Author Topic: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]  (Read 1271 times)

dr_christian_troy

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Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« on: July 12, 2020, 12:00:51 PM »
I’m saving Discovery and Picard for a later time, but having now dipped between Enterprise, DS9 and Voyager (having now completed TNG), I think I’m going to settle on DS9 for now.

I’m up to Episode 7, which sees the return of Q and Vash. I like John De Lancie a lot, but Q in this episode is far less likeable than when he appears in TNG. The toxicity of him not letting go of Vash is pretty horrible.

Bashir appears to be the shagger of DS9, although unlike Riker he tries his luck constantly instead of hooking up with anyone (so far, anyways). I think Odo is shaping up (no pun intended) as one of my favourite characters in the Star Trek franchise overall.

My most recent dip into Voyager was Ex Post Facto, where Paris is accused of murder. Isn’t this just a variation of the TNG episode A Matter Of Perspective, where Riker is accused of sexual assault and murder?

EDIT: ...and the DS9 episode Dax in which yet another Federation officer is on trial for murder, there’s a shot of the city where Odo goes to investigate and it’s exactly the same shot used for a different city in Ex Post Facto! Plus the trial involves an inference of a Federation officer having an affair with a dead man’s wife AGAIN
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 12:56:42 PM by dr_christian_troy »

dr_christian_troy

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2020, 01:17:31 PM »
The only thing I’m finding grating with DS9 so far is the surprising amount of misogyny from main or regular characters. In the history of Star Trek, it isn’t surprising at all - but post-TNG (which in some ways more than others evolved as the series went on), it still seems a bit backward.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 01:36:47 PM by dr_christian_troy »

samadriel

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2020, 03:29:49 PM »
Edit bug

dr_christian_troy

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2020, 01:58:36 PM »
The only thing I’m finding grating with DS9 so far is the surprising amount of misogyny from main or regular characters. In the history of Star Trek, it isn’t surprising at all - but post-TNG (which in some ways more than others evolved as the series went on), it still seems a bit backward.

It gets worse. It pushes into really uncomfortable for the late DS9 ep Profit and Lace.

Blumf

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2020, 04:48:08 PM »
Are you guys just talking about the Ferengi's backwards attitude to women? Because that's clearly portrayed as a bad thing throughout the show, and there's a long arc about that being changed.

That Profit and Lace episode however can be seen as very dodgy in our trans aware times, however.

There's an episode where we see some Cardassian engineers, who tend to be female, and have a snooty attitude to men attempting anything too technical. As usual, O'Brien must suffer.

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2020, 05:18:02 PM »
Definitely it is through Ferengi eyes but it is still uncomfortable at times (sometimes uncomfortable in the right way dramatically).

Profit and Lace I specifically mentioned for how it has Quark cross a line that he absolutely never should. Yes, he is a profit-hungry thief. Yes, he is a misogynist (albeit largely driven by his own people's prejudices). He shouldn't in my eyes be pressuring a woman to wank his ears off. The trans stuff is off in the same way anything in the 90s would be but given that Quark is regularly portrayed as being just a little more progressive than his people would dictate, it feels immensely off.

Don't get me wrong, I adore DS9 but that one scene really impacted my view of Quark. For a show which manages shades of grey in characters so well, it is a startling aberration.

Ambient Sheep

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2020, 05:41:42 PM »
He shouldn't in my eyes be pressuring a woman to wank his ears off [...] given that Quark is regularly portrayed as being just a little more progressive than his people would dictate, it feels immensely off.

Don't get me wrong, I adore DS9 but that one scene really impacted my view of Quark. For a show which manages shades of grey in characters so well, it is a startling aberration.

*Now* I know which one you're talking about.  Yup, that was really sleazy and quite startling.  Like you, I felt it very out of character.

dr_christian_troy

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2020, 09:34:48 PM »
I’m on Season 1 of DS9 - “The Storyteller”, in which O’Brien is considered to be the prophet of an alien community. I can’t take it seriously at all because O’Brien looks so gormless and depressed.

Credit to the child actor who plays Nog though - he really does the Ferengi accent and wordings of things very well.

