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March 28, 2024, 10:43:16 PM

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Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]

Started by dr_christian_troy, July 12, 2020, 12:00:51 PM

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purlieu


purlieu

What You Leave Behind. Well, that was never going to be an All Good Things style ending. I was expecting something bittersweet, and it was definitely there. Tension, victory, sadness, humour, all there in spades. It was nice that Odo effectively ended the war single-handedly, and his departure was really sad for me. My girlfriend was most upset about Bashir and O'Brien "breaking up". The utter ruins that Cardassia was left in, and Garak's despair, were difficult to really take in, due to the moral complexity given to them over the whole show. I like how we didn't see a single Romulan in the episode at all, despite their importance to the war.
The Bajor stuff felt very slightly undercooked. I would have liked to see the Pah Wraiths feel a little more threatening. Still, good to see Dukat and Winn get their deserved endings.
Given how serialised the show had become by the end, the big finale tour felt earned. I really enjoyed that.



Some final thoughts on Deep Space Nine, then.
The first two seasons were a real mixed bag, and although I enjoyed them, it was mostly as a sitcom. Utterly silly and generally entertaining, but without much overall drive. The third season picked up a little, with the Dominion plot entering properly, and improvement in the writing. The fourth was another improvement in overall storytelling, although I felt a touch disappointed by the slowing down of the Dominion plot. The final three seasons were really captivating, however, and other than the occasional dud, were exceptional quality.
The characters followed a similar trajectory: early on, only Sisko, O'Brien and Odo felt particularly sympathetic, but by the fifth season, every character was really likeable and fleshed out. Other than Jake, who ultimately played no importance in the show overall other than to be the kid. And even then, Nog took over that role.
I liked that a number of aspects were left open for potential future exploration: just how does Cardassia recover from being decimated by the Dominion? Do the Romulans stay on good terms with the Federation and Klingons? Does Sisko get back, and when? Had the creators decided to do a show set post-Nemesis instead of focusing so heavily on filling in the Federation's back story, maybe we would have found out. Maybe there's some stuff explained in Picard, but I'm a long way off that, so as it is... ah well. Interesting speculation.
How does the show fit with the other series? Well, I still think TNG is a better Star Trek series. For all the stuff I loved about DS9, there was very little sense of wonder. Other than the early looming threat of the Dominion, the Gamma Quadrant offers comparatively little in the way of exploration and discovery. I love the awe of finding something new and impossible to comprehend that the first two versions of the show had. If I'm going to dip into a series for a few good sci-fi stories, I'll go with TNG every time. That said, the final four seasons, as a run in themselves, are my favourites in the whole franchise so far (unlikely to be beaten, if we're being honest). The mix of characters, moral ambiguity and gripping storytelling in the second half of the show is utterly superb. Overall, there are also just fewer dull filler episodes than either TOS or TNG. My season-by-season ratings:

TOS1: 7.34482759
TOS2: 6.96153846
TOS3: 6.75
TOSF: 7.67
TNG1: 6.88
TNG2: 7.36
TNG3: 7.92307692
TNG4: 8.03846154
TNG5: 7.96153846
TNG6: 7.88461538
TNG7: 7.76
TNGF: 7.75
DS91: 7.57894737
DS92: 7.46153846
DS93: 7.76923077
DS94: 8.16
DS95: 8.19230769
DS96: 8.19230769
DS97: 8.4


Season six would have been my favourite if it weren't for Profit and Lace dragging the whole thing down.

And my favourite and least favourite episodes:
Duet
The Visitor
Broken Link
Trials and Tribble-ations
Far Beyond the Stars
In the Pale Moonlight
His Way
Shadows and Symbols
It's Only a Paper Moon
What You Leave Behind

The Passenger
Move Along Home
Second Sight
Crossover
Prophet Motive
Ferengi Love Songs
Profit and Lace
Prodigal Daughter
Field of Fire

Poobum

Really enjoyed this thread; a lot of new insights into a show I love. Have a much more sentimental view nowadays, Vic's song really hit me the last time I watched, it's a moment that's gone and that's incredibly sad.

I never got on with the Pah Wraith subplot. That the wormhole aliens can be good and evil is entirely uninteresting, especially as its the only nailable trait they have outside of their inscrutableness. I think the writers got too obsessed with Dukat being the anti-Sisko, everything that needed to be said about that relationship ended during The Waltz.

