Star Trek - Deep Space Nine [split topic]

[Cloud]

Great stuff, I'm quite enjoying reading these reactions.   Won't knowingly spoil anything outside of spoiler tags.

I first watched it all the way through about a decade ago.  When it originally aired, I remember TRYING to watch it but Sky One fucking around with the schedule constantly which is very confusing for a show designed to be watched in sequence, plus all the "boring Bajoran religion stuff" literally sent my 11-12 year old self to sleep.  Thinking about it actually triggers that kind of memory where you can picture your old chair and feel it as if you're still curled up in it nodding off.  So after about the 2nd or 3rd season I gave up watching. 

On the full recent watch, I actually found the "boring Bajoran religion (and political) stuff" - aka seasons 1 and 2 - really interesting.  I'm one of the few who counts S1 and S2 as favourites and was actually kind of disappointed by what I felt was a bit of a change of direction in S3 onwards.  (I doubt it's a spoiler to say "it changes about the time Sisko's head turns upside down").  I don't mean it's BAD from then onwards, it's a fantastic series all the way through (well, S7 is a bit iffy from what I remember), just S1 and S2 remain my faves.

Hated mirror universe and "lolferengi" 'comedy' episodes... YMMV

My favourite duo of the show has to be 'frenemies' that are Odo and Quark.  Reminiscent of Spock and Bones I suppose, but with less actual friendship.... maybe... ;)

[purlieu]

Yeah, I hated it when I watched it as a teenager. Wanting an exciting adventure in unknown territories from Star Trek, DS9's static setting and more political-leaning stories went totally over my head.

Cardassians: A classic Trek morality tale. One of those where there's no ideal outcome, and I'm not sure I entirely agree with Sisko's decision, but the entire investigation to get there was excellent. Garak was superb in this, I'm very much looking forward to seeing more of him.

After 22 episodes, my girlfriend decided she wasn't really getting into it and suggested I just watch it on my own from now on. Had this on this evening and she half-watched it in the background, then asked if I could save the episode so she could watch it tomorrow. Looks like she's back again.

[Lemming]

Hated mirror universe and "lolferengi" 'comedy' episodes... YMMV

With you on this, as well as preferring the earlier seasons and the focus on local, relatively small-scale politics.

Mirror episodes especially were terrible, not least for the way they make it so that

Spoiler alert

Kirk's intervention actually fucked things up even worse. Really can't stand when later installments or novels revisit idealistic TOS endings to make them all dark and edgy

[close]

. Ferengi could be funny in small doses, and I do mean very small doses, like maybe one B-plot per season.

[Natnar]

I never got on with that Winn Adami character. She was just too obviously dodgy without any charisma to explain her popularity with the wider Bajoran population[nb]Noting that the Bajorans are complete dipshits when it comes to religious matters[/nb]. At least with the other bad guys in the show you can see why people might respect them; they have leadership, charisma, or just plain

Spoiler alert

genetically engineered them to follow (but even there, there's a certain cool dignity to the Founders)

[close]

.

She should have been a Slick Willy Clinton type character, full of charm but pulling the strings to her advantage quietly. Instead she's creepy uncle Biden, but without the leg hairs to brush.

I don't think she needs to have much charisma because she's very good at manipulating the people around her to get the power she wants. That's what i find creepy about her, at least Dukat

Spoiler alert

does show a bit of a sympathetic side to him

[close]

later on for a short while, whereas Winn never does.

[purlieu]

Invasive Procedures. Much like the first series, a reasonable Trek idea that doesn't quite reach any interesting heights. I'm looking forward to them doing more with Dax than just "she's a Trill" one day.

Melora. Ah, Bashir is suddenly caring, sensitive and able to not blurt out totally inappropriate, creepy comments to a woman he's interested in. Actually a very nice portrayal about helping somebody coming to terms with a disability, written and portrayed with a lot of respect. The Quark subplot drags it all down quite a bit, other than Odo's brilliant promise to buy a bit of Quark after he's dead.

The Rules of Acquisition. Starts out as standard At Home With the Ferengi sitcom fare, before going into something a lot deeper. Touches on Ferengi chauvinism, and gives Quark's character more emotional depth than we've seen before. And even if I hadn't heard of the Dominion War before, the introduction of the Dominion was given just enough gravity there to pique my interest.

[Wonderful Butternut]

I don't think she needs to have much charisma because she's very good at manipulating the people around her to get the power she wants. That's what i find creepy about her, at least Dukat

Spoiler alert

does show a bit of a sympathetic side to him

[close]

later on for a short while, whereas Winn never does.

She sorta does briefly when

Spoiler alert

she points out to Kira that the Vedeks fought the Cardassians just as much as the Resistance by continuing to teach the Bajoran religion which was banned, and that she remembers every beating she got from the Cardassians for doing that.

