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Killers Kancelled

Started by Rizla, July 31, 2020, 03:14:58 PM

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thugler

The stuff with the crew is absolutely disgusting obviously, sounds like an absolutely toxic culture. But the bands having casual sex with willing fans and not being totally respectful of them is just poor behavior and not necessarily abusive. There is a dubious power dynamic, but the women who have these encounters with bands are quite capable of speaking out for themselves and we have no reason to assume they have no agency in the matter.

Incidentally, I met a couple of the killers (singer and drummer) after a gig on probably their first uk nme tour (I didn't attend obviously) at my University, they came to do their laundry in the launderette in the early hours as I was doing the same, wearing hoodies with 'THE KILLERS' in big letters on. They were polite and withstood my mild piss taking with good humor. A few obsessive female fans eventually turned up to bother them and they got out of there. They didn't strike me as being sex crazed rock n rollers as much as quite boring religious types, aren't they mormons?

thugler

Quote from: Flouncer on August 02, 2020, 08:23:46 PM
I'm not going to spend my time trawling through his post history to find examples. I get really pissed off every time I see him do it, so I'm not putting myself through that just to prove a point. Since I made that post two other people have told me privately that they've observed the same thing, so I'm quite satisfied that I'm correct in what I'm saying. I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

I've no idea if you are correct or not. But If you are going to make serious allegations about a poster then you should probably provide evidence of this.

buzby

Quote from: thugler on August 03, 2020, 09:49:38 AM
They didn't strike me as being sex crazed rock n rollers as much as quite boring religious types, aren't they mormons?
Flowers is a Mormon, the rest aren't. You may be mixing them up with the Osmonds.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: thugler on August 03, 2020, 09:49:38 AM
but the women who have these encounters with bands are quite capable of speaking out for themselves and we have no reason to assume they have no agency in the matter.

I've never mentioned this on CaB before because I know exactly the sort of accusatory responses I'd probably get, but as it's apposite to the above...

One of my close (female) friends is, unbeknownst to most of her family and other friends, a former groupie (from the age of about 15 in the mid 80s up to the mid 90s) and she had a LOT of encounters with (mostly mid-tier with the odd A-list) bands and artists during that time, some of them when she was still underage.  She's never said she'd been abused or groomed or anything like that, and she's always been very adamant that she instigated and was in control of ALL of her encounters (in fact one singer [mentioning no names here] threw her out of his dressing room when he found out she was actually 16 [until she was 18 she had a fake ID that gave her age as 19]).

That's not to throw any doubt on the Killers accusations (or any others), and also acknowledging that the groupie thing is usually (not always, but usually) quite different from this sort of nasty business, but just to back up that, yes, some women had encounters that they were in control of and completely understood what was going on and it's exactly what they wanted - my friend says she wouldn't dream of ever calling any of her experiences abuse, nor would she call out those she had experiences with.  As she often puts it "I had sex that I wanted with quite a few good looking famous men, and some of them were even really really good at it" (I'll also add here, for info, that she also had and still has quite a high sex drive - her husband [also an old friend of mine] says it's verging on addiction, which he's struggling with now he's in his mid 50s).

Neville Chamberlain

You never get any of this sordid nonsense at a Phil Minton gig.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Neville Chamberlain on August 03, 2020, 01:47:43 PM
You never get any of this sordid nonsense at a Phil Minton gig.

Sure about that?  What do you think those pre-gig noises coming from the dressing room are?  Those aren't vocal warmups you know!!!!!!!


(I LOLd)

Rizla



Flouncer



I'm not making a specific allegation. I'm saying that consistently and over a number of years, I've seen him denigrate victims and defend abusers, every time he's commented on the subject. Scumbags who think like this are a danger to women: they believe that a man's need to get his rocks off trumps the woman's right to not be sexually assaulted. These attitudes have an effect on the way they treat the women they come into contact with. If you want to trawl through his posts the 'evidence' is there, but I'm not going to put myself through that because the cunt makes me feel sick. I'm tired of him displaying this appalling attitude time and time again without rebuke. I'm not backing down on this at all - degenerates like him shouldn't be able to get away with repeatedly shooting their mouths off without being called out on it.

flotemysost

Quote from: thugler on August 03, 2020, 09:49:38 AM
the women who have these encounters with bands are quite capable of speaking out for themselves and we have no reason to assume they have no agency in the matter.

Agree with everything in your post, and I don't doubt for a moment that lots of groupies through the ages genuinely did have a grand old time (like Shit Good Nose's friend, for example) but I'm still wary of making the "if they wanted to speak up, they're perfectly capable of it" argument, for reasons I've outlined in my earlier posts here - essentially, it can take a long time to accept that you've been assaulted or taken advantage of, especially if you're attracted to or in some way in thrall to the perpetrator - of course, this doesn't just apply to famous people. (I'll add that although I'm somewhat speaking from experience, I'm also no expert on abuse and I realise there's a LOT more to it than that.)