The Cardassians turning on the rest of the Dominion will always be a great moment, shame the cost.

crankshaft

Great thread, Purlieu, and I'm pleased you enjoyed the show so much.

purlieu

Quote from: Poobum on March 23, 2021, 08:46:38 PMThe Cardassians turning on the rest of the Dominion will always be a great moment
There were a few whoops of joy here during all that. When the Dominion decided to destroy a Cardassian city, I knew that would be the tipping point. They're far too proud a race to let that happen.
Quote from: crankshaft on March 23, 2021, 08:55:11 PM
Great thread, Purlieu, and I'm pleased you enjoyed the show so much.
Oh, me too. Near the start of the third season I was beginning to worry I wasn't going to get what all the hype was about.

Glad people have enjoyed my trawl through it. It's been nice sharing my thoughts. My girlfriend and I are going to finish up our Arrowverse marathon in the next couple of weeks, and then we'll be starting Voyager, which will be interesting. So I'll be bumping that thread when we get going.

Wonderful Butternut

Can FINALLY post this. How DS9 should've ended:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VvqbpLnL0&ab_channel=JohnPhung



DS9 was excellent, especially seasons 3-6 which can stand shoulder to shoulder with any Star Trek made. I personally I think it went down a bit in Season 7. Worf / Ezri pissed me off, I really wanted someone to slap Worf's shit over it. I just felt they tried to pack too many plot twists into the wrap up of the war. The Breen, the Defiant being destroyed (only to be replaced within a couple of episodes), Damar rebelling, the Founder genociding the Cardassians, Gowron needing to bumped off etc. And a lot of the non-war episodes (Take Me Out to the Holosuite, Prodigal Daugher, Badda Bing etc.) are very forgettable for me. Season 7 is still good, but there's a noticeable quality drop imo.

Really the only bad thing I can say about DS9 is people throwing up Section 31 and the Dominion War as rationale for there being nothing wrong with the Grimdark Trek we get now.

I also liked ambiguous antagonist almost encroaching into antihero territory Gul Dukat from seasons 2-5 a lot more than bad guy Dukat, and eventually insane Pah Wraith worshipping Dukat, from 6 & 7. But I do understand that it made perfect sense within the overall narrative for him to be the final big bad for Sisko to defeat.

oy vey

^ Ha. Fucking marvelous outtake.

Thanks purlieu for giving me an excuse to go through DS9 again, not that I ever need one. Honestly, I prefer DS9 to TNG and TOS but it's completely subjective and I would not argue if you think the opposite. I even understand your view. Nothing gives tingles like "Space, the final frontier... these are the voyages... etc." and good point on the gamma quadrant being relatively undeveloped. We'll have to leave that for another series. DS9 season 3-7 arc-storytelling, ensemble casting, inspired character-led writing, etc. is what makes it uniquely special, though very un-Trek. Life is full of paradoxes innit.

On the finale, I loved it but the Sisko/Dukat ending was a little straightforward. And shades of the book of the dead from Evil Dead. Where's Ash for fuck sake? And no closing scene between Ben and Jake, which slightly annoyed me but those are the only non-perfects for me. The rest is superb. Vic singing us out. Bashir/Miles/Garak. Odo saying goodbye to Kira, donning the tux. Gets me every time.

See you in the Delta Quadrant I guess.

p.s. Just found this from the doc... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJLzPxH9CIY

purlieu

Quote from: Wonderful Butternut on March 23, 2021, 09:21:23 PM
Can FINALLY post this. How DS9 should've ended:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VvqbpLnL0&ab_channel=JohnPhung

Marvellous, worth the wait!
Quote from: oy vey on March 23, 2021, 10:26:50 PM
Thanks purlieu for giving me an excuse to go through DS9 again, not that I ever need one. Honestly, I prefer DS9 to TNG and TOS but it's completely subjective and I would not argue if you think the opposite. I even understand your view. Nothing gives tingles like "Space, the final frontier... these are the voyages... etc." and good point on the gamma quadrant being relatively undeveloped. We'll have to leave that for another series. DS9 season 3-7 arc-storytelling, ensemble casting, inspired character-led writing, etc. is what makes it uniquely special, though very un-Trek. Life is full of paradoxes innit.
We're pretty much on the same page, there. As a show watched start-to-finish, it's a much more satisfying experience than TNG. TNG is the better Star Trek, but DS9 is quite possibly the better programme overall.