[close]

But that's about it. For the most part a power hungry turbo-bitch who's jealous of Sisko.

[purlieu]

Necessary Evil. The 'current' plot is fairly uninteresting, but the flashbacks combined with the ending are the core of this episode. Odo stories are all excellent so far, and this is no exception. I wasn't sure we'd see such a history of how he became who he is, and it was wonderful to watch. Truly excellent stuff.

Second Sight. A mediocre story that could have been an also-ran in later TOS or early TNG, elevated a little by Avery Brooks's performance, O'Brien's response to Seyetik and the surprisingly moving 'let there be light' moment. Really not a highlight, though.

[purlieu]

Sanctuary. I wonder if this episode was ever intended to specifically shine a light on the differences between TNG and DS9. The general concept is similar to what you'd find in a number of TNG episodes, but it goes wrong and ends on a really bitter note. Impressed with the way they did that, even if the overall story was unspectacular.

Spoiler alert

Also, another hint at the presence of the Dominion. There's an obvious symmetry between the Skrreeans and the Bajorans, the T-Rogorans and the Cardassians as their oppressors, and the Federation and Dominion as those who helped end the oppression, albeit in very different ways. If this was intentional then it's setting the Dominion up as some kind of anti-Federation. Just speculating, please no confirmation or denial of this, I'm curious to see how it all develops. Popping this in spoilers in case anyone new to the show is reading and doesn't want more than my vague thoughts or descriptions.

[close]

Rivals. Being a big Red Dwarf fan I recognised what was going on here quite quickly. This might be as close to a straight-up sitcom the show has come so far: no actual sense of threat at all, just an increasingly ludicrous situation that escalates. I really love how O'Brien genuinely dislikes Bashir, it always makes their on-screen time very watchable.

The Alternate. Poor Odo. :(

[crankshaft]

Fun fact: in Rivals, Martus was intended to be Guinan's wayward son. She wasn't available so, aside from him remaining an El-Aurian, all mentions of her were removed.

[purlieu]

Armageddon Game. O'Brien and Bashir are stuck together again. A good antagonistic pair, with O'Brien's blunt dislike of Bashir always enjoyable to watch. A nice conclusion to the main plot, and some great character work revolving around how people cope with the death of a friend / colleague / family member. Well written episode.

Paradise. A typical Trek morality tale, with a colony of crash survivors and the problem of their way of life being challenged by the arrival of Starfleet. Nicely contrasts a supposedly idyllic scenario with some startlingly bleak imagery - Sisko's voluntary punishment was harrowing - and has a nicely complex villain. Plus more O'Brien getting angry at people.

Whispers. aka Everyone Hates Miles. A brilliant mystery story here, with a really unsettling atmosphere. Some edge-of-seat moments with a really satisfying conclusion. One of my favourite stories so far.

The series is definitely showing a bit more confidence at this point, relying less on light-hearted farcical plots and beginning to tell new and challenging stories. It's a gradual process, but there's a specific identity coming into the series now and I'm enjoying it a lot. I'm glad they're not over-egging the Dominion stuff just yet, with only a couple of references so far. In an era of TV shows having self-contained single-series arcs, seeding plots to play the long game feels very satisfying.

[Zetetic]

I think Paradise is one of my favourite bits of sci-fi, from time to time.

Something about Sisko's relentless attachment to a view of the world, in the face of another's.

[oy vey]

Invasive Procedures. Much like the first series, a reasonable Trek idea that doesn't quite reach any interesting heights. I'm looking forward to them doing more with Dax than just "she's a Trill" one day.

Blood Oath (coming up) may satisfy. It's a one-off rather than arc ep, but it's when the series starts to kick off for me. Aside from the mirror and obligatory O'Brien torture episode Tribunal (Whispers was only tickling the character) the rest of the season is strong.

[crankshaft]

Season two is home to some of my favourite episodes of DS9. The opening trilogy, Invasive Procedures, Cardassians, Whispers, Paradise, Rules Of Acquisition, Necessary Evil, Playing God (the plot is nonsense but it's the first real flowering of Dax's character), The Wire...fantastic.

[oy vey]

The Wire is my favourite from S2. They set up Garak nicely for the rest of the series (and later they make the most of all that potential I must say).

[Ambient Sheep]

Yeah, The Wire is one of the best episodes of DS9 full-stop.

[dr_christian_troy]

With a lot of luck and circumstance I managed to nab copies of The Making of Star Trek DS9, The Star Trek DS9 Companion and The DS9 Technical Manual from the same seller - I honestly can't emphasise how thorough and insightful these all are to the series, both behind the scenes and in terms of the efforts put into the world-building. Highly recommended and I'll try to share some insights from the Companion at some point.