Wonderful Butternut

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2020, 09:40:51 PM »
Sorry if I'm shattering the illusion, but Aaron Eisenberg who played Nog was about 24 at the start of DS9. He was just short.

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2020, 09:43:25 PM »


Credit to the child actor who plays Nog though - he really does the Ferengi accent and wordings of things very well.

Aron Eisenberg was 24 during Season 1. He sadly passed away rather suddenly last year.

He was great. Nog gets better and better as the show goes on.


dr_christian_troy

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2020, 09:49:01 PM »
Aron Eisenberg was 24 during Season 1. He sadly passed away rather suddenly last year.

He was great. Nog gets better and better as the show goes on.

Ah, my apologies - a great actor at any age. Sad to hear of his passing. I get the impression he’s a character who actually gets the opportunity to evolve over time.[1]
 1. Unlike Wesley Crusher who turned up once in Season 7 only to run off with the Groomer Traveller.

dr_christian_troy

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2020, 10:51:19 PM »
I’ve just started on the Rumpelstiltskin episode. That’s Michael J Anderson isn’t it? Fuck sake.

Also he clearly just said AH THE LOCAL CUNT STABULARY

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2020, 11:05:48 PM »
Definitely it is through Ferengi eyes but it is still uncomfortable at times (sometimes uncomfortable in the right way dramatically).

Profit and Lace I specifically mentioned for how it has Quark cross a line that he absolutely never should. Yes, he is a profit-hungry thief. Yes, he is a misogynist (albeit largely driven by his own people's prejudices). He shouldn't in my eyes be pressuring a woman to wank his ears off. The trans stuff is off in the same way anything in the 90s would be but given that Quark is regularly portrayed as being just a little more progressive than his people would dictate, it feels immensely off.

Don't get me wrong, I adore DS9 but that one scene really impacted my view of Quark. For a show which manages shades of grey in characters so well, it is a startling aberration.

I think you could argue DS9 did sometimes feel a little fan servicy in the way it treated the Ferengi and the Klingons, a little too willing to look past negative aspects.

In general though I would say its a bit more progressive than TNG in that the female characters aren't a doctor and a therapist, there a scientist and a hard headed second in command.

Zetetic

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 11:08:57 PM »
Is DS9 worth a thread split?

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2020, 11:12:34 PM »
If I remember correctly Armin Shimerman hated the script, and had a bad time filming Profit and Lace as the producers couldn't decide between it being an "authentic" episode where Quark learns empathy, or a typical comedy Ferengi episode. I think he had good intentions with his performance, but their was no way he was rescuing it.

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2020, 11:13:59 PM »
I think you could argue DS9 did sometimes feel a little fan servicy in the way it treated the Ferengi and the Klingons, a little too willing to look past negative aspects.

In general though I would say its a bit more progressive than TNG in that the female characters aren't a doctor and a therapist, there a scientist and a hard headed second in command.

Progressive until you get to the mirror universe episodes...

...there is that fan service again!


But yeah Kira and Dax do subvert the usual expectations of women in Trek. They even manage to add a new layer to Lwaxana Troi.

Sexism isn't a stick I'd particularly beat DS9 with. Just a minor criticism of the very few I have for the show. And it does excel in being socially progressive in many other areas.

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2020, 11:41:03 PM »
I’m on Season 1 of DS9 - “The Storyteller”, in which O’Brien is considered to be the prophet of an alien community.

"The Storyteller" has one of my favourite Trek trivia facts, which I read in a magazine 25 years ago and never saw again. Apparently during one scene Bashir had to eat some alien fruit, and kiwi was the fruit that was chosen to stand in. They had to do something like 20 takes, at which point Siddig had given himself citric acid burns inside his mouth from all the juice.

Also, he and Meaney used to go out once a week during production and get properly twatted together. Bless.

dr_christian_troy

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2020, 11:55:21 PM »
Is DS9 worth a thread split?

I was anxious to drown the TV forum in Trek threads (with a new one having now popped up for Lower Decks), but if there’s no objection I’d be happy to start a new thread or go about creating a split thread, although in all sincerity it’s been a while so I’m not sure if it’s something we do manually or if we need to kindly ask Barry. Happy to do whichever’s best.[1]
 1. Or seeing if there was a possibility of having a sub-subforum / child board titled Trekked & Protoned for all Trek-related and general sci-fi threads
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 12:18:24 AM by dr_christian_troy »

dr_christian_troy

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2020, 04:02:01 AM »
Season 2 is at a far better pace. A riveting 3-part opener.