Poobum


MojoJojo

I'm way behind the thread but just got through the following episodes:
Statistical Probabilities/Waltz/Who Mourns for Morn?

Waltz and Who Mourns for Morn both display some of the same problems that Statistical Probabilities has. Waltz has a big speech about how Gul Dukat is pure evil, when he's plainly mentally ill, even if it's "TV" mental illness. I guess my main issue is really the rather poor conception of what pure evil is, rather than Banquo's ghost version of mental illness.

Who Mourns for Morn has a a new female character - oh and what a surprise they're sexually aggressive. I note that around this time seven of nine turns up in Voyager. DS9 does seem to have a troubled relationship with sex - at the start they try to have relationship stuff which includes some sex going on. You can imagine TV execs thinking this will broaden the appeal to women. Then they seem to stop bothering with that for a while (except for the completely lacking in chemistry Jax/Worf thing). Then it gets to 97/98 and the execs have obviously changed their mind about trying to appeal to women and are all "send in the tits".

Malcy

Rewatched the documentary last night. I'm sure they said they were going to release loads more footage from it but it's never surfaced. I had the same thought after watching it again last night in that there is so much more they could have covered.

MojoJojo

Quote from: purlieu on February 19, 2021, 01:09:55 AM
Far Beyond the Stars. That was brilliant. At first I feared it would just feel like 'explaining racism to white people', which often comes across clunky and unnatural, but as it got going it was incredibly powerful. Throw in the joy of seeing many of the main cast out of makeup (and Quark being so utterly un-Quark), and it all tying in with the Prophets story... yeah, superb stuff.

It's good. I think I've been on the internet a bit too much, because I couldn't help wondering whether it was problematic that Sisko had human-washed all his alien friends in his vision about racism.

Who was the artist? (yes I could google)

Ambient Sheep

Just saw this, that made me smile:

https://twitter.com/frenegi/status/1396912879257915396

Quotemac
@frenegi

if this doesn't make someone wanna watch deep space nine then i don't know what would



8:35 PM · May 24, 2021 · Twitter for Android

Malcy


MojoJojo

Hah, that's good. And gives me an opportunity to mention some things now I've finished my rewatch.

Ideas the writers started with which they then gave up on:
- Jem'Hadar having personal cloaks. Was an explanation ever given as to why they stopped using those? Also their addiction to "the white"- there were a few episodes dealing with it, but when the wormhole got mined the limited supply of white seemed like it would be a major thing. Overall the Jem'Hadar started off as one of the more interesting and threating alien species but devolved into generic bad guys. By the end you have Sisko beating them in fist fight.
- The eye visor things Vorta wear in battle. I thought they were a one off but they turn up again near the end.
- They ran out of things to do with Garak. Considering how he completely made some of the earlier episodes, by the end he's just a side character. Logically Bashir should have been all over him to help with Section 31.

Just general thoughts:
- Ezri Dax was much more entertaining than Jadzia. Jadzia was just dull - which I think was just a case of the writers not really having an idea what to do with her.
- Avery Brooks was good but I get the impression he felt it was silly. Pushed the show to have some scenes about thing he was passionate about though, which were excellent.
-  Marc Alaimo - the writers seemed to like him a lot more than I did. Which isn't to say he was bad, just not worth the attention he was given. His plan in the finale - i.e. undertake radical surgery to go and seduce the space pope and convince them to release the devil - is a case in point.

On the conclusion:
- the Sisko "death" felt pointlessly tacked on. That side of the ending felt completely uninspired, like they wanted to sort-of-kill Sisko off and needed to give Alaimo and Louise Fletcher something to do, but didn't have any good ideas on how to do it.
- can't help noticing that Section 31s bio-weapon is what won the war.
- There's something a bit annoying about that new alien race they introduced. Like the way they wear helmets so they don't need any prosthetics, and the universal translator doesn't work on them so they don't have to pay any actors or write any actual characters.

Mr Trumpet

There was more abandoned stuff, like

- The Romulan officer they introduced who was supposed to supervise the Defiant's loaned cloaking device. She disappeared after one episode (and went on to play Seska in Voyager). The issue was never raised again.
- The first Vorta they meet has psychic powers and can teleport, presumably all the way back to the Gamma Quadrant. Never happens again.

