Killers Kancelled

[Famous Mortimer]

Another musician I'm now glad I never gave a shit about.

New page comment that's quite confusing on its own alert!

[peanutbutter]

It does feel like kozelek has spent the last 6 years preemptively canceling himself after Benji was a surprise critical darling. Even on that album there's loads of moments which are remarkably warm or charming but at the same time loaded with bits where a lot of people are gonna know exactly what he's on about and he's just recklessly stirring a load of shit with pretty much zero concern

He's always been a huge prick, like? It barely makes sense for him to be anything other than a fringe figure, albeit a really talented one.

[shagatha crustie]

Popularly known as "the fifth Killer." Think I read that he wrote the "Are we human?" lyric.

Thanks for being snide but this seemed to have developed into the catch-all thread for discussion of abuse in the music industry, plus I didn't know how familiar people were with Kozelek on this forum so was unsure about starting a new one.

[The Mollusk]

Yeah as mentioned above, Kozelek is a fucking wanker so woefully this doesn't surprise me, although I am of course very much saddened to hear it.

[sambwel]

Related: I was a little shocked to see that The Gaslamp Killer's new effort being promoted as album of the week on Bleep, given that last I'd heard he was indeed kancelled due to a serious allegation made a few years ago (namely that he drugged and raped two women that he met at a party). Horrified as I was, having been a fan, I believed the accusation, and that belief was compounded by his colleagues publicly cutting ties. I stopped paying attention at that point. Well, it turns out the matter was resolved last year, following legal action by GLK, with both sides releasing a joint statement agreeing that the events in question did not occur as originally alleged - the gist is that if the women were drugged it wasn't by him, and he genuinely believed they consented and were fully capable of doing so. Reading between the lines I wouldn't be surprised if he was also intoxicated, which would have contributed to his inability to assess the women's level of intoxication. Anyone interested in the details can google all of this so I won't bother trying to select the best links to insert here.

Anyway, I mention all of this not because I believe this counter-example proves that #MeToo has gone too far, or that all rape accusations are fake, or any of that MRA/incel nonsense. I think we all know how prevalent sexual assault is in the entertainment industry, as it is in sports, and anywhere you can find men who wield both money and fame. But realising that in this specific case there really were two sides to the story, and that I was happy to immediately write off a man whose work I had admired and basically banish him from my thoughts... well, it's confronting, personally. It gives me pause.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

The Gaslamp Killer's new effort

Thank you for staying within the ambit of the thread, unlike that Kozelek derail.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Mark Edward Kozelek (born January 24, 1967) is an American singer, songwriter, guitarist, record producer and occasional actor. He is known as the vocalist and primary recording artist of the indie folk act Sun Kil Moon

Shit, my bad shagatha crustie.

[Famous Mortimer]

Anyway, I mention all of this not because I believe this counter-example proves that #MeToo has gone too far, or that all rape accusations are fake, or any of that MRA/incel nonsense. I think we all know how prevalent sexual assault is in the entertainment industry, as it is in sports, and anywhere you can find men who wield both money and fame. But realising that in this specific case there really were two sides to the story, and that I was happy to immediately write off a man whose work I had admired and basically banish him from my thoughts... well, it's confronting, personally. It gives me pause.

An alternate take on this is it happened exactly as originally alleged, but there was no way of proving it, the women were seen getting intoxicated at a previous point so there were grounds for doubt, and a financial payment was made to ensure the correct statement was given. Wouldn't be the first time.

But you've read more about it than me so if you (and lots of others, clearly) are happy with the explanation given, then so be it.

[shagatha crustie]

Shit, my bad shagatha crustie.

Wow, this has really upset you hasnt it?

[Oz Oz Alice]

The Gaslamp Killer account up thread makes me think of the accusations levelled at Michael Gira. There was a lot of ambiguity around what Larkin Grimm said and while she was challenged for her story changing that's just how things work. Your perceptions of a traumatic event do change. More details seep through in time. I'm very disappointed in myself for the way I reacted to it when it first came out because immersing myself in Swans back catalogue helped me deal with my own history of sexual abuse, whether or not Gira is a rapist.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Wow, this has really upset you hasnt it?

Ya missed the joke.

[shagatha crustie]

Ah. My bad.

