Sad ire: comedy, centrists and Corbyn.

[DrGreggles]

Is Corbyn exempt from satire then?

Of course not. But a smear campaign is not satire.

[chveik]

I guess in this case 'satire' means giving centrist dads some mild chuckles

[BlodwynPig]

I guess in this case 'satire' means giving centrist dads some mild chuckles

*Partridge sighs*

[Thursday]

Just for once, it would be nice to have these conversations without someone chiming in with a minor variation on "Oh so you think every comedian should agree with you eh???!!!" It's just so tiring.

[Brundle-Fly]

Just for once, it would be nice to have these conversations without someone chiming in with a minor variation on "Oh so you think every comedian should agree with you eh???!!!" It's just so tiring.

Who's done that?

[thenoise]

Who doesn't think strong leadership is important? Not sure that is a fetish exactly, but it is why your harmless ascetic dweeb Corbyn caricature would likely not have done wonders for his electoral chances, even if it may have endeared people to him as a man. But he did seem doomed to fail right from the earliest joke at his expense, ie that Tories had signed up to vote him in as leader to guarantee Labour's continued defeat.

I think there is a pretty sizable number of people that prefer a more collaborative style of leadership than a strong (in the Thatcher/Churchill mould) bloodyminded one, especially one like Boris that comes from the ruling class and has the arrogance to go with it. It's quite an English thing, I think, asking 'is he prime ministerial enough??' is a bit like asking if they are arrogant enough,plus of course that all important posh voice and mannerisms. It's far from universal anyway.
(not suggesting that Corbyn was especially collaborative btw, not least because no one would collaborate with him)

Endearing Corbyn is a man is precisely what was needed, there are a lot of estranged Lib Dems looking for a 'sensible' party to vote for, and Corbyn was continually painted as a threat and a menace. It's fine, I know how the news works, but it was never funny enough for satirists. They never quite found the comedy angle with the antisemitism and IRA sympathiser thing, probably because they didnt have much to work with.

There were multiple factors to the Conservative victory, the Red Wall didn't collapse because Northern working men were outraged by what the media told them about Corbyn's handling of antisemitism in the Labour Party. I never saw any serious accusations of racism levelled personally at Jezpeas, nor would I have believed them. As far as I could see, the problem was that a nice old-fashioned career backbencher in his twilight years had been spectacularly overpromoted by a rabid fanbase that included many noisy young stupid hateful intolerant revolutionary communist cunts. With these little demons hoisting him up, the caricature of the doddery jam making nerd would have seemed equally damning.

Well, a fuddy duddy old geography supply teacher hoisted to a position of power by a violent mob is an idea with a lot more comic potential than what we actually got. Why do you think satirists went with the Jew hater Corbyn angle instead?

[Puce Moment]

Thanks to the OP for posting this. I remember being shocked when Christie and Lee laid into him on their recent babysitter shows at the LST. It met with a muted response then.

At this point 'centrist' seems like a compliment for people like Ianucci, Brooker and Hislop who must think they are leftie simply because of the company they keep.

[shh]

I think it's kind of a bit forgotten how left wing Fry and Laurie's early stuff was . It was really good in a way which not many people have done, in that they were more about attacking right wing ideas rather any particular politician.

One of their pieces was a Wonderful Life pastiche showing what life would be like without Rupert Murdoch, ie repeating one of the most deluded metropolitan left-wing tropes. That sort of thinking certainly had a resurgence in December.
While I like their 'choice' sketch, you could argue it it, too, is highly reflective of their patrician attitudes. I can't imagine going back to four channels any more than Jaguar being re-nationalised.

[Thursday]

Thanks to the OP for posting this. I remember being shocked when Christie and Lee laid into him on their recent babysitter shows at the LST. It met with a muted response then.

Wait that's this?

[Brundle-Fly]

Of course not. But a smear campaign is not satire.

True, but I suppose a politician of any hue would consider being the target of a joke as a smear though. 

I think Larry David's Bernie Saunders impression on SNL got the balance right.

[NoSleep]

True, but I suppose a politician of any hue would consider being the target of a joke as a smear though.

If it was based upon something they weren't actually responsible for? That would merely be continuation of a running smear campaign.

[Old Nehamkin]

True, but I suppose a politician of any hue would consider being the target of a joke as a smear though. 

I don't think this is really true.

[TrenterPercenter]

Spitting Image found a universally distrusted target (regardless of politics, everybody thinks estate agents are pricks)......Problem is though, this sort of 'wishing death on hateful scum' position usually seems to come from self-righteous, embittered, snarling zealot types

Estate agents have a reputation for fucking about and lying to people that are llikely making the most important investment they will ever make.   That is why, the joke is funny via this releatable stereotype.  Why on earth are you acting like this joke is in anyway serious?! Spitting Image didn't really want people to kill other human beings that much is obvious but you couldn't help yourself with your little misery rant to go and try and crowbar in some bollocks about self-rigtheous types.  Yeah self-righteous types that go on about jokes about killing estate agents as if they were real threats.  Listen to yourself and your brassneck going on about "embittered snarling zealots" absolutely hilarious. 