JamesTC

Quote from: Mr Trumpet on May 28, 2021, 07:29:57 PM

- The first Vorta they meet has psychic powers and can teleport, presumably all the way back to the Gamma Quadrant. Never happens again.

Perhaps she communicated what she needed to over subspace and then killed herself using transporter technology and was replaced by her next clone.

Wonderful Butternut

Quote- Jem'Hadar having personal cloaks. Was an explanation ever given as to why they stopped using those?

Not really. They used them on and off as plot convenience required. I remember them using their shrouds as late as Seige of AR-558, but de-shroud as they approach the Starfleet position (excellent tactics, clearly). About the only thing consistent is that they have to be visible to shoot.

Quote- The Romulan officer they introduced who was supposed to supervise the Defiant's loaned cloaking device. She disappeared after one episode (and went on to play Seska in Voyager). The issue was never raised again.

Supposedly the story with this is they intended that the cloak was only on loan to Starfleet for the duration of the Defiant's mission into the Gamma Quadrant, and would then be returned to the Romulans. So T'Rul is no longer needed after "The Search". The writers never thought it important enough to have somebody mention returning the cloak in dialogue.

Possibly supporting this is that the next time we see the Defiant, a few episodes later in 'Second Skin', they infiltrate Cardassian space, something the cloak should be useful for. But they use clever shield harmonic tricks to fool the Cardassian sensors instead. iirc the cloak is not even mentioned as a possibility - although I'm open to correction. Not long after though (translated into maybe 5 episodes) they decided that it was plot convenient for the Defiant to have the cloak and since no one on screen said they didn't have it anymore, it was back for the episode where Tom Riker steals the Defiant.

It was obviously too cumbersome for them to bother bringing back T'Rul or another Romulan officer.

MojoJojo

The bit with Odo becoming human feels like another abandoned plot line. Big major setup, great we can do a lot of introducing Odo to basic human experience things. Actually this has been done let's put him back and never mention it again.

To be fair though those episodes were good.

petril

Quote from: MojoJojo on May 29, 2021, 10:29:55 AM
The bit with Odo becoming human feels like another abandoned plot line. Big major setup, great we can do a lot of introducing Odo to basic human experience things. Actually this has been done let's put him back and never mention it again.

To be fair though those episodes were good.

an episode of Odo going through an ordinary shift, but slowly feeling weaker and fainter as he tries to figure it out among the distractions of duty. sort of soft medical mystery on a typical day, but it doesn't feel big enough to talk to a Doctor

anyway, at the end of it he's done a 12 hour shift and it turns out he's just not eaten, just absent-mindedly not used to managing his own digestive system and having to sort out food. just managed to forget about it today. everybody he's seen today's had food and he's just not got the life experience for that to remind him.

MojoJojo

Followed up by an episode where he shits himself in a turbo lift with Quark and Kira.

Mr Trumpet

If the Founders don't bother to change Odo's external appearance when they make him flesh and blood, does he have any sex parts? Or is he like a Ken doll down there? I assume he doesn't sculpt a willy for himself under his fake clothes as a matter of course.

Edit: what am I saying, if he didn't have at least a bumhole he'd die very quickly wouldn't he

JamesTC


MojoJojo



Mobbd

Quote from: Mr Trumpet on February 02, 2022, 11:32:15 AMIt's funny, I never got into DS9 cos I found it too gloomy and with boring characters (Quark and some of the recurring guests aside). Yet the new stuff I like just fine, with a few caveats.

Quote from: Alberon on February 02, 2022, 11:56:02 AMYet, for me, DS9 is still the pinnacle of Star Trek and I can't stand Discovery.

We're right in the middle of the Dominion War in our full-Trek rewatch now. On balance, I like the war and all the little plot points and characters it gives us, but a weird emptiness to the idea is that Starfleet seem a bit too keen on going to war. There's not much attempt at diplomacy (on screen anyway) and the Founders' defensiveness is actually pretty understandable.

It's good to have an enemy with clear motivations but I'm not sure why Starfleet doesn't say "look, we'll leave you alone and even help defend your vulnerable planet if that's what you want" or, failing that, just close the wormhole. I bet Janeway would do just that!

