Author Topic: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]  (Read 25123 times)

Jumblegraws

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #150 on: December 29, 2020, 01:11:26 PM »
Boyle is in absolutely no position to criticise Gervais for using oppressed minorities as struts for cruel one-liners. Both have form in spinning lofty justifications for these sorts of jokes offstage, whilst conveniently ignoring the possibility that, more often than not, they aren’t stirring their audience into social-satirical insight, but are simply gratifying a repressed desire to bully. And that’s making what I consider to be a generous assumption that they don’t just concoct these liner notes after the fact.1. That said, on the specific issue of transphobia, Gervais’s offstage justification - that there’s a coterie of predatory men using acceptance of trans people as a means of accessing women-only spaces - is itself a transphobic talking point. So on this specific issue, I think Boyle doesn’t come across as a total hypocrite.

1I find it very hard to believe, for example, that Boyle’s infamous Harvey Price joke was based, per the claim he gave in a broadsheet interview, on a righteous distaste for her using her son as part of her media brand, a state of affairs that strikes me as 1) inevident 2) not worth commenting on even if true and 3) not captured in the joke, subtext or otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 01:22:07 PM by Jumblegraws »

Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #151 on: December 29, 2020, 01:22:06 PM »
The amount of people on Twitter leaping to Ricky's defence is staggering. Comments like this:

https://twitter.com/DreyfusJames/status/1343634363892817920?s=19

Feels like he's brainwashed half his followers into blind, cult-like worship

Yes, it's utterly bizarre and it's been going on for years. Criticise any aspect of Gervais almost anywhere with an open comments section and an army of defensive fanboys will materialise from nowhere and immediately pile on to defend their God King, guaranteed.

Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #152 on: December 29, 2020, 01:50:35 PM »
Boyle is in absolutely no position to criticise Gervais for using oppressed minorities as struts for cruel one-liners. Both have form in spinning lofty justifications for these sorts of jokes offstage, whilst conveniently ignoring the possibility that, more often than not, they aren’t stirring their audience into social-satirical insight, but are simply gratifying a repressed desire to bully. And that’s making what I consider to be a generous assumption that they don’t just concoct these liner notes after the fact.1. That said, on the specific issue of transphobia, Gervais’s offstage justification - that there’s a coterie of predatory men using acceptance of trans people as a means of accessing women-only spaces - is itself a transphobic talking point. So on this specific issue, I think Boyle doesn’t come across as a total hypocrite.

1I find it very hard to believe, for example, that Boyle’s infamous Harvey Price joke was based, per the claim he gave in a broadsheet interview, on a righteous distaste for her using her son as part of her media brand, a state of affairs that strikes me as 1) inevident 2) not worth commenting on even if true and 3) not captured in the joke, subtext or otherwise.
Yeah, Gervais is a douchebag and he does have a lazy sense of humour, but Boyle isn't exactly great either.

Blue Jam

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #153 on: December 29, 2020, 02:04:25 PM »
The only thing that bugs me are that most disability/ginger hair/Scotland 'jokes' that people make are absolutely fucking shit. And I've put the word jokes in inverted commas because they usually are just insults. That's all. No punchline, nothing unexpected. Just insults.

Ditto for all the Welsh "jokes" I've heard. Growing up on farms, having no electricity or running water, shagging sheep etc. They're not actually jokes, just lazy and insulting stereotypes.

Incidentally I watched the Christmas episode of House Of Fools on Christmas Day, the one with Reece Sheersmith as the racist Santa who chooses presents according to national stereotypes- ie, bringing pistols, ponchos and sombreros to children in Mexico. I thought that worked, a load of lazy stereotypes that made the racist the butt of the joke. Come to think of it it's like that famous scene in Whatever Happened To The Likely Lads where Terry comes out with an insulting stereotype for every nation and can only think of "pornographic" for Denmark. Of course Bob is calling him out on it and the joke's on Terry because he's making himself look ignorant (and a bit of a perv).

I guess national stereotypes can work in jokes when the humour is punching up at the person making them, then.

Blue Jam

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #154 on: December 29, 2020, 02:25:54 PM »
I remember when The Beastie Boys were on the same bill as The Prodigy at a festival and requested that they didn't play Smack My Bitch Up because it was offensive to women. The Prodigy told them to fuck off, and a number of journalists opined that it was a bit rich of them to accuse anyone of sexism when they used to write misogynistic lyrics and say misogynistic things in interviews and have go-go dancers on stage. Their response to that was essentially "But we were young then". Of course they were then called out for not giving The Prodge the benefit of the doubt Re: age.

