MP's have just voted against NHS protections.

[Pingers]

Sure. There is a common cause of seeing demand for inpatient services in terms of failure, and a broad determination that such services should not exist at all.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis there. It's the usual thing of seeing that some people are better off not using a particular service and assuming that applies to everyone else.

[idunnosomename]

[tao of wub]

The UK is following a strategy that is loved by US 'small government' conservatives.  Defund a public service to the point of breaking and then say, 'look it doesn't work, only the 'free market' can save it'.

It is a bit like buying a broken car, refusing to fix it, then using that as a justification to take an uber everywhere, when you could have met your needs by spending a bit more on a decent car and saved a lot of money.[nb]Or using tax to fund a good public transport network[/nb]

Due to underfunding, the NHS spends lots on healthcare where there is a poor outcome.  Oncology has some eye wateringly expensive drugs which may extend life by 6 months.

If we had a government that believed in social health care, we would invest generously in early detection of disease and in nurturing people to adopt preventative life style changes.  I am sure that this would result in much better value for money in healthcare spending and better health for people.  (I appreciate that nurturing people to better lifestyles is hard, but it IS slowly happening, even in UK.  Look at the state of the men you see in 1970's TV and compare them to men of a similar age today.  John Thaw is a good example, in The Sweeny he is only in his early to mid 30's as I remember).

As an example of where we should be going, China has developed a diagnostic technique that can analyse a blood sample and detect several forms of cancer up to 4 years before they would produce symptoms.  That has got to make treatment and outcomes much improved and cheaper?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17316-z#Sec10

No doubt those instrumental in selling us out to Robert Mercer and US health providers will enjoy generous speaking engagements and part time consulting jobs considerably more fruitful than a mere 30 pieces of silver.

[Buelligan]

If we could only grasp the point of living.  Gathering money into the arms of a few is not it.

There is literally no point, IMO, in even bothering with humanity if we can't be humane.  Let's just kill and eat each other's children and leave the planet in peace if we can't find a way of making our society work for the protection, nurturing, love, of all.  Oncology drugs are only eye-wateringly expensive because we allow a system which makes them that way, God didn't decree it and we can change.

[olliebean]

The UK is following a strategy that is loved by US 'small government' conservatives.  Defund a public service to the point of breaking and then say, 'look it doesn't work, only the 'free market' can save it'.

Johnson got a bit ahead of himself and gave the game away when he suggested we should be clapping not just for the NHS itself, but also for the capitalists and financiers "who make our NHS possible."

[tao of wub]

Let's just kill and eat each other's children and leave the planet in peace if we can't find a way of making our society work for the protection, nurturing, love, of all.  Oncology drugs are only eye-wateringly expensive because we allow a system which makes them that way.

I see a growth market for a Recipe Book.

I agree though Buelligan.  The world is imperfect but there are some people and movements which attempt to raise up all up and there are others which are busy trying to reconstruct the world as a misery powered machine for funnelling wealth up to those who already have too much.

For the UK, we have been targeted by the likes of Mercer who have managed to persuade enough people that their future lies in abandoning caring about people and concentrating on making billionaires richer instead.  BOZO has cynically taken power lifted on this rising tide of merde, much of it gushing from his own mouth.

The scientists who brought us insulin treatment tried to prevent it from being crassly exploited.  In recent years, despite therapeutic insulin production being easier than it has ever been it's price per dose in the private market has rapidly increased.  It's almost like an unregulated market only serves the needs of those with a monopoly on production and distribution.

Some drugs though are very very expensive to develop and to manufacture, but they only become insanely expensive because everybody in the supply chain wants to get massively rich.

[BlodwynPig]

yeh, looking forward to paying 200 quid for 3 doses of insulin post-no-deal Brexit. That day is the day I kill.

[Buelligan]

Some drugs though are very very expensive to develop and to manufacture, but they only become insanely expensive because everybody in the supply chain wants to get massively rich.

Precisely.  Until we stop valuing dead money and start giving status to those that support and help others, this disgusting abuse of life and the planet will continue.

[tao of wub]

The brexit faithful have never really grasped that it was never about bringing them any thing of value.  Quite the opposite in fact.  They were just required to bring about the process.

It was just a mechanism by which interested parties could begin dismantling the protections of the EU which have prevented them from running amok and exploiting, e.g. the healthcare sector, for massive profit.

Mercer et al. did a deal with UK conservatives, whereby they get help to stay in power and the politicians agree to let them do whatever the hell they like, be it off shore tax shelters, private healthcare profiteering, selling food with previously banned toxic chemicals on it etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Sure many of us know this.  Robert Mercer has said quite definitively that he despises Socialist Europe, presumably because it is able to defend itself from his plundering business techniques.

Try and explaining it to a leave enthusiast though and they look at you with hate filled eyes, like you are,
1.  A fucking 1st class moron for not understanding how we have 'taken control'
2.  Suggesting that you want to BBQ their first born

As Creme Brulee's Les Mcqueen would say, "It's a shit business".