Obviously this doesn't mean we should hurl blanket accusations at anyone in a band who's ever shagged a fan, but I do think the "if anything bad really happened, they would have come forward" road is a potentially dangerous train of thought that ignores the nuances of each situation -  I think there's a middle ground between that and assuming all of these women are helpless victims.

Dunno if Flowers is a particularly observant/religious Mormon or just raised as one, but having been to Mormon church a few times they've definitely got some incredibly questionable ideas about women and sex. And tea.

Quote from: Neville Chamberlain on August 03, 2020, 01:47:43 PM
You never get any of this sordid nonsense at a Phil Minton gig.

Much needed LOL.


The Mollusk

I imagine Flowers probably consulted god about it and god was basically like "mate you wrote one of the most anthemic pop bangers of the last 30 years, uniting everyone under the sun with your insanely catchy one-note choruses. You can shag whoever you want".

I'm not saying I agree with that statement by the way. In fact quite the opposite: we should kill god.

garbed_attic

Quote from: Flouncer on August 03, 2020, 06:20:18 PM


I'm not making a specific allegation. I'm saying that consistently and over a number of years, I've seen him denigrate victims and defend abusers, every time he's commented on the subject. Scumbags who think like this are a danger to women: they believe that a man's need to get his rocks off trumps the woman's right to not be sexually assaulted. These attitudes have an effect on the way they treat the women they come into contact with. If you want to trawl through his posts the 'evidence' is there, but I'm not going to put myself through that because the cunt makes me feel sick. I'm tired of him displaying this appalling attitude time and time again without rebuke. I'm not backing down on this at all - degenerates like him shouldn't be able to get away with repeatedly shooting their mouths off without being called out on it.

C&B is a strange place (though maybe typical of the internet in some ways). I can't help but feel that there are a lot of guys on here (far less women) who have admitted things in the past (or simply said something... there used to be a lot of "ironic" rape jokes on here) that put them in something of a glasshouse when it comes to cancellations. The discourse on here has changed radically within a decade... mostly for the best, I think, but not without a lot of cognitive dissonance. I feel like when I was writing angstily about things I was guilty about on here some 10 years back, I was in the minority in harping on about age differences and power differentials and enthusiastic consent and lots of famous people being nonces and noone caring. At the time it made me seem rather neurotic! While I'm glad, in most respects, this is now the mainstream discourse, I think NL mostly stands out by virtue of not having shifted his posting style with the times... It's worth remembering, for instance, how many people on here posted about looking at the stolen nudes of celebrities only 6 years ago.

thugler

Quote from: Flouncer on August 03, 2020, 06:20:18 PM


I'm not making a specific allegation. I'm saying that consistently and over a number of years, I've seen him denigrate victims and defend abusers, every time he's commented on the subject. Scumbags who think like this are a danger to women: they believe that a man's need to get his rocks off trumps the woman's right to not be sexually assaulted. These attitudes have an effect on the way they treat the women they come into contact with. If you want to trawl through his posts the 'evidence' is there, but I'm not going to put myself through that because the cunt makes me feel sick. I'm tired of him displaying this appalling attitude time and time again without rebuke. I'm not backing down on this at all - degenerates like him shouldn't be able to get away with repeatedly shooting their mouths off without being called out on it.

I'm sorry but I don't think you can expect everyone to just take your word for it. Not making a specific allegation isn't helpful. You are the one (in the thread) shouting your mouth off and I can understand why as this is a really horrible upsetting topic and perhaps they deserve it. But I think any poster would expect someone making them out to be a nasty piece of work to provide some evidence of it.

Quote from: flotemysost on August 03, 2020, 07:03:53 PM
Agree with everything in your post, and I don't doubt for a moment that lots of groupies through the ages genuinely did have a grand old time (like Shit Good Nose's friend, for example) but I'm still wary of making the "if they wanted to speak up, they're perfectly capable of it" argument, for reasons I've outlined in my earlier posts here - essentially, it can take a long time to accept that you've been assaulted or taken advantage of, especially if you're attracted to or in some way in thrall to the perpetrator - of course, this doesn't just apply to famous people. (I'll add that although I'm somewhat speaking from experience, I'm also no expert on abuse and I realise there's a LOT more to it than that.)

Obviously this doesn't mean we should hurl blanket accusations at anyone in a band who's ever shagged a fan, but I do think the "if anything bad really happened, they would have come forward" road is a potentially dangerous train of thought that ignores the nuances of each situation -  I think there's a middle ground between that and assuming all of these women are helpless victims.

Dunno if Flowers is a particularly observant/religious Mormon or just raised as one, but having been to Mormon church a few times they've definitely got some incredibly questionable ideas about women and sex. And tea.

Much needed LOL.

