Chart Music Podcast 2 (Man Sound) - ITS PIPOU TIME!

[edon]

I'd like them to really get some more iconic episodes instead of the random ones.

But they're the problem, Savile's on so many of the particularly notable editions, and I presume they only want to do him once or twice. I know the contributors still haven't covered some of their personal favourite chart acts yet though - Pricey's still not talked about the Manics or Dexys (the former's IRA complaint baiting performance of Faster would be a good one to hear him on), Neil and Al haven't had many proper chances to talk about rap so Public Enemy would be ideal soon, etc.

I notice Stubbsy hasn't been on a 1982 episode yet, even though I'm sure he's said in his writing before that he considers it to be a zenith of sorts for UK pop. Would've thought he preferred 79, but that year does have popular stuff like ABC, The Associates, and New Gold Dream era Simple Minds going for it, among more, so I can see why he likes it so much.

[DrGreggles]

Absolutely, now they have the backing of great big owl. I'd like them to really get some more iconic episodes instead of the random ones.

Not for me. The random aspect is part of the appeal.

[edon]

A random, unremarkable episode of TOTP can sometimes say a lot more about the state of pop music and culture at that time than some of the ones built up as 'iconic', but at the same time a lot of the post 1985 ones are either just shit or dull - sometimes down to the show's own format, not even the songs on. I don't see CMP running out of steam any time soon, but Al probably should have some level of awareness over what editions he chooses instead of it being completely random, especially with the ones from after 1987 or so.

[kidsick5000]

But they're the problem, Savile's on so many of the particularly notable editions, and I presume they only want to do him once or twice. I know the contributors still haven't covered some of their personal favourite chart acts yet though - Pricey's still not talked about the Manics or Dexys (the former's IRA complaint baiting performance of Faster would be a good one to hear him on), Neil and Al haven't had many proper chances to talk about rap so Public Enemy would be ideal soon, etc.

I notice Stubbsy hasn't been on a 1982 episode yet, even though I'm sure he's said in his writing before that he considers it to be a zenith of sorts for UK pop. Would've thought he preferred 79, but that year does have popular stuff like ABC, The Associates, and New Gold Dream era Simple Minds going for it, among more, so I can see why he likes it so much.

And for all the references, no Man 2 Man meets Man Parrish

[kidsick5000]

Sarah and Neil, episode 37, 'ITV Digital And Chill'

Listening back to their recounting of MM's last days is fascinating. Sarah's dawning realisation that utopia isn't what it's meant to be. The panicked pandering to PR firms, focus groups and an increasingly narrow audience. Plus the mothership giving more power and resources to the NME.
But it's also funny (in an odd way) that Neil's argument goes awry due to his loathing of Mark Sutherland - refused to do his job properly, caused £3k damage to a hotel, went off to get high while he was meant to be working, fabricated the facts in his column - and then feeling aggrieved when Sutherland has a go at him for it.
I know Sutherland led the final spiral down the bowl, and that Anti-garage manifesto is appalling, but there's a touch of the Vicky Pollard to some of his anger

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

I know what you mean, but it's important to remember that Mark Sutherland was an intimidating ox of a man who didn't have a fucking clue. He couldn't write, he had terrible taste in music (I don't think he had any actual interest in music), and he had absolutely no idea how to deal with people in a reasonable, sympathetic way.

He was a company man through and through.

[Jockice]

(Also, Are You Affiliated? is a corker. I had no idea it was so old)

As mentioned on the musical opinions you don't understand thread, a group of friends and I had a virtual jukebox night recently. This was the opening track. Because the bloke who set the whole thing up likes it. I hadn't heard it for many a year though. Apart from that and the closing track (Zoom by Fat Larry's Band. Because we all used to sing along to the chorus in the pub) it was all done at random though. And I'll just repeat it was the best night out or in I've had all year.

[kidsick5000]

Mark Sutherland was an intimidating ox of a man

Look more like Peter Egan here https://www.musicweek.com/user/read/99944

He might want to boost his online profile. The first search for Mark Sutherland does not get favourable results.

[Jockice]

Look more like Peter Egan here https://www.musicweek.com/user/read/99944

He might want to boost his online profile. The first search for Mark Sutherland does not get favourable results.

Are him and Steve Sutherland brothers? Do they make others quiver?

(I have a cousin whose surname is Sutherland incidentally. But he's an only child.)

[buzby]

Got through the next part with the Anfiled Rap in. Christ, Price seems to have a sense of humour failure in this episode, and it was inevitable that Bee was going to dismiss it out of hand. Thank God that Al took it in the spirit it was created - both Johnston and Barnes were big rap fans. Also, Simon - keep your 'Uncle Tomming' aspersions to yourself - have you ever heard John Aldridge talk?

Moved onto the next part with Pump Up The Bitter. Now, the record is audio cancer, but it's clear that neither Price or Bee have ever been in a working men's club, the 'wheeltappers and shunters' vibe continued well into the 90s. Then we get onto the horrific 'Mrs Patel' segment, which is by far the worst crime on the record. However, it then becomes a 10-minute discussion about how it's a slight on Ofra Haza - IT'S NOT EVEN HER ON PUMP UP THE VOLUME! The bit they are 'parodying' is a sample from 'Abu Zeluf ' by Dunya Yunis (a Lebanese singer) from a 1976 compilation of Islamic songs, which had previously been sampled on Byrne & Eno's Regiment from My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts.

That's what happens when you use Wikipedia for research - the Wiki article still maintains Pump Up The Volume sampled Im Nin'Alu, despite the Dunya Yunis sample being known for years. Ofra Haza was sampled on Coldcut's remix of Paid In Full, which is why Im Nin'Alu has been rereleased and is in the charts. Al must have realised the mistake and tries to mention how influential Eric B and Rakim were in the charts at the time, but again it's use on Paid In Full was totally down to Coldcut.

We then get Bee's piss weak defence of how lovely the lyric thief and preening fuck Pellow is and his band's insipid rendition of a Beatles song is is after Star Turn and the same level of praise for the bland, twee shite of Fairground Attraction. This episode is making me actively angry. I figured it was going to be trouble from the start as I've never really got on with the opinions of one of the contributors.

The I Want You Back 88 Remix was by PWL's 'Mixmaster' Phil Harding. It had been remixed and rereleased due to it's use as the basis for Dancin' Danny D and Norman Cook's 'Six Minutes Of Soul' remix of I Know You Got Soul that had been put out the previous February following the success of Coldcut's Paid In Full remix.

The superfluous 1988 remix of Blue Monday originated from Quincy Jones (they were signed to his QWest label in the US) and them getting a massive tax bill after finally getting some money from the royalties off the sales of the Substance