[momatt]

The original tweet has been deleted and replaced with this:
https://twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1285616598037024768

It's like they're trying to be suspicious on purpose.

[Famous Mortimer]

The brexit faithful have never really grasped that it was never about bringing them any thing of value.  Quite the opposite in fact.  They were just required to bring about the process.

It was just a mechanism by which interested parties could begin dismantling the protections of the EU which have prevented them from running amok and exploiting, e.g. the healthcare sector, for massive profit.

Mercer et al. did a deal with UK conservatives, whereby they get help to stay in power and the politicians agree to let them do whatever the hell they like, be it off shore tax shelters, private healthcare profiteering, selling food with previously banned toxic chemicals on it etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Sure many of us know this.  Robert Mercer has said quite definitively that he despises Socialist Europe, presumably because it is able to defend itself from his plundering business techniques.

Try and explaining it to a leave enthusiast though and they look at you with hate filled eyes, like you are,
1.  A fucking 1st class moron for not understanding how we have 'taken control'
2.  Suggesting that you want to BBQ their first born

As Creme Brulee's Les Mcqueen would say, "It's a shit business".

That's only because they then turned round and voted Tory. A non-EU Britain with Corbyn in charge wouldn't have had all the anti-union, pro-privatisation EU rules to fight against. The idea that the EU is socialist is every bit as big a lie as the Tories caring about people.

[tao of wub]

The idea that the EU is socialist is every bit as big a lie as the Tories caring about people.

From a US perspective the EU is  Marxist or similar.

It is a big place and there is a lot of variation allowed between member states.  Let us not forget though that many EU countries offer excellent cheap or affordable health care, education, public transport, along with employment protections, rent protections, scientific collaborations, environmental protections holiday leave, maternity and paternity leave[nb]This is not an exhaustive "what have the Romans ever done for us list" as I am on my 'phone but you get the idea[/nb].  It is NOT perfect but it is a hell of a lot more capable at looking after its citizens than the USA.

I understand tertiary education in Germany is still free and that is for any person from any country.

Those who engineered brexit were never going to aid JC getting to be PM..  We now find UK in the grip of the Tories.  Proof will be in the pudding.  Personally I know where I would rather be.

Others are free to enjoy our new masters as they wish.  Shame they have ruled to destroy the power of my passport to let me work and travel in the EU though.  It is like they want to keep me here to listen to my complaints..hmm.

[tao of wub]

Not going to write about EU again other than to say I have lived and worked both in UK and continental EU and I know which was better for me on many measures.

[Johnny Yesno]

The idea that the EU is socialist is every bit as big a lie as the Tories caring about people.

C'mon now, lexiter. No one's claiming the EU is socialist. Just that leaving is a bad idea.

[tao of wub]

Robert Mercer has said quite definitively that he despises Socialist Europe

I thought it was clear in context that I was referring to Robert Mercer's views.  This is a man who regards Hillary Clinton as a socialist FFS!  To quote an article from Vanity Fair, where a source close to Mercer discusses Mercer's backing of Trump and views on Hillary,

"Trump was just Bob's play against Hillary," the former Renaissance executive said. "Bob said she and her husband were murderers who would destroy the country. He thought she was an evil person and a socialist."

The article, which talks about how Mercer regrets his political spending as a bad investment:-

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/06/why-the-mercers-trumps-biggest-2016-backers-have-bailed-on-him

Another on the Mercers support from Trump from 2017

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/no-one-knows-what-the-powerful-mercers-really-want/514529/

A NYT piece which mentions his funding of groups linked to far right nationalism in Sweden for example.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/world/europe/sweden-immigration-nationalism.html

There are plenty more pieces about this reclusive billionaire and his right wing libertarian views.

As Mercer created Cambridge Analytica, and was instrumental in bringing the UK into its current state, I feel, at least an appreciation of his views and meddling are warranted in any discussion of UK politics these days.

So he now regrets his political spending as he did not get sufficient return on investment from Trump?  Would have been nice if he had kept out of world politics in the first place and just enjoyed his oversize cash pile.

[Flouncer]

That's only because they then turned round and voted Tory. A non-EU Britain with Corbyn in charge wouldn't have had all the anti-union, pro-privatisation EU rules to fight against. The idea that the EU is socialist is every bit as big a lie as the Tories caring about people.

This is kind of infuriating, man. It seems to be the standard Lexiter response to what's happened - *shrugs* "Well people shouldn't have voted Tory." You shouldn't have voted for something that was always going to play into the hands of the hard right, and which has rather predictably led to the utter destruction of the left in mainstream politics. You totally got the cart before the horse - get the left in control first! This was always going to be a helping hand for the Tories and a kick in the balls for Labour. Lefties who voted for Brexit chose to ignore this because they felt like this was their only chance to leave, and in their fervour to do so (for reasons that I'm ultimately sympathetic with) they have ended up sowing the seeds of their own downfall.

