult, but it still has a bloodthirsty, highly authoritarian side to it and the satanic panic stuff definitely has cross-over with historical antisemitic perspectives. The podcast looks into the people who form the movement and not just the ideas though - I think in this case it matters than most of the followers are lonely people, usually middle aged or older, and are not young men full of youthful, radical zeal (like the alt-right are). That's not to say that middle aged or older people cannot be dangerous, but it is to say that they seem to be different in character to classic fascist true believers.

[Paul Calf]

It's just an operation; part of a wider strategy to destroy trust in social, political, economic institutions. It's another tentacle and it's attached to the same beast as the alt-right, as Brexit, as Trump and Putin and Bolsonaro and Orban.

A lot of very greedy, powerful people who want more power and wealth are using ancient tactics to achieve it.

[Retinend]

Go on, who or what is the body of this many-headed hydra?

[marquis_de_sad]

2)When did conspiracy theory becomes so strongly associated with the right? Two decades ago, my friends who were claiming that 9-11 was an inside job were all broadly left wing, and beleived that Bush and pals had done it to furhter U.S. imperialism, and would also link conspiracy theory to a range of progressive ideas- e.g. JFK got bumped off because he was too pro-black , too willing to end the Cold War etc. They also used to forward stuff from Infowars and Prison Planet, websites that seem quite blantantly fascist today. What changed?

You could argue that it started with the reaction to the French Revolution, with people like Abbé Barruel claiming that it was all a secret plot ultimately controlled by the Freemasons and the Illuminati to get rid of the monarchy and the church. That reactionary fear of secret groups plotting to get rid of traditional institutions, especially religious ones, continues all the way down to the present day.

But the core idea of a secret group pulling the strings behind the scenes isn't limited to the right or left. Probably that's because real conspiracies do happen, and powerful people really do try to exert influence over all aspects of our lives. I guess the main distinction would be that the conspiracy theory is almost always overly simplistic. So if someone said QAnon was "just an operation", that's a conspiracy theory, because it implies that the whole thing is being controlled behind the scenes.

I think I always associated conspiracy theorists with the right. Donny from The Big Lebowski, Dale from King of the Hill

The explicitly right wing figure in The Big Lebowski is the Big Lebowski himself — "The bums lost!". Besides being a gun owning vet, I don't think Walter is unambiguously right wing ("Also, Dude, Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian American, please."). He has serious emotional problems from being in Vietnam, but beyond his Nam fixation the only really political thing he says is about the Nihilists: "Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos" — but even that is mainly a comment on the Nihilists being German. That being said he clearly ticks some conspiracy theorist boxes, as I knew you meant to write Walter and not Donny.

[Paul Calf]

Go on, who or what is the body of this many-headed hydra?

A lot of very greedy, powerful people who want more power and wealth are using ancient tactics to achieve it.

[Retinend]

Is this a meta joke where you play the role of Q?

[Pinball]

"The difference between now and then is that then they were arguing about issues of life and death in a political vacuum left by the establishment and a crippling world-wide depression.

Sadly the latter is now. Hopefully this all doesn't end in a world war as it did in the 1930s, but that is a possibility. Social media's hate amplification certainly isn't helping, and indeed is wreaking social havoc...

[Mister Six]

2)When did conspiracy theory becomes so strongly associated with the right? Two decades ago, my friends who were claiming that 9-11 was an inside job were all broadly left wing, and beleived that Bush and pals had done it to furhter U.S. imperialism, and would also link conspiracy theory to a range of progressive ideas- e.g. JFK got bumped off because he was too pro-black , too willing to end the Cold War etc. They also used to forward stuff from Infowars and Prison Planet, websites that seem quite blantantly fascist today. What changed?

I don't think conspiracy theories were ever really beholden to either political wing until recently. Stuff like JFK's shooting - depending on who you want to believe, it was either the CIA doing it because he was too close to Cuba, or Cubans/Soviets doing it because he was too much of a threat to Communism, or the mafia doing it because of his anti-corruption leanings (despite his dad's dodgy criminal dealings), or any number of other angles.

Broadly, conspiracy theories go against those in power, and exactly who is in power depends on the teller: it's the government, it's the men behind the government, it's the Jews, it's the Catholics, it's the Illuminati, it's the lizard-people etc etc.

I think the '90s and that End of History era really helped this in the US, because there were now no longer any looming external threats (Soviets gone, Islamic terrorism relatively ignored by the public, China still a backwards Communist nation that was clearly not going to go anywhere, Japan - the new boss of the world, as China is seen now - collapsed into economic quagmire) and the religious crazies hadn't fully infiltrated politics yet, and so popular culture and Americans as a whole started to look inwards for their threats.