[Malcy]

With a lot of luck and circumstance I managed to nab copies of The Making of Star Trek DS9, The Star Trek DS9 Companion and The DS9 Technical Manual from the same seller - I honestly can't emphasise how thorough and insightful these all are to the series, both behind the scenes and in terms of the efforts put into the world-building. Highly recommended and I'll try to share some insights from the Companion at some point.

This was my companion book for over 20 years!



Had a couple of spoilers for S7 on the back page and some predictions. They got a couple right. I picked up a Voyager Companion for a couple of quid years back and it was a great read. Never got round to getting any others although i always intended to.

[Nobody Soup]

Does anyone who's into the behind scenes chat know why we get so many Ezri episodes in the last season?

Voyager gets a bit of a rep for having a cycle of Doctor and seven episodes by the last few seasons but that was at least because the performances and back stories of those characters had made them the most interesting and popular.

Ezri just gets plonked in and then given endless episides solely devoted to her. (there's 3 in a row, ezri goes home, ezri mirror verse/ ezri silence of lambs murder mystery). Were members of the existing cast caught up in other commitments? Just seems odd with the show already written to end, there was nothing to gain in pushing her to the front so much.


For first time watchers I'd advise not looking into this character as there will unavoidable big time spoilers.

[Wonderful Butternut]

I can only guess cos she was new and they only had 1 season to work with her?

[Cloud]

I'd speculate similar reasoning with Vic clogging up the final season or so.

For first time watchers I'd advise not looking into this character as there will unavoidable big time spoilers.

Yes this is important

[Natnar]

Whispers. aka Everyone Hates Miles. A brilliant mystery story here, with a really unsettling atmosphere. Some eAdge-of-seat moments with a really satisfying conclusion. One of my favourite stories so far.

Watching that episode again just made me wonder how Keiko never really seems to fit in with rest of the cast. She only really seems to pop up when it's an Miles focused episode as if they just have to have her there to react when something bad happens to Miles or Molly. I suppose they do try and give her a couple of story lines when

Spoiler alert

she becomes the station schoolteacher and that whole Kira womb-transport baby thing

[close]

but i suppose there was only so much they could do since Rosalind Chao didn't want to commit to being a full time cast member. Although as the series go on i guess

Spoiler alert

Julian

[close]

becomes a sort of Keiko substitute for Miles.

[crankshaft]

It's not just that Keiko doesn't fit in; she's written as shrewish and unthinking most of the time. It's hard to understand what Miles sees in her. It's no wonder he'd rather be playing in the holosuites with Julian. The scene in Cardassians where she serves Cardassian food to Rugal and Miles is emblematic of her thoughtlessness. It's a shame, because there's no problems with Rosalind Chao's performance, her character is just written to be deeply unlikeable.

[Natnar]

Apparently the original plan was to have Keiko as part of the main full cast at the start of DS9 but like i said Rosalind Chao didn't want to commit to that, so who knows, maybe Keiko might have had some story development had she been a full time character.

[Blumf]

It's not just that Keiko doesn't fit in; she's written as shrewish and unthinking most of the time. It's hard to understand what Miles sees in her.

Was it a shotgun wedding? Waking up after a heavy sesh at 10-Forward, ashamed, and then, a week later, Crusher delivers the bad news.

The whole of DS9, just counting the days till Molly's 18th when she goes off to the Academy and they can split up.

Then Kirayoshi turns up...

[The Culture Bunker]

Does remind me that I really enjoyed Michael Dorn's selling of Worf's terror when he finds out O'Brien is set to become a dad again.

"Have you heard? Keiko's going to have another baby."
"NOW??!"

[Lemming]

I don't mind Keiko, but I always thought O'Brien was a bit of a prick* so maybe I was just projecting myself onto her rather than him in all their scenes together. The first thing I remember about her is her calling O'Brien out on his nonstop racism, I think in "Cardassians", which made me sigh in relief because fucking finally someone steps up and tells him to stop going on and on about THE CARDIES.

*(which is a big part of why his character works, for me)

[Sin Agog]

O'Brien even gets fucked with when he's off the space station, like that time Nicolas Cage tied his brand new sports car to a jet plane and took it for a walkabout.

[Blumf]

Though you have to admit that was preferable to the time the Grim Reaper from Bill & Ted tricked him into crashing his plane into the ground. Windsor Airlines fired him after that.

[Zetetic]

Keiko's up there with most of post-occupation Bajoran society as things that make me think Cardassia isn't that bad.

[JamesTC]

Keiko's up there with most of post-occupation Bajoran society as things that make me think Cardassia isn't that bad.

Say what you like about the Cardassians, but they made the shuttle crafts run on time.