It wasn't a simple decision for me to make; I had to ask myself how I was going to vote. I accepted the main Lexiter arguments - I'm no fan of the EU; I've been reading about how dodgy and bent it is in Private Eye since I was fifteen - but ultimately I came to the conclusion that vulnerable people were likely to suffer in the event of Brexit, so I voted pragmatically rather than on principle. Not something I usually do, but given the gravity of the situation and the potential effect on certain groups of people who always get trodden on when things get rough, I decided that I couldn't really vote any other way. I'm not meaning to be harsh but I feel like Lexiters must have realised there was a good chance this was all going to go tits up, but so hell bent were they on taking thier chance to leave, they just thought "Fuck it."

[Huxleys Babkins]

It was very easy for me.

Who was pushing hardest for it? The far right.
Who was going to be in power to implement it? The right.
Were any of the Leave campaign leaflets pushing any leftist arguments? No.
Was every Leave leaflet, poster and interview brimming with racism and Little England exceptionalism? Yes.

Christ, imagine going into a polling station, putting a cross in the box that John Redwood and Nigel Farage told you to and thinking "yes, this will absolutely help the socialist movement".

[evilcommiedictator]

There was a good discussion on TrashFuture about the pros and cons of "Change from Within" in the EU, the UK as a big partner has more influence trying to change it than not. However they'd be pushing shit uphill, even with the support of everyone who has been screwed over by the Germans and the French keeping their export incomes up.
But also, what better way to justify wholesale change of neoliberal policy than to restructure everything after brexit? That's without having to also try and take on the EU at the same time.

[Buelligan]

I think people also need to think about their own (British) behaviour over decades when it came to EU elections.  That's right, they don't matter.  Most people ignored them and let any fuck have the gig because they didn't see it as important.  Took no interest in policies, nothing.  Then they didn't like the way they were told the EU went so they decided to help destroy it, without thinking much about it, without thinking at all about the people that did care and did need it.  Fucking hell.  I expect someone'll get you to do it to your NHS soon.

[Zetetic]

A non-EU Britain with Corbyn in charge wouldn't have had all the anti-union, pro-privatisation EU rules to fight against.

Why not? Not being a member state doesn't make the EU and its other member states disappear. It just changes the levers they have closest to hand.

[tao of wub]

My impression is that the UK never really took participation in the EU political process that seriously.  If it has been anything like our woeful negotiating attempts for a deal in recent years, I can only imagine that our representatives operated with a sub-par level of skill.  It seems most likely that all the important discussions took place over restaurant tables after the annoying British had gone home for the evening.  Watching Farage braying on and on, disruptive and spewing lies at work was always cringeworthy.  Political knowledge and engagement in the citizens of continental EU is, in my experience much higher than it is in UK.

Private Eye has made much of French and German machinations manipulating the EU for their own trade benefit.  This is something that EVERY country tries to do if they have influence.  France and Germany are not natural allies.  The success of their manufacturing has a lot to do with a robust educational system and the respect that they give to workers who, in the UK are treated as nothings.  Germany in particular gives a lot of respect to technicals, so it is no surprise that they have, for instance the most robustly functional chemical industry in Europe and a huge motor vehicle manufacturing industry for instance.  Success or failure can be achieved at a country level.  Italy always did well on a number of high end fashion and mechanical exports.  Sometime after the millennium, companies decided to move production to asia, seeing an immediate drop in quality and desirability.  Marzocchi suffered and eventually was sold off as a result of this, for instance.

As a technical worker in the UK you are viewed as a fungible nothing.  Terrible salaries, very little respect and blocked from real advancement, zero job security.  This is not true of every company, but, the general feeling is that there is something 'unclean' about people who are not pure management in UK.  Thatcher only wanted money wizards in smart suits pulling in the cash with dodgy deals as the way forward.  This dream of UK as a financial services behemoth is still pursued by the tories.  Despite that these people have screwed us all over multiple times.

To get somewhere back on thread Britain is in a very tricky position now of its own making.  There is certainly going to be a 'fire sale' of whatever assets the gov. can lay its grubby hands on and a deep abandonment of ethics in the scramble to attract money.

Unfortunately, a big part of UK export is weapons.  I am sure Bozo will be looking for willing buyers in unstable regions.  I am also sure that the NHS as we know it will be gone in 5 years.  Farage was going on about having to scrap free healthcare ages ago.  The NHS also runs on immigrants.  There are more healthcare workers trained in Malawi in the NHS than there are in Malawi!

It will be pushed as the price for giving the people the brexit that they wanted.  A regrettable but necessary quid pro quo.

[chveik]

tbf the turnout in most other countries isn't very high either

https://europarl.europa.eu/election-results-2019/en/turnout/

[tao of wub]

I can't dispute that there are some woeful figures for turnout.  There are some pretty high numbers up there too.

UK has a problem in that generally those who do vote are boomers, so they get to choose who is running things.

My view is undoubtably biased because I have not performed a proper randomised sample.  I have just had more interesting conversations with engaged people when in other countries than I have in, specifically England.  Generally they seem to have a better grasp what is going on in Europe than people in UK do.