The dodginess of the Reagan administration and the CIA in the '80s obviously planted some seeds there, and The X-Files tapped into that vibe to pull conspiracy theories into the mainstream. But the conspiracies were still mostly directed towards some nebulous "power behind the power", with the JFK assassination probably helping contribute to the idea that the visible government were an irrelevance - or even obstacle - those truly in charge.[nb]There was a great comic in the '90s called The Invisibles, which had the tagline "What if every conspiracy theory you ever heard was true?" It was about anarchist heroes fighting the evil forces of oppression, but interestingly only the royal family turned up as direct symbols of those evil forces, not any particular politicians or political parties. There's a TV adaptation in the works now - I have no idea how that's going to work in this day and age.[/nb]

What changed? I think things began to shift after 9/11, as the conspiracy theorists started to intersect with Islamophobes (pre-existing or newly radicalised) and that in turn began a bleed-through to the world of white separatists and supremacists, which cunts like Alex Jones happily played to, because it meant $$$$$$$$. But the accelerator was pressed down hard when Obama got in.

Barack Hussein Obama! The secret Muslim! Suddenly the distance between the visible government and the shadowy cabal collapsed, and now everything the president said on camera could be analysed for secret messages to those Muslim Jew Catholic lizard Illuminati and their alien controllers! Also, helpfully, it drew a line between REAL AMERICA (white, protestant, guns, thick as pigshit) and MUSLAMIC RAY GUN AMERICA (suspiciously brown, questionable lack of bacon in the fridge, probably making people gay with space waves, college diplomas, haven't even smelled meth).

That was basically critical mass for the right-wing conspiracy nuts, and - aided by the internet - they were rapidly pulling in reams of idiots. Racists attracted by the "brown people secretly ruining your life" message. Conspiracy nuts thrilled that the subtext had now become the text. Both sides drawing from the worst aspects of one another. And spreading further out to the MRAs, gamergaters, incels - all these losers with a chip on their shoulder but no one to redirect their self-loathing onto could now be absolutely certain that it was the Democrats and their child-trafficking pizza parlours that were the problem with the world.

See also: Glinner vs The Trans Agenda, and you know he'd be sucked down that same whirlpool if his vestigial liberal hatred of Trump hadn't seen him shut out of the alt-right club.

Fuck knows where this all ends.

[Mister Six]

^ something to add to my post there: the problems have been exacerbated in both the UK and (especially) the US by the ongoing, party-spanning neoliberal campaign to shift money away from the middle and working classes and into the hands of the rich as fast as possible, while hacking away at any social support whatsoever and assisting corporations in creating an atomised, disempowered working stock with minimal job security.

That means you end up with a lot of people who are broke, or on the verge of going broke, who are desperately looking for some way to feel good about themselves - and so make excellent targets for racist, jingoistic and xenophobic policies that (oh so coincidentally) continue the passage of money up the chain while scapegoating brown and black people.

And those people are exactly the kind of folks who'll also leap all over a conspiracy theory just so they can feel like they have control over and understanding of a chaotic and cruel system that is actively trying to crush them. Add to that right-wing politicians controlling the national debate and the in-built biological response to fear and anger that makes people more conservative[nb]It's true! Look it up.[/nb] and you've got the perfect shitstorm for stuff like this.

[PlanktonSideburns]

The hydra turns out to just be lots of worms

[Retinend]

It is a grassroots movement after all.

[evilcommiedictator]

Just to jump back to The Algorithm for a little, here is a decent example of how YouTube recommends videos based on the videos those types of people watch. I'm going to guess they've just setup accounts for these and watched tons of videos to set them up properly, some are a little strange (Sargon of Akkad in Liberals?!??!?) but it's good to illustrate how differently it work (and the little sneaky videos added in)
http://www.their.tube/

[marquis_de_sad]

Worth pointing out that if you watch a couple of Fortnite videos you'll be recommended a load of Fortnite videos. That site gives the impression of it being an overtly political thing, but it isn't necessarily.

[Bently Sheds]

There's now a subreddit called QAnon Casualties which is a meeting place for people whose families or relationships have been destroyed by Q obsessed loved ones. It's pretty desolate reading.

[Retinend]

Interesting reading indeed. And amidst the posts there are journalists from huge news outlets scouting for stories - there will be a wave of these stories coming and it might do some good for the election to come.