Big Sisko just seems a little bit too keen on war (as evidenced when Bashir gives him the odds calculated by the mutants and the recommendation to surrender, which Sisko finds just unbelievable) and so does Admiral Beltbuckle. I think the Starfleet brass were insulted that an alien superpower from the other side of the galaxy wouldn't be thrilled to talk to them, which is fine but that idea is not interrogated at all.

Some episodes are indeed a bit too gloomy but it's usually called for and well played (e.g. the Siege of AR-557) and seemingly not about someone's boring fetish for grimdark. Those serious eps are broken up with enough Star Trek nonsense and baseball and heists and Jake-and-Nog hijinks to make me happy on that front.

The general design of things -- the look of the station, Quark's bar being as central to the series as the Bridge of other Trek shows, the expanded recurring cast of hams and oddballs -- is just so much fun.

The sense of a joined up, coherent universe is very strong in DS9, which sometimes makes me think it's the best ever Trek. It's like when a really good LEGO set blows your mind in terms of its complexity but still fits the System and has pieces recognisable from older sets but repurposed to new effect. In my heart, I probably prefer zooming around the strange new worlds with Jim and P-Stew but I fucking love DS9 anyway and it's just the right level of scriptwriting for Star Trek (albeit occasionally weighed down by Burman Bullshit - everyone is angry about Dax but I'm more pissed about Garak).

A few imperfection aside, it's really great. One more season to go.

Lemming

The Dominion War is what killed the show for me for me - everything you mention in your first paragraph, but also the introduction of Section 31, the absolute nonentity of Admiral Ross, the arbitrary killing of billions of people off-screen to raise the stakes ("oh no! Betazoid has been bombarded!"). The Pah-Wraiths are also such a puzzling addition to the show, and I think even DS9's biggest fans agree the finale (or even the entire final season) is at least somewhat a clusterfuck.

I remember what really wound me up though was that the post-occupation Bajor plots from the earlier seasons were so much more interesting, and convincingly portrayed a world full of horror and pain but with a new wave of hope and optimism falling over it. To have that replaced by the Dominion War just felt like the show had dropped everything that made it so striking and turned into something else entirely.

Wonderful Butternut

Ages a go I saw someone (can't remember who or where) on the internet suggest that the 'downfall' of Star Trek actually happened with the Dominion War because it turned the series into an action oriented 'nerd-fest' all about blowing ships up. Coincides with Voyager becoming more action oriented too. And then of course on the movie end, there was a constant push for more action in Insurrection, and the change to the more violent end, which was being written at the time. And then Nemesis came along and it was just ridiculous.

(Btw Lemming, are you doing the TNG movies after the series?)

Personally, I generally liked the Dominion War arc. They showed an edgier side to things without practically wanking over the grimdark like they do in DSC and PIC. Although I think the build up in season 4 & 5 with the Founders playing everyone was better than the War itself. And as I said I think the whole series wobbled quite a bit in season 7.

But at the same time, I sometimes do see point that person was making.

purlieu

I love the Dominion War stuff, the later series of DS9 are my favourite Trek, although TNG probably still wins out just for its wonderful balance of everything.

Mobbd

Quote from: Lemming on February 02, 2022, 04:21:20 PMThe Dominion War is what killed the show for me for me - everything you mention in your first paragraph, but also the introduction of Section 31, the absolute nonentity of Admiral Ross, the arbitrary killing of billions of people off-screen to raise the stakes ("oh no! Betazoid has been bombarded!"). The Pah-Wraiths are also such a puzzling addition to the show

I still like the war arc but it's in spite of those things. I see them as DS9's equivalent of TNG's "amnesia" and not learning from past events, often recent ones. As imperfections go, I can ignore it. The war gives us Weyoun!

This said, Butternut might be right that the Founders playing everyone was very strong. I like the Breen stuff in Season 7 but it can't compete with the paranoia period. I like when Garak tries to curry favour with Changeleader and she's like, "you're all dead. You were dead from the beginning." So cold! And "In Purgatory's Shadow" (the one where they're captive in the asteroid) is in my Top 5 DS9 eps. Love "Apocalypse Rising" when they infiltrate the Klingons too.

I like the Pah-Wraiths quite a lot I'm afraid. That episode with Keiko is also in my Top 5. Rosalind Chow's astonishing performance was out of nowhere. Really scary stuff. Love when Trek does horror. 10/10.

Speaking of Betazed falling, my wife wants to know what Angel One did in the Dominion War. Any suggestions anyone?