Yeah that's a fair point, it can take a long time for the realisation of abuse to emerge and particularly the weird power dynamics. There's definitely a fuck load of this stuff that's either not come out or being pretty much ignored as a problem due to the idea that this kind of stuff is the norm in rock music circles.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: thugler on August 03, 2020, 09:32:30 PM
I'm sorry but I don't think you can expect everyone to just take your word for it. Not making a specific allegation isn't helpful. You are the one (in the thread) shouting your mouth off and I can understand why as this is a really horrible upsetting topic and perhaps they deserve it. But I think any poster would expect someone making them out to be a nasty piece of work to provide some evidence of it.
By the same token, you can't expect him to take your "provide more evidence" request seriously, given its position in internet debate as a tool for making someone waste a lot of time for no reason. Noodle Lizard's posts are right there for you to search through, just the same as anyone else, if you're actually interested.

thugler

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on August 03, 2020, 10:21:22 PM
By the same token, you can't expect him to take your "provide more evidence" request seriously, given its position in internet debate as a tool for making someone waste a lot of time for no reason. Noodle Lizard's posts are right there for you to search through, just the same as anyone else, if you're actually interested.

It's not an internet debate though, it's about a specific poster. I don't think anyone should be accusing someone of something that awful without any reference whatsoever. Can i just make accusations as i like then? Famous mortimer has a long history of clubbing badgers to death and posting about it on here. When? Oh you can look for yourself.

Flouncer

If you've actually seen him repeatedly post about clubbing badgers to death over a period of several years then yes, yes you can.

Noodle Lizard

I had a look through myself, and while I don't think I've done or said anything quite as horrible as has been suggested (and I don't think CaB would put up with that kind of talk for a second), I think I understand where that impression might be coming from - and that is my fault. It does seem as though I only crop up in threads regarding this kind of allegation to express "doubt" or play devil's advocate (same with this one), but that's because I rarely have anything worthwhile to add to the discussion of clear-cut cases of sexual abuse such as Weinstein, Cosby, Epstein etc. and honestly I prefer not to dwell on the grimness of them for too long.

With cases like the band's involvement in this (or Chris D'Elia, Aziz Ansari etc.) there's a little more room for interpretation, and I think it's possible to explore that without taking sides. Of course it's a difficult subject, and I like to think I'm always careful to be respectful about it, but I can see how it appears I "only ever" have doubt to express since that's the only time I tend to bother posting here. For similar reasons, other posters have had a problem with me seemingly hating every movie/TV show etc., which couldn't be further from the truth - I just tended not to think my positive opinions were worth very much compared to my vitriol. I've absolutely got a bit of a contrarian streak in me too - if I see enough people taking one side, I'm always compelled to think "Hang on, maybe not".

Ultimately, you only get a very small example of "me" on this forum, and I can absolutely see how it can seem to skew one way or the other depending on what I focus on. As for subjects like these, I really don't need to post my what-ifs about them, and it's probably better that I don't. I'm often a bit absent-minded about how I come across here, and if I didn't know myself either I would probably also be thinking "Mate, what is it with you and this topic?"

So fair's fair. I'm comfortable enough with myself to know my heart's more or less in the right place, but I can absolutely understand why I might have come across like a bit of a twat in threads like these, and knowing that it's actually upsetting people rather than just making the occasional eyes roll is enough for me to not do it anymore.

ProvanFan

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on August 04, 2020, 12:40:56 AM
I just tended not to think my positive opinions were worth very much compared to my vitriol.

Well they did have three top 40 singles

rue the polywhirl

No Korroboration with the Killers, apparently. Killers vindiKated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53645326

thugler

Quote from: rue the polywhirl on August 04, 2020, 07:26:58 AM
No Korroboration with the Killers, apparently. Killers vindiKated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53645326

This explanation (that it was all effectively a wind up of the female crew member) makes sense in that I can't imagine the whole crew going along with that kind of depravity so openly, but equally the toxic culture that makes them think this kind of bullying is a good idea is hardly a vindication of them or the band either. But no way of telling what is true really. I notice they don't comment on them paying roadies to bring them women etc. (because that's fine I guess?).

sevendaughters

surprised the Killers' employees found the Killers' employees mostly above reproach.


Harry Badger

Quote from: sevendaughters on August 04, 2020, 11:42:58 AM
surprised the Killers' employees found the Killers' employees mostly above reproach.

You might even say that you're.....choking on their alibis.

The Mollusk

Quote from: Harry Badger on August 04, 2020, 01:20:32 PM
You might even say that you're.....choking on their alibis.

Damn that's good

Captain Z

All charges against Noodle Lizard have been dropped.

Hand Solo

Quote from: Captain Z on August 04, 2020, 03:35:57 PM
All charges trousers against Noodle Lizard have been dropped.

Oz Oz Alice

Quote from: Harry Badger on August 04, 2020, 01:20:32 PM
You might even say that you're.....choking on their alibis.

There was no motive for this crime, Jenny was a friend of mine.

PlanktonSideburns

Just done an extensive investigation into an alleged sexual assault that happened 11 years ago and found no evidence

End of mate

shagatha crustie


Quote from: shagatha crustie on August 13, 2020, 11:49:31 PM
Dont know if this deserves its own thread but...

Kozelek Kancelled

https://pitchfork.com/news/mark-kozelek-of-sun-kil-moon-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-three-women/

Popularly known as "the fifth Killer." Think I read that he wrote the "Are we human?" lyric.