There were multiple factors to the Conservative victory, the Red Wall didn't collapse because Northern working men were outraged by what the media told them about Corbyn's handling of antisemitism in the Labour Party.

Yes the vote in the North had been decreasing throughout the Blair years and then there was obviously Brexit which for a lot of people was seen as mancipation against all there jobs going to brown people.  This was worked via a covert operation on facebook where seemingly innocent people started conversations about Corbyns threat to UK (code for white) safety.

I never saw any serious accusations of racism levelled personally at Jezpeas

Mate.  There was literally interviews with Jewish people saying they would have to leave the country if he got in.  He was called a FUCKING RACIST in parliament by his own MP.  Saying that there were never any serious accusations is bollocks, they weren't serious because they were largely made up or spun but that doesn't mean the accusation itself isn't serious for anyone trying to appeal to a progressive base.

As far as I could see, the problem was that a nice old-fashioned career backbencher in his twilight years had been spectacularly overpromoted by a rabid fanbase that included many noisy young stupid hateful intolerant revolutionary communist cunts. With these little demons hoisting him up, the caricature of the doddery jam making nerd would have seemed equally damning.

You've clearly got a big chip on your shoulder which is probably why you have such a unsophisticated take on what actually happened.


Oooooh noisy were they.  Lol to the fuckin ol.

[Famous Mortimer]

Who's done that?

Curses! Foiled again by those dastardly centrist comedians! If only they'd fallen in line and been nice to Jeremy, his competence and electoral popularity would have shone like a beacon to the doubtful masses.

Is Corbyn exempt from satire then? Even Corbynites must've chuckled a bit when Stewart Lee called him Catweazle.

If you spent a tenth of second thinking about it, you'd know the answer to your own question. The only reason to ask it is to try and drag yet another conversation into the long grass (which, by dint of this reply, I suppose you have done). Well done on wasting both your and my time, I suppose.

[TrenterPercenter]

Is Corbyn exempt from satire then? Even Corbynites must've chuckled a bit when Stewart Lee called him Catweazle.

He isn't exempt, no-one is but in order for satire to be funny it needs to be a criticism of the establishment.  There were some vain attempts to do this by people like Frankie Boyle who would talk about his awaiting execution by MI6 balancing out the satirical take on Corbyns issues, this struck quite a different tone than than some of his guests "statements" which were always met with unease and muted laughter. 

That is the thing here, forget about Corbyn, this is about satire, if the rightwing tabloids, chat shows, the government and the allegdely neutral BBC are all saying something about an issue it isn't satire to repeat and side with it.

[Brundle-Fly]

If you spent a tenth of second thinking about it, you'd know the answer to your own question. The only reason to ask it is to try and drag yet another conversation into the long grass (which, by dint of this reply, I suppose you have done). Well done on wasting both your and my time, I suppose.

I'm not attempting to drag anything into the long grass. Sorry for wasting our time.

[Brundle-Fly]

He isn't exempt, no-one is but in order for satire to be funny it needs to be a criticism of the establishment.  There were some vain attempts to do this by people like Frankie Boyle who would talk about his awaiting execution by MI6 balancing out the satirical take on Corbyns issues, this struck quite a different tone than than some of his guests "statements" which were always met with unease and muted laughter. 

That is the thing here, forget about Corbyn, this is about satire, if the rightwing tabloids, chat shows, the government and the allegdely neutral BBC are all saying something about an issue it isn't satire to repeat and side with it.

I only asked this question because I don't watch HIGNFY anymore or watch political stand-ups. I wasn't that aware Corbyn was being so regularly smeared by comedians on TV. I'm just used to satire where everybody gets it in the neck.

[TrenterPercenter]

FWIW  I don't think the article is great with its myopic view on Corbyn.  There is much more stuff to be considered in regards to commissioning, programming and general broadcasting.  There is a stark unrepresentativeness of leftwing, actual leftwing, voices in our media.  That goes across nearly all news programming but also you notice that all the older male presenters are usually rightwing or have rightwing sympathies (Clarkson, Piers, Holmes, Schofield etc...) the only other flavour is good looking young male apolitical eunic.

We are saturated in in rightwing talking heads on a daily basis and that is the reason the country makes such poor political choices.  The one oasis that was deemed away from this was comedy, which is so completely leftwing in presentation that one comedian (Norcott) advertises himself as rightwing comedian (he isn't that rightwing) as it stands out.  I'd happily swap much of the "leftwing" comedians for leftwing economists and commentators across other programming.  This however is, of course, by design.

Comedians bang on about the honesty of comedy, likening themselves to the role of the Jester, but they forget to point out that the Jester was still in employ of the King, and was used as such in a tactical way.  Comedians can be leftwing because it can be safely dismissed as comedy and it gives the impression of representativeness when there isn't really anything there.   