Is Boyle really a hypocrite? Is it not possible for a person to make mistakes and reflect on them and grow up anymore?

Mind you if the older, wiser, woker Frankie Boyle is still writing for The S*n he can fuck right off.

Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #155 on: December 29, 2020, 02:33:09 PM »
I remember when The Beastie Boys were on the same bill as The Prodigy at a festival and requested that they didn't play Smack My Bitch Up because it was offensive to women. The Prodigy told them to fuck off, and a number of journalists opined that it was a bit rich of them to accuse anyone of sexism when they used to write misogynistic lyrics and say misogynistic things in interviews and have go-go dancers on stage. Their response to that was essentially "But we were young then". Of course they were then called out for not giving The Prodge the benefit of the doubt Re: age.

Is Boyle really a hypocrite? Is it not possible for a person to make mistakes and reflect on them and grow up anymore?

Mind you if the older, wiser, woker Frankie Boyle is still writing for The S*n he can fuck right off.

It is possible for someone to grow and change but has Boyle openly reflected and spoke about this? He's never said sorry for any of his more offensive material, so I don't believe he's gone on the journey you're claiming.

Jumblegraws

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #156 on: December 29, 2020, 02:40:33 PM »
Is it not possible for a person to make mistakes and reflect on them and grow up anymore?
Absolutely, but Boyle says in the same session with Theroux that he doesn’t regret any of his jokes beyond the finer points of delivery. If he did a Sarah Silverman and said “the jokes I told were bad and the justifications I came up with to protect my progressive credentials were, in retrospect, defensively contrived” then accusations of hypocrisy would be weak. But he doesn’t do that, and repeats the the same sentiment he’s been spouting for years, namely that it’s intellectually dishonest to isolate a gag from a stand-up routine and interrogate it outside of that context. And yet that’s exactly what he does with Gervais’s Caitlyn Jenner bit. The fact that his assessment of Gervais’s transphobia is on the money doesn’t change that this is “do as I say, not as I do”.

Lisa Jesusandmarychain

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #157 on: December 29, 2020, 02:42:28 PM »
" Tramadol Nights" was 10 years ago, but  the Sadowitz- snaffling nauseating aftertaste of that abomination of a show, with its up to date , cutting edge " What If Yer Man From " Knight Rider" was actually just some mentally ill feller? " references still remain. The stuff he writes for " The Guardian" can occasionally be amusing, but all too often comes across as try- too-hard Ersatz Brookerese.

Blue Jam

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #158 on: December 29, 2020, 02:45:01 PM »
I was asking rhetorical questions there, not making excuses for him, just to be clear.

I think there are genuine cases where someone has done offensive things when they were young and stupid and later shown genuine remorse and regret, and I'm not a big fan of people dredging up old tweets a person sent when they were 12 (for example) or looking for any excuse to accuse someone of hypocrisy. I'm not sure about Boyle though- I think he may have apologised for the Rebecca Adlington joke but that's it. I do enjoy a lot of his work but I'm no apologist for his earlier stuff.

Also I did find it very funny when he tried to call out Andrew Lawrence on Twitter during that time he went a bit UKIP, and Lawrence just replied with a mention of the Rebecca Adlington joke and Boyle had no comeback. Lawrence totally owned him there, I had to admit.

pigamus

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #159 on: December 29, 2020, 02:49:49 PM »
It is possible for someone to grow and change but has Boyle openly reflected and spoke about this? He's never said sorry for any of his more offensive material, so I don't believe he's gone on the journey you're claiming.

It always seemed to me a bit “I’m sorry if you feel you were upset”

Lisa Jesusandmarychain

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #160 on: December 29, 2020, 02:51:44 PM »
If the lad himself is reading this, I'd be happy to propose a toast to him at this time of goodwill to all men, by raising a glass of fine, Malt Whiskey, or can of Special Brew or worrever to his good self, with a festive " Cheers"!

Go on, Frankie, have a drink- it's Christmas!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 03:23:28 PM by Lisa Jesusandmarychain »

pigamus

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #161 on: December 29, 2020, 02:53:42 PM »
I don’t agree about his Guardian articles though. I thought they were superb.

