Author Topic: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]  (Read 26909 times)

purlieu

  • Gertrude Stein said that's enough.
Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #510 on: March 23, 2021, 06:08:26 PM »
Here we go, then...

purlieu

  • Gertrude Stein said that's enough.
Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #511 on: March 23, 2021, 08:24:10 PM »
What You Leave Behind. Well, that was never going to be an All Good Things style ending. I was expecting something bittersweet, and it was definitely there. Tension, victory, sadness, humour, all there in spades. It was nice that Odo effectively ended the war single-handedly, and his departure was really sad for me. My girlfriend was most upset about Bashir and O'Brien "breaking up". The utter ruins that Cardassia was left in, and Garak's despair, were difficult to really take in, due to the moral complexity given to them over the whole show. I like how we didn't see a single Romulan in the episode at all, despite their importance to the war.
The Bajor stuff felt very slightly undercooked. I would have liked to see the Pah Wraiths feel a little more threatening. Still, good to see Dukat and Winn get their deserved endings.
Given how serialised the show had become by the end, the big finale tour felt earned. I really enjoyed that.



Some final thoughts on Deep Space Nine, then.
The first two seasons were a real mixed bag, and although I enjoyed them, it was mostly as a sitcom. Utterly silly and generally entertaining, but without much overall drive. The third season picked up a little, with the Dominion plot entering properly, and improvement in the writing. The fourth was another improvement in overall storytelling, although I felt a touch disappointed by the slowing down of the Dominion plot. The final three seasons were really captivating, however, and other than the occasional dud, were exceptional quality.
The characters followed a similar trajectory: early on, only Sisko, O'Brien and Odo felt particularly sympathetic, but by the fifth season, every character was really likeable and fleshed out. Other than Jake, who ultimately played no importance in the show overall other than to be the kid. And even then, Nog took over that role.
I liked that a number of aspects were left open for potential future exploration: just how does Cardassia recover from being decimated by the Dominion? Do the Romulans stay on good terms with the Federation and Klingons? Does Sisko get back, and when? Had the creators decided to do a show set post-Nemesis instead of focusing so heavily on filling in the Federation's back story, maybe we would have found out. Maybe there's some stuff explained in Picard, but I'm a long way off that, so as it is... ah well. Interesting speculation.
How does the show fit with the other series? Well, I still think TNG is a better Star Trek series. For all the stuff I loved about DS9, there was very little sense of wonder. Other than the early looming threat of the Dominion, the Gamma Quadrant offers comparatively little in the way of exploration and discovery. I love the awe of finding something new and impossible to comprehend that the first two versions of the show had. If I'm going to dip into a series for a few good sci-fi stories, I'll go with TNG every time. That said, the final four seasons, as a run in themselves, are my favourites in the whole franchise so far (unlikely to be beaten, if we're being honest). The mix of characters, moral ambiguity and gripping storytelling in the second half of the show is utterly superb. Overall, there are also just fewer dull filler episodes than either TOS or TNG. My season-by-season ratings:

TOS1: 7.34482759
TOS2: 6.96153846
TOS3: 6.75
TOSF: 7.67
TNG1: 6.88
TNG2: 7.36
TNG3: 7.92307692
TNG4: 8.03846154
TNG5: 7.96153846
TNG6: 7.88461538
TNG7: 7.76
TNGF: 7.75
DS91: 7.57894737
DS92: 7.46153846
DS93: 7.76923077
DS94: 8.16
DS95: 8.19230769
DS96: 8.19230769
DS97: 8.4


Season six would have been my favourite if it weren't for Profit and Lace dragging the whole thing down.

And my favourite and least favourite episodes:
Duet
The Visitor
Broken Link
Trials and Tribble-ations
Far Beyond the Stars
In the Pale Moonlight
His Way
Shadows and Symbols
It's Only a Paper Moon
What You Leave Behind

The Passenger
Move Along Home
Second Sight
Crossover
Prophet Motive
Ferengi Love Songs
Profit and Lace
Prodigal Daughter
Field of Fire

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #512 on: March 23, 2021, 08:46:38 PM »
Really enjoyed this thread; a lot of new insights into a show I love. Have a much more sentimental view nowadays, Vic's song really hit me the last time I watched, it's a moment that's gone and that's incredibly sad.

I never got on with the Pah Wraith subplot. That the wormhole aliens can be good and evil is entirely uninteresting, especially as its the only nailable trait they have outside of their inscrutableness. I think the writers got too obsessed with Dukat being the anti-Sisko, everything that needed to be said about that relationship ended during The Waltz.

The Cardassians turning on the rest of the Dominion will always be a great moment, shame the cost.

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #513 on: March 23, 2021, 08:55:11 PM »
Great thread, Purlieu, and I'm pleased you enjoyed the show so much.

purlieu

  • Gertrude Stein said that's enough.
Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #514 on: March 23, 2021, 09:15:58 PM »
The Cardassians turning on the rest of the Dominion will always be a great moment
There were a few whoops of joy here during all that. When the Dominion decided to destroy a Cardassian city, I knew that would be the tipping point. They're far too proud a race to let that happen.
Great thread, Purlieu, and I'm pleased you enjoyed the show so much.
Oh, me too. Near the start of the third season I was beginning to worry I wasn't going to get what all the hype was about.

Glad people have enjoyed my trawl through it. It's been nice sharing my thoughts. My girlfriend and I are going to finish up our Arrowverse marathon in the next couple of weeks, and then we'll be starting Voyager, which will be interesting. So I'll be bumping that thread when we get going.