A lot more humour injected into it too (for better or worse), as well as good balance of pathos. Although having reached the halfway point, a bit less Quark and a bit more Odo would be fine with me.

daf

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2020, 07:08:51 AM »
When's the sodding blu-ray set of DS9 coming out?

It's holding up my re-watch of TNG as, having seen all the episodes several times on TV previously, I've always fancied attempting them both together (in electric HDreams) - following O'Brien and whatnot - fusing it all into one huge Trek-blob.

Chronology

. . . Actually, from that chronology, it looks like I also need Voyager . . . Balls! - I'm going to have to spring for the DVDs, aren't I !

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2020, 08:14:31 AM »
I'm guessing we'll never see DS9 in HD/Bluray as the TNG release wasn't successful enough and the cost would likely be significantly higher given the greater amount of FX work and the shift to CGI.

Progressive until you get to the mirror universe episodes...

...there is that fan service again!

But yeah Kira and Dax do subvert the usual expectations of women in Trek. They even manage to add a new layer to Lwaxana Troi.

Sexism isn't a stick I'd particularly beat DS9 with. Just a minor criticism of the very few I have for the show. And it does excel in being socially progressive in many other areas.

You could argue I spose the mirror DS9 episodes are as close as you'll get to the formula for current Trek but even then it was really Vistors performance that made them take off rather than just recasting all the women as sex slave girls.

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2020, 09:42:36 AM »
I'm guessing we'll never see DS9 in HD/Bluray as the TNG release wasn't successful enough and the cost would likely be significantly higher given the greater amount of FX work and the shift to CGI.

Pretty much this, I'm afraid.  The producers of the very good What We Left Behind documentary about DS9 last year remastered a few scenes in HD, with the show's original director of photography, and it looked absolutely stunning.  But that, sadly, looks about as much as we'll ever get.

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2020, 10:04:13 AM »
There is still a little hope. The SFX  (at least the model shots) still exist and can be re-rendered and were built with more detail so would not require too much work when moving to HD.

purlieu

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2020, 02:41:04 PM »
Starting this tonight. As I know it becomes somewhat serialised in the later series, and as I've only seen scattered episodes over the years, I'm a little wary of posting in this thread in case of spoilers, and it'd be a bit much to ask all discussion from a 27 year old TV show to be spoilered just for my sake... but I'll probably give some thoughts about it all as I go along, maybe a few episodes at a time.

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2020, 03:54:54 PM »
Please do, I'm sure it will be fascinating. :)

purlieu

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2020, 09:19:31 PM »
Well, Emissary made more sense this time than on first watch. Whenever I next watch Star Trek I'll try and do broadcast order, so O'Brien's Enterprise scene has a touch more weight to it, rather than not seeing him for a couple of months and then him suddenly departing. Funny how he's suddenly turned into LaForge as soon as he's onboard DS9.

I can't say all of the performances were brilliant, with the actors obviously yet to really know the characters or their chemistry. Overall it seems like a good range of characters covered, though. And there are loads of different plot strands set up here that will obviously be coming back at a later date, which is nice as obviously that approach is kind of important on a station. If it were all completely self-contained stories I think the show would really suffer. Sisko is given a good story here, and it's for the best as his opening brooding character isn't too likeable.

Good start, then.

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2020, 10:49:29 PM »
Funny how he's suddenly turned into LaForge as soon as he's onboard DS9.

I love how when he's not on board the greatest ship in the universe, O'Brien's revealed to be vastly overqualified. 'Yeah I can field strip a photon torpedo with a teaspoon. My last job? Concierge'

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2020, 08:55:09 AM »
I like how when he leaves the Enterprise Picard comments on O'Brien's favourite transporter room.

'Yes captain, this was the best of the beige work areas... it was the only room I was allowed in... it doesn't even have a water cooler'

Mister Six

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2020, 06:49:52 PM »
It's classic "boss desperately trying to think of things to say to departing employee he knows nothing about".

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