Blue Jam

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #162 on: December 29, 2020, 02:55:35 PM »
This one:

https://mobile.twitter.com/andrewlawrence/status/527110826868875264

Looks like Boyle deleted the original tweet. Still no comeback.

Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #163 on: December 29, 2020, 03:01:12 PM »
Just because someone is a hypocrite does not mean they are wrong. It would be good for Boyle to have a Damascene conversion about taking the piss out of handicapped kids; for instance Matt Lucas has distanced himself from the punching down he used to do. However, Boyle does not seem to make edgelordy jokes any more and hasn't for years. It might be hard for some people to distance themselves from the dumb things they said 15 years ago, they might not want to seem weak.

James Dreyfus is merely a hardcore transphobe, hence his adamant support of fellow traveller Gervais. Who similarly made jokes about handicapped kids and is surely just as bad as Boyle ever was in this regard. James Dreyfus also called child-rape funder Chris Langham a genius.

Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #164 on: December 29, 2020, 03:02:45 PM »
This one:

https://mobile.twitter.com/andrewlawrence/status/527110826868875264

Looks like Boyle deleted the original tweet. Still no comeback.

Twitter says Boyle has 607 tweets, which means he's used a a tweet deleter that gets rid of everything at once, so it's not like he's deleted those tweets manually. I wonder if he's worried some of his dodgier tweets will be brought up to use against him

Blue Jam

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #165 on: December 29, 2020, 03:05:50 PM »
Bit like Katie Hopkins deleting all her old tweets before Twitter saved her the bother of deleting the newer ones, then...

I don’t agree about his Guardian articles though. I thought they were superb.

Yes, they're great. His autobiography, My Shit Life So Far is also good, though I got it as a Kindle edition bundled with another of his books and couldn't get into that one. I think it was Scotland's Jesus, great title but the content was a bit ranty, a tad Clarkson.

Also that BBC tour of Scotland series he did this year was good. I like some bits of his stand-up while disliking other bits of his stand-up.

I guess I'm saying I can still separate the art from the artist in his case. He's not quite up there with Kevin Spacey or Glinner.

Jumblegraws

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #166 on: December 29, 2020, 03:19:01 PM »
Just because someone is a hypocrite does not mean they are wrong.
This is true, but it’s also the case that progressive messages are more compelling when espoused by people who lead by example. On this issue specifically, Boyle making an exception to his “context is everything in standup” principle to criticise Gervais’s transphobic jokes is currently being used as evidence for the perverse claim that trans people, and trans women especially, get special treatment. As call-outs go, I’d rather Boyle had kept his trap shut on this one.

BritishHobo

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #167 on: December 29, 2020, 04:22:01 PM »
The Gervais defenders on Twitter seem to be taking two lines of defence, namely that A: Gervais is lovely and compassionate unlike the hateful Boyle, and his jokes are all in support of kindness and empathy, but also B: Gervais is a no-shits-given offensive comic, unlike the cowardly woke Boyle, and he doesn't give a fuck whose feelings he hurts, because he's brilliant and edgy.

Zetetic

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #168 on: December 29, 2020, 04:34:54 PM »
James Dreyfus also called child-rape funder Chris Langham a genius.
For context, "a genius performer" rather than as a comment on paying for child abuse imagery.

Posh Nosh was a massive source of comfort at one point in my life and for various reasons I have some affection for Black Pond, yet at the same time I'm not in favour of supporting the abuse of children.

There's enough to tackle these people on without trying to find something in every utterance - perhaps particularly when the contents of those utterance is largely harmless and yet their performance is intended to outrage or upset, since that's clearly a deliberate trap to 1) garner engagement and 2) portray opposition to their actually hateful nonsense as deranged.

Sonny_Jim

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #169 on: December 29, 2020, 09:42:12 PM »
Boyle is a hypocrite.

Gervais made a very lazy attack helicopter joke in 2018.

Both of these can be true at the same time and simply repeating 'yer, but what about....' isn't the rock solid defense of Gervais his fans think it is.