Wonderful Butternut

  • Summer Night City!
Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #515 on: March 23, 2021, 09:21:23 PM »
Can FINALLY post this. How DS9 should've ended:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VvqbpLnL0&ab_channel=JohnPhung



DS9 was excellent, especially seasons 3-6 which can stand shoulder to shoulder with any Star Trek made. I personally I think it went down a bit in Season 7. Worf / Ezri pissed me off, I really wanted someone to slap Worf's shit over it. I just felt they tried to pack too many plot twists into the wrap up of the war. The Breen, the Defiant being destroyed (only to be replaced within a couple of episodes), Damar rebelling, the Founder genociding the Cardassians, Gowron needing to bumped off etc. And a lot of the non-war episodes (Take Me Out to the Holosuite, Prodigal Daugher, Badda Bing etc.) are very forgettable for me. Season 7 is still good, but there's a noticeable quality drop imo.

Really the only bad thing I can say about DS9 is people throwing up Section 31 and the Dominion War as rationale for there being nothing wrong with the Grimdark Trek we get now.

I also liked ambiguous antagonist almost encroaching into antihero territory Gul Dukat from seasons 2-5 a lot more than bad guy Dukat, and eventually insane Pah Wraith worshipping Dukat, from 6 & 7. But I do understand that it made perfect sense within the overall narrative for him to be the final big bad for Sisko to defeat.

oy vey

  • [sic]
Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #516 on: March 23, 2021, 10:26:50 PM »
^ Ha. Fucking marvelous outtake.

Thanks purlieu for giving me an excuse to go through DS9 again, not that I ever need one. Honestly, I prefer DS9 to TNG and TOS but it's completely subjective and I would not argue if you think the opposite. I even understand your view. Nothing gives tingles like "Space, the final frontier... these are the voyages... etc." and good point on the gamma quadrant being relatively undeveloped. We'll have to leave that for another series. DS9 season 3-7 arc-storytelling, ensemble casting, inspired character-led writing, etc. is what makes it uniquely special, though very un-Trek. Life is full of paradoxes innit.

On the finale, I loved it but the Sisko/Dukat ending was a little straightforward. And shades of the book of the dead from Evil Dead. Where's Ash for fuck sake? And no closing scene between Ben and Jake, which slightly annoyed me but those are the only non-perfects for me. The rest is superb. Vic singing us out. Bashir/Miles/Garak. Odo saying goodbye to Kira, donning the tux. Gets me every time.

See you in the Delta Quadrant I guess.

p.s. Just found this from the doc... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJLzPxH9CIY

purlieu

  • Gertrude Stein said that's enough.
Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #517 on: March 23, 2021, 10:54:50 PM »
Can FINALLY post this. How DS9 should've ended:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VvqbpLnL0&ab_channel=JohnPhung

Marvellous, worth the wait!
Thanks purlieu for giving me an excuse to go through DS9 again, not that I ever need one. Honestly, I prefer DS9 to TNG and TOS but it's completely subjective and I would not argue if you think the opposite. I even understand your view. Nothing gives tingles like "Space, the final frontier... these are the voyages... etc." and good point on the gamma quadrant being relatively undeveloped. We'll have to leave that for another series. DS9 season 3-7 arc-storytelling, ensemble casting, inspired character-led writing, etc. is what makes it uniquely special, though very un-Trek. Life is full of paradoxes innit.
We're pretty much on the same page, there. As a show watched start-to-finish, it's a much more satisfying experience than TNG. TNG is the better Star Trek, but DS9 is quite possibly the better programme overall.

Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #518 on: March 23, 2021, 11:38:28 PM »
So many charming little bits from that DS9 doc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VtW1-7Jhig


MojoJojo

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #519 on: March 24, 2021, 11:51:29 AM »
I'm way behind the thread but just got through the following episodes:
Statistical Probabilities/Waltz/Who Mourns for Morn?

Waltz and Who Mourns for Morn both display some of the same problems that Statistical Probabilities has. Waltz has a big speech about how Gul Dukat is pure evil, when he's plainly mentally ill, even if it's "TV" mental illness. I guess my main issue is really the rather poor conception of what pure evil is, rather than Banquo's ghost version of mental illness.

Who Mourns for Morn has a a new female character - oh and what a surprise they're sexually aggressive. I note that around this time seven of nine turns up in Voyager. DS9 does seem to have a troubled relationship with sex - at the start they try to have relationship stuff which includes some sex going on. You can imagine TV execs thinking this will broaden the appeal to women. Then they seem to stop bothering with that for a while (except for the completely lacking in chemistry Jax/Worf thing). Then it gets to 97/98 and the execs have obviously changed their mind about trying to appeal to women and are all "send in the tits".

Malcy

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Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #520 on: March 25, 2021, 10:56:43 AM »
Rewatched the documentary last night. I'm sure they said they were going to release loads more footage from it but it's never surfaced. I had the same thought after watching it again last night in that there is so much more they could have covered.

MojoJojo

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  • Between a cow college and a MetaLab.
Re: Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]
« Reply #521 on: March 25, 2021, 11:08:44 AM »
Far Beyond the Stars. That was brilliant. At first I feared it would just feel like 'explaining racism to white people', which often comes across clunky and unnatural, but as it got going it was incredibly powerful. Throw in the joy of seeing many of the main cast out of makeup (and Quark being so utterly un-Quark), and it all tying in with the Prophets story... yeah, superb stuff.

It's good. I think I've been on the internet a bit too much, because I couldn't help wondering whether it was problematic that Sisko had human-washed all his alien friends in his vision about racism.

Who was the artist? (yes I could google)

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