For those bemoaning their comedic heroes, its a job, there is a lesson here in that telling leftwing jokes, is not the same as having leftwing views, they are jokes not views.

[TrenterPercenter]

I only asked this question because I don't watch HIGNFY anymore or watch political stand-ups. I wasn't that aware Corbyn was being so regularly smeared by comedians on TV. I'm just used to satire where everybody gets it in the neck.

When someone like deadringers regularly present a pretty damning stereotype of Diane Abbott and her being the most abused politician (who coincidently is also the first Black female MP) then this is problematic for satirical reasons and moves too close to bullying (likely via ignorance on DRs part).  That isn't to say Abbott is above being criticised either but comedy is about whether something is funny or not and that is down to material being presented and how it is handled.

[Chriddof]

I'd like to hear more about the Lee / Christie attack on Corbyn mentioned earlier.

[Brundle-Fly]

When someone like deadringers regularly present a pretty damning stereotype of Diane Abbott and her being the most abused politician (who coincidently is also the first Black female MP) then this is problematic for satirical reasons and moves too close to bullying (likely via ignorance on DRs part).  That isn't to say Abbott is above being criticised either but comedy is about whether something is funny or not and that is down to material being presented and how it is handled.

Agree. The pointed attacks on Abbott always made me feel uncomfortable.  The whole wrong shoe thing was despicable.

[Pink Gregory]

:|

I did, but that's not what we're talking about, is it.

[peanutbutter]

I'd like to hear more about the Lee / Christie attack on Corbyn mentioned earlier.

Not sure about an attack, but Lee definitely said some stuff along the lines of being politically homeless as someone with centre left beliefs at Snowflake/Tornado when I saw it. As far as I can recall that's as close as he got to saying anything explicitly about his own politics.

[TrenterPercenter]

There was never an "attack" by Lee, he was exasperated by Corbyn and his approach to Brexit.  Brexit is a big thing and lots of people have got the hump about what happened.  Lee also did routines supporting Corbyn, his cat routine is parodying the media propaganda around Corbyn for example.

[Thursday]

Sure, but with Lee, it's something I'd want to see the full context of, and even with that full context I'd hesitate to ever take anything he says at face value. Which is why I'm asking for the actual specifics.

Even the thing the article cites with his "stars of track field" https://www.stewartlee.co.uk/2019/12/mx2019-hny2020-to-all-from-the-metro-lib-elite-desk-of-stewart-lee/

Very possible it is actual feelings, but even then I'm never certain.

[hummingofevil]

There was never an "attack" by Lee, he was exasperated by Corbyn and his approach to Brexit.  Brexit is a big thing and lots of people have got the hump about what happened.  Lee also did routines supporting Corbyn, his cat routine is parodying the media propaganda around Corbyn for example.

It was in 2016 that Bridget Christie said about Corbyn "...and then he says nothing and what he does say is shit!" . This was definitely in response to Brexit.

Ironically, if you break down the numbers it seems 63% of Labour voters voted remain, which was seen as a damning inditement of Corbyn's inability to carry his own, whilst the Sturgeon was hailed for campaigning returning her solid remain vote even though the SNP split was 64-36%.

You can use this as more evidence of the way the facts were always twisted around Corbyn but there was definitely a feeling that he was somehow to blame for Brexit. I don't think it was conspiracy (at this point at least but a sense of frustration and people, including "leftie comedians" lashing out).

For balance, Lee/Christie are good friends with Josie Long and it was writing shows that were hour long devotions to Corbyn at the time.

[jobotic]

Autopsy Turvey forgets to mention Rik from the Young Ones

[Autopsy Turvey]

Estate agents have a reputation for fucking about and lying to people that are llikely making the most important investment they will ever make.   That is why, the joke is funny via this releatable stereotype.  Why on earth are you acting like this joke is in anyway serious?!

You've read the article linked in the OP? This silly little song is singled out as an example of the sort of 'radical' and 'iconoclastic opinions' that satire used to express in the good old days. I know, it's a fucking staggering leap of logic, and further weakens her argument, that is why I flagged it up.

I have no shoulder-chip against the noisy Momentum Corbynistas, how could I? I imagine it's only the more moderate Labourites who feel actual resentment towards them, for the work they did in losing Labour the election. As long as they're not allowed anywhere near power I can safely and happily laugh at them, but let's not pretend it's an unfair description.

Edit: they're like Rick from The Young Ones.

[Brundle-Fly]

Edit: they're like Rick from The Young Ones.

'Rik', please?

[peanutbutter]

Very possible it is actual feelings, but even then I'm never certain.

This is my problem with Lee these days tbh. That absolutely can be funny, or at least interesting, but I've gotten pretty tired of his approaches, Snowflake/Tornado was definitely veering away from "oooh, I wonder what parts of that he actually means?" to "I'm not sure I give a shit anymore..."