Jockice

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #170 on: December 29, 2020, 09:51:42 PM »
I remember when The Beastie Boys were on the same bill as The Prodigy at a festival and requested that they didn't play Smack My Bitch Up because it was offensive to women. The Prodigy told them to fuck off, and a number of journalists opined that it was a bit rich of them to accuse anyone of sexism when they used to write misogynistic lyrics and say misogynistic things in interviews and have go-go dancers on stage. Their response to that was essentially "But we were young then". Of course they were then called out for not giving The Prodge the benefit of the doubt Re: age.

One of the many reasons I think The Beastie Boys are wankers. I'm not even a fan of The Prodigy but I just thought 'how fucking dare you?'

Motes in your own eye and stuff like that.

Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #171 on: December 29, 2020, 10:31:10 PM »
Here's an interview Boyle did with Richard Osman in 2014 where he talks about the Price joke and controversial humour in general. Osman (who I'm not a fan of usually) takes him to task about it quite well and I'm not impressed by Boyle's justifications.

https://youtu.be/0MRz9RPlsDQ?t=324

Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #172 on: December 29, 2020, 10:41:18 PM »
Boyle's just as much of a cunt as he's always been. I saw one of his whatever it's called programmes and it was tedious beyond belief. Reactionary views and guests who are there to go "oh my God, did you really say that?" at his sub-Brooker lines.

But he's right about Gervais. It's Piers Morgan and a government minister.

Menu

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #173 on: December 30, 2020, 01:04:11 AM »


Also I did find it very funny when he tried to call out Andrew Lawrence on Twitter during that time he went a bit UKIP, and Lawrence just replied with a mention of the Rebecca Adlington joke and Boyle had no comeback. Lawrence totally owned him there, I had to admit.

That seems to me to be the salient point. We have free speech in this country so people can joke about whatever they like and people can, in turn, choose to listen or not listen. But if you are going to make a career out of doing those kinds of jokes you can't then criticise someone else for doing one about an issue you happen to care about.

Menu

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #174 on: December 30, 2020, 01:10:14 AM »
Boyle does not seem to make edgelordy jokes any more

Well he certainly was on his New World Order programme a few weeks ago. Accompanied by the trademark shots of his fellow comedians laughing hysterically and doing faces that say, "Oooh Frankie, you didn't go THERE did you? Oh Frankie! WHAT ARE YOU LIKE?!"

Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #175 on: December 30, 2020, 01:24:34 AM »
Ricky Gervais

Sonny_Jim

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #176 on: December 30, 2020, 04:25:40 AM »
Quote
But if you are going to make a career out of doing those kinds of jokes you can't then criticise someone else for doing one about an issue you happen to care about
So Boyle isn't allowed to criticise Gervais because he's a hypocrite?

Also it's not really a double standard, is it?  One joke affects a solitary person, whereas the other targets a minority.  But yeah, something about Ricky punching down and Boyle punching up.

Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #177 on: December 30, 2020, 04:30:23 AM »
they’re both shit cunts but i will give Boyle credit for at least sometimes being funny

Jockice

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Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #178 on: December 30, 2020, 07:59:35 AM »
That seems to me to be the salient point. We have free speech in this country so people can joke about whatever they like and people can, in turn, choose to listen or not listen. But if you are going to make a career out of doing those kinds of jokes you can't then criticise someone else for doing one about an issue you happen to care about.

Reminds me of a bloke I used to work with. The first conversation I had with him on his first day (I happened to go up to the office in the goods lift at the same time as him) was about whether I was 'politically correct.' It was clear that he saw himself as some sort of loose-lipped verbal gunslinger and indeed he did do all the racist, sexist, disablist stuff, always with a veil of 'irony.'

Then one day I said something offhand about a subject he obviously didn't think was a laughing matter (not saying what it is and I didn't know this at the time but it turned out to be something that had affected his family) and his face fell. I swear I could see tears forming in his eyes and he immediately turned round and walked out of the room. Aw come on mate, I was only having a laugh there. Can't you take a joke? Etc.

PS, I think Jerry Sadowitz is about a million times better than Boyle, Gervais and Carr all put together. In a mincer.

Re: Ricky Gervais's After Life series 3 [split topic]
« Reply #179 on: December 30, 2020, 09:03:27 AM »
That seems to me to be the salient point. We have free speech in this country so people can joke about whatever they like and people can, in turn, choose to listen or not listen. But if you are going to make a career out of doing those kinds of jokes you can't then criticise someone else for doing one about an issue you happen to care about.

Well, of course you can, as that's also free speech. And people are then, in turn, free to point out your hypocrisy.

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