...now read this:


<sub>He doesn't know much about the QAnon conspiracy theory, President Trump told a reporter this month. But "I understand they like me very much, which I appreciate," he added. "I have heard that it is gaining in popularity, and from what I hear, these are people ... that love our country."

The reporter asked a follow-up: "At the crux of this theory is this belief that you are secretly saving the world from this cult of pedophiles and cannibals. Does that sound like ... " She trailed off, apparently at a loss as to where to go from there. "Like something you are behind?"

"Well, I haven't heard that," Trump answered, "but is that supposed to be a bad thing?"

...

pastors say QAnon "is on the rise in their flocks. It is taking on the power of a new religion that's dividing churches and hurting Christian witness" among younger generations. Some pastors Beaty spoke with wouldn't even go on record to discuss Q's sway among their congregants.

That sway isn't surprising, because pastors are at a grave discipleship disadvantage here. "A pastor may preach a wonderful 30-minute sermon that is exegetically sound, theologically rich, and has important applicability to the listener's life, but if that congregant goes home and consumes hours of [QAnon] stuff on YouTube every week, I can tell you what the outcome will be," explained Paul Anleitner, a pastor in the Twin Cities.

After hearing accounts of church splits over QAnon, Anleitner made a video about the movement as a warning to fellow Christians. It's a warning every American church needs to hear right now.</sub>

source:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2020/august-web-only/qanon-is-wolf-in-wolfs-clothing.html
"QAnon Is a Wolf in Wolf's Clothing"
Bonnie Kristian

[touchingcloth]

Love all the exegetically sound, theologically rich stuff, me. Only God Can Judge Me.

[Retinend]

It is funny how Americans slip into marketing-speak, even in religious contexts.

[touchingcloth]

In my experience with a religious family, the Christians love to slip in "exegesis" wherever it's even vaguely relevant, presumably on the assumption that using big words offsets the perception that believing in fairies makes them thick as pig shit. But that would be an ecumenical matter.

[Tony Tony Tony]

In my experience with a religious family, the Christians love to slip in "exegesis" wherever it's even vaguely relevant, presumably on the assumption that using big words offsets the perception that believing in fairies makes them thick as pig shit. But that would be an ecumenical matter.

Would a kick up the arse help?

[Bently Sheds]

pastors say QAnon "is on the rise in their flocks. It is taking on the power of a new religion that's dividing churches and hurting Christian witness" among younger generations.

Cult runners worried about another cult taking their business shocker

[Retinend]

I think that's the wrong takeaway! I have lot of respect for these pastors, who are, after all, the only ones with a realistic chance to deprogram these people. They ought to preach the gospel as hard as they possibly can. Fire and brimstone stuff. God speed!

WIP:

People.

The flock are calling their pastors "sheeple".

Other pastors are passin' on lies.

The lions lyin' down with the lambs like spies.

Pastor: Do you do Q too? Want to renew the poison they spew?

Those who chose to be broken are few

But broken the same will they be, by Q.

[touchingcloth]

Lin-Manuel considers next stage show.

[bgmnts]

Bump but it seems the human pursuit of devoting energy to the most pointless things whilst the world burns is hitting the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/18/qanon-conspiracy-theory-gaining-ground-in-uk-analysis-shows

[Retinend]

"The QAnon conspiracy theory is propelled by an unlikely coalition of spirituality and wellness groups, vigilante %u201Cpaedophile hunter%u201D networks, pre-existing conspiracy forums, local news pages, pro-Brexit campaigners and the far right."

"The conspiracy theory is spreading widely among groups who would not usually be associated with the far right."

late-onset millenarianism: God Trump will purge the world of the evil pedo elites and nothing will be the same again

[ProvanFan]

Some of it just Donald Trump's sex appeal though

[Theremin]

I found this episode of TrashFuture to be a decent potted-guide to the current makeup of Q-UK:

https://podtail.com/podcast/trashfuture/q-dawn-wellness-baz-rides-again-feat-annie-kelly/

Short version: The amorphous and ever-changing mythology of the QAnon story basically allows it to absorb elements from other Conspiracies, creating a far bigger number of potential hopping-on points.

Hence, as Retinend posted, why you're getting Crystal-Healers and Paedo-Hunters in the same subculture.

It's also all so unfalsifiable that the inherent contradictions don't matter so much.

Basically, QAnon is the conpiracy version of the Germ Door from the Simpsons:

[BlodwynPig]

The World through The Simpsons Lens.