[Famous Mortimer]

The Gaslamp Killer account up thread makes me think of the accusations levelled at Michael Gira. There was a lot of ambiguity around what Larkin Grimm said and while she was challenged for her story changing that's just how things work. Your perceptions of a traumatic event do change. More details seep through in time. I'm very disappointed in myself for the way I reacted to it when it first came out because immersing myself in Swans back catalogue helped me deal with my own history of sexual abuse, whether or not Gira is a rapist.

It made me glad I'm not the sort of person to get passionately into an artist or band and then be in the "fandom" (which is my least favourite word). I think Gira is probably innocent, but the initial statement from his wife about it was at best extremely unhelpful, and then the legions of fans whose...trying to find a good way to put this...dismissal of her allegations on the grounds of her mental health issues set a very worrying precedent for any woman with similar problems who is raped by someone in the public eye. [nb]those of you asking Flouncer for evidence of his strong opinion on Noodle Lizard may find some interesting exchanges in that thread[/nb]

And then there was Maynard Keenan from Tool, who even if he didn't rape that one woman who accused him, was revealed to be an utter piece of shit (both to women and vegans) so fuck him.

[sambwel]

An alternate take on this is it happened exactly as originally alleged, but there was no way of proving it, the women were seen getting intoxicated at a previous point so there were grounds for doubt, and a financial payment was made to ensure the correct statement was given. Wouldn't be the first time.

But you've read more about it than me so if you (and lots of others, clearly) are happy with the explanation given, then so be it.

Of course that's possible and it would usually be my take, but my understanding in this case is that the outcome of the settlement is the joint statement alone, no financial payment, no gag order, etc. It really sounds about as amicable as something like this could be. The exception to the rule perhaps? As a side note I should say that in light of all this I gave his new album a listen and it left me cold, despite being much like his old stuff that I used to enjoy. I guess having been a fan and gone off him, I can't easily get back into that old positive feeling I used to have with his stuff. If anything I guess it goes to show my view of the allegations and how that's all played out isn't terribly biased?

[phantom_power]

Also, if we are supposed to, quite rightly, believe women when they make these allegations, then we should also believe them when they retract or change those statements based on further discussion

[sambwel]

Quite. I mean, assuming all signs point to a lack of coercion.

[Famous Mortimer]

Also, if we are supposed to, quite rightly, believe women when they make these allegations, then we should also believe them when they retract or change those statements based on further discussion

I'd like to believe things were that simple - there are power imbalances in society, and pressures after the fact (which you mention, by saying "further discussion" and not "they remembered differently" - what do you think the discussions are about?) I would at least think twice about a retraction issued after several months of concerted abuse from an alleged rapist's fanbase, for example. Do you believe a woman when she calls the police in fear of her life from her violent partner, or the next day when she says she walked into a door?

[chveik]

Swans fans are absolute scum (the reddit ones anyway)

[Noodle Lizard]

[nb]those of you asking Flouncer for evidence of his strong opinion on Noodle Lizard may find some interesting exchanges in that thread[/nb]

Here it is: https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=52543.0

[Oz Oz Alice]

Swans fans are absolute scum (the reddit ones anyway)

I wasn't into them at the time being about 8 when she left (no excuse I know) but I feel like a lot of what made Swans so great left with Jarboe. In my personal opinion nothing since the reformation touches Soundtracks For The Blind or the early run up to and including Children of God. They're fucking phenomenal live of course but that's another thing.

[Noodle Lizard]

I wasn't into them at the time being about 8 when she left (no excuse I know) but I feel like a lot of what made Swans so great left with Jarboe. In my personal opinion nothing since the reformation touches Soundtracks For The Blind or the early run up to and including Children of God. They're fucking phenomenal live of course but that's another thing.

Oo I dunno. I have all the time in the world for anything up to/including Soundtracks For The Blind, but that run from The Seer to The Glowing Man is some of the best music ever produced, in my opinion. Still haven't given Leaving Meaning much of a chance.

[chveik]

I was really disappointed by Leaving Meaning but I should give it another go

regarding Jarboe, the song 'You See Through Me' on Drainland is quite disturbing, Gira is indirectly admitting that he was being quite nasty towards her.

[kalowski]

(I'll also add here, for info, that she also had and still has quite a high sex drive - her husband [also an old friend of mine] says it's verging on addiction, which he's struggling with now he's in his mid 50s).

Is she local?

[Pauline Walnuts]

Is she local?

You should know where yo mama lives.


The Killers' album is number one in the hit parade. album chart.