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March 29, 2024, 08:36:29 AM

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i'm thinking of ending things - upcoming Charlie Kaufman film

Started by olliebean, August 06, 2020, 05:41:26 PM

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peanutbutter

Loved the car journey to the house with the window wipers setting the mood, the cast carried the part in the house, after that it got bad and gradually got worse.

Hear a lot of people talking about there being a twist but I can't help but feel like you were suppose to (a)
Spoiler alert
realise something was up when she went into the room and saw the poetry book (and janitor outfits in the washing machine)
[close]
and (b)
Spoiler alert
have it confirmed with the A Woman Under the Influence review
[close]
.

Felt like Plemons absolutely failed with his role in that final scene too. He's been really good at doing his character type across a variety of roles but that asked for more and he failed miserably.


Probably would've benefited a bit from being in a cinema, I get the impression there was a decent amount of surround sound trickery going on at points that doesn't register as strongly with stereo at home.




Think Kaufman has been a bit of a spent force since Synecdoche tbh, as much as I liked Anomalisa it was basically him just redoing an idea he had done ages before and, as good as it was, it didn't feel in any way profound, just very relatable. It all felt so forced...

Dropshadow

I watched this an hour or so after I'd watched the first 3 episodes of the new "Fargo" and I was delighted to see the red-haired woman in both (the Philip Seymour Hoffman clone also was in both). She's good. I think I'd have probably liked the film more if I'd seen it before the series, but I didn't so I don't. Fargo is clearly superior. Film - 4 out of 10.

Obel

Does Jessie Buckley talk out of the side of her face in Fargo as well? I don't know why that annoys me so much. I figure it's something she does when she's doing an American accent.

popcorn

Like other people in this thread I found this film absolutely fascinating until the final portion. The sense of mood is compelling. Cosy but creepy at the same time. It's the kind of thing I could so easily found boring but it totally absorbed me. I think mainly because the lead performance is one of the most amazing I've seen in a film in a long time. I felt so sympathetic to her, and in awe of her, at the same time. I think I was quite in love with her, which I felt a bit guilty about once I learnt what it all meant.

It's literally a film of dream logic and yet I didn't find it frustrating or boring in the way that usually is. It's also one of the closest representations of how dreams feel I've seen on the screen - the way that things don't make sense, and you often notice that they don't, and you feel bothered by it, and yet you're also totally accepting of it.

There was so much about the editing and sound design and camerawork and set design I found fascinating. Like the camera moves to a position and you're like "why did it move over there" and then the characters walk over there and sit down. So it's like the camera is directing them, telling them what to do, instead of what you usually see, where characters do stuff and the camera follows them. Or you hear her voiceover as she's walking in and out of rooms, but it's treated as if it's diegetic - getting further away and closer again. So much playful weird disorienting stuff like that. Alice in Wonderland.

The ending didn't work for me. I didn't get what it meant until I did the reading. I got that there was clearly something to do with perception and identity going on but had no idea if it would ever amount to anything decipherable in a concrete way. The twist is fascinating and explains everything in a way I think is neat, but in execution that portion of the film just bored me, with none of what I'd loved about it until then.

Although it has clear similarities to his other stuff I wouldn't have guessed it was Kaufman. I think it's possibly less original than his more famous pieces. It felt like Get Out + Twin Peaks series 3 + Waiting for Godot. I kept thinking of Lynch not just because "boy what a mad film!!" but in more specific ways - the men doing menial jobs, the oddly cheap feeling of the fake Zemeckis movie, and the girls.




popcorn

Quote from: Noodle Lizard on September 28, 2020, 07:10:06 PM
I understand that excuse, and considered it myself once the film ended, but it's just not there in the presentation. Nothing really undermines or undersells or underanythings those long exchanges without the audience assuming "this must all be in the head of a pseud", and I'd argue the ending revelation doesn't do much to retroactively forgive them either.

For an (admittedly quite lazy) comparison; imagine you had a main character (sympathetic narrator, audience avatar) who spent most of the movie talking utter bollocks about phrenology or why David Irving is rad, but then in the last minute you discover that they're aaactually a character inside the head of someone else who may be a massive bigot - it might excuse it narratively, but you've still just watched a film which spends 90% of its runtime presenting that chatter as cool. It'd make you wonder a bit about the writer, at the very least.

I think it's a complicated thing to handle in storytelling - deliberate badness, poor dialogue etc. There's a very fine line to tread, and I think this film fell on the wrong side of it (if that was indeed the intention). I don't know how it was dealt with in the book, mind you, so I can't pin it all on Kaufman.

I'm very sympathetic to this post. I think versions of this problem turn up all the time.

Dumb example: the game Horizon Zero Dawn. I hate that title - it's trying to be two things at once. Horizon is a title, Zero Dawn is a title, but Horizon Zero Dawn is just a mess. A friend of mine told me that "oh the name makes sense in the story if you get far enough" (I didn't, I stopped playing because I hated the game full stop). I bet a million quid it doesn't, but let's just pretend for the sake of the argument that at some point in the story something happens that makes you realise oh, wait, actually that title was brilliant but I only realise now... well, that still means you experienced it as a shit title for a long time so it's not exactly a great title. A great title should be interesting, evocative, cool, etc even if you don't know why it's called that.

I had this problem at two points in ITOET. The first is that there is never any sense that these characters actually fancy each other at all. They have zero chemistry. OK, that is obviously established as a theme immediately - she's thinking of ending things, after all. But it made the initial premise a bit strange. I couldn't believe these two had hooked up in the first place, let alone spent six weeks as a couple. It felt more like they'd been set up on a blind date that wasn't working out. Now, the twist explains why their relationship was so without chemistry, obviously... but it still meant I experienced the first bit of the film being a bit distracted by it. It felt like a potential oversight than an intriguing deliberate mystery. So I don't see that as a perfect execution.

Likewise with her complaining about Baby It's Cold Outside. This is a woke-pop-culture cliche, it's a bit basic, and it was the first thing that made me think her character was actually a bit annoying. Until that point I'd thought she was a bit more sophisticated than that, though perhaps I'm just naive about the other stuff that was referenced (I don't know anything about A Woman Under the Influence). And during the movie-critic bit it was clear to me that reality was breaking down again in some way, it wasn't necessarily "her". Anyway, the twist, of course, suggests retroactively that this was an argument the guy was actually having with himself. Makes sense I guess, but the scene still felt cheap to me at the point I was actually experiencing it.

God I'm rambling, sorry, bye.

Inspector Norse

#35
Just finished this and liked it a lot. A bit uneven and some sequences -
Spoiler alert
the dancing and Plemons' song
[close]
- were nicely done but felt a bit too on-the-nose, too here-you-go-here's-a-dollop-of-clues. But beautifully framed and acted and I generally love films that fill your head with questions and ideas for two hours and this did that and then some. And I'm not sure if this is a strength or weakness but I found it was pretty easy to switch, in the last twenty minutes, from my initial interpretation -
Spoiler alert
janitor is aged Jake, girlfriend has Alzheimers and is reliving unclear fragments of her life
[close]
- to one closer to what I think you're supposed to get -
Spoiler alert
janitor is aged Jake whose own mind is collapsing and reimagining his life. Looking through the thread I think things like the swingset and Jimmy the dog are in there as memory cues, flashes of childhood randomly dropping in.
[close]

(Jake's mother should have been played by Allison Tolman or Kate Walsh, really)

peanutbutter

Quote from: Inspector Norse on January 02, 2021, 11:22:52 PM
to one closer to what I think you're supposed to get
Is there any ambiguity to it being this? From the point she recited the Pauline Kael review I thought it was pretty clear cut as to what it was doing and where it was going, as I recall it anyways.

One bit I've largely forgotten and can't remember the point of was the ice cream place, anyone care to explain what that whole bit was about?

Quote from: peanutbutter on January 03, 2021, 04:12:29 PM
Is there any ambiguity to it being this?

Not sure about the
Spoiler alert
mind collapsing
[close]
bit. I took it more as
Spoiler alert
he is a lonely, depressed shut-in who can only engage with the world through popular culture and his elaborate fantasies of a different life, such as one in which he is dating a woman he glimpsed once but never spoke to, with his own projection of what her personality would be. But due to his own depression and self-esteem issues even that fantasy turns into a scenario about her thinking of leaving him, and insecure memories about his parents, et cetera
[close]
.

Quote from: peanutbutter on January 03, 2021, 04:12:29 PM
One bit I've largely forgotten and can't remember the point of was the ice cream place, anyone care to explain what that whole bit was about?

There could be more symbolism afoot, but I took that scene as
Spoiler alert
the janitor fantasizing about showing off his imaginary girlfriend to the teenagers from school who make fun of him, though even in the fantasy he is afraid of them. The Lynchian vibes in that scene I think are in keeping with the ominous breaks with reality throughout the movie that signal to the viewer what is going on and that also represent the instability of this guy's mind/mental illness
[close]

KennyMonster


Catching up with Kermode's non-BBC podcast and he put this film in his Top ten worst films of 2020 (at number 9 I think).

This has kinda inspired me to watch it over the weekend, I've been doubting his judgment for a while now (how could he not despise Crazy Rich Asians as much as he despised Sex And The City II?!?!?!?).

He seems to be mostly made of blind spots these days ("oooh Richard Curtis films are marvellous, I've always loved them, even if the archives show this to be an Orwellian rewriting of history").


frajer

That's crackers. I didn't enjoy the film myself but it is definitely not bad, and it's among the more interesting films of 2020. Kermode's been on a sharp decline ever since he decided Jack Howard was worth doing a podcast with.

KennyMonster

I don't know who Jack Howard is apart from a guy who teams up with Mark sometimes on those podcasts.

Will I think this film better or worse than St Maud (Mark's bestest film from 2020 - which I didn't like much)?

frajer

Howard might well be an alright fella but I just can't stand him on those pods. Everything he says reminds me of Partridge telling people that his favourite thing about The Godfather - can he shock you? - is the camera angles.

Waking Life

Kaufman namechecked Kermode in his novel, effectively slating him. Kermode sees it as revenge for his review of Synecdoche, but I have no doubt it might have soured his view for the most part.

I enjoyed this film but not sure if I can be bothered rewatching. The interpretations above are interesting and makes me want to rewatch though.

KennyMonster

I enjoyed Anomilisa, maybe not loved it, not interested in re-watching it, but I rarely re-watch any film.

I don't think I've seen any of his others.

KennyMonster

I enjoyed it, although like many have said here, the ending's execution wasn't the greatest.

The scenes in the house reminded me of Pinters plays where things keep contradicting themselves and the dreamlike quality that the house isn't totally 'real' , there's a dark void at the end of the hall, like there's nothing there beyond what you can see etc.[nb]The Pinter play I'm thinking of was called The Room[/nb]

zomgmouse

Quote from: Junglist on September 05, 2020, 01:11:40 PM
I couldn't help comparing it to the book and I felt the last half hour was absolute piss. Its so much tighter in the novel. It lost a lot of its impact. Loved it up to that point.

Im generally a fan of Kaufman too.

Agree with this. Knowing what was coming from reading the book I was forgiving it for the first three-quarters expecting it to be a build-up to a big reveal but then it just slobbered and fell over.


dissolute ocelot

Quote from: KennyMonster on May 07, 2021, 10:27:04 AM
Catching up with Kermode's non-BBC podcast and he put this film in his Top ten worst films of 2020 (at number 9 I think).
Kermode can be an entertaining broadcaster and writer, but his opinions are nonsense.

Does he object to all Kaufman's films because he things cinema should be a roller-coaster ride of emotion rather than attempting to appeal to the brain?

Bad Ambassador

Quote from: dissolute ocelot on May 10, 2021, 08:35:00 AM
Kermode can be an entertaining broadcaster and writer, but his opinions are nonsense.

Does he object to all Kaufman's films because he things cinema should be a roller-coaster ride of emotion rather than attempting to appeal to the brain?

He probably praised the Twilight films for the same reason.

Lungpuddle

Quote from: Bad Ambassador on May 10, 2021, 11:16:10 AM
He probably praised the Twilight films for the same reason.

He praised The Dark Knight Rises after being lukewarm-to-negative about The Dark Knight. I'm not a huge fan of either Batman or Nolan (although I can enjoy both a lot a times!) but this is clearly a batshit opinion. I'm posting in this thread to moan about Kermode, to be honest. I like the dynamic between him and Mayo on the radio, I think they work well together.

I really liked the first half an hour or so of I'm Thinking of Ending Things, and I think Kaufman's films are generally pretty great. Not going to read his book, mind, I wasted too much time on Infinite Jest in my teens.

KennyMonster

#51
So what's the verdict about that 'Sydneyedosh(?) New York' movie?

Its on Prime so I can see it this weekend maybe.

I know nothing about it.

popcorn

I love it loads. A lot of people find it too long and heavy.[nb]titter![/nb]

Wet Blanket

It's very much of a type with I'm Thinking of Ending Things in terms of intertextual flimflammery and surrealism, but still has the emotional heft of his more accessible films like Eternal Sunshine. It's arguably his best work but it's also bleak as a bastard. I mean utterly devastating.

Blinder Data

I finished this today under circumstances (watched over two days, paused multiple times, on low volume with subtitles so as not to wake sleeping baby) which certainly would have affected my engagement with the film.

With that caveat, it didn't do much for me and the last act didn't help my appreciation. It might be a personal thing but I couldn't get on with the heightened hammy acting of Toni Collette and David Thewlis. The film frequently felt too obviously and self-consciously "dreamlike" (e.g. bad aging make-up at the end) in comparison with the subtleties of Lynch at his peak or Kaufman's other works.

RE: the meaning/twist, I prefer it tied up neat with a bow or surreal to the point where it almost defies you to interpret. I didn't care enough about any of the characters or concepts (cartoon pig - mate) to go deeper to work out why x might mean y. I didn't hate the film and some of the sequences and acting were really good. But it did NOT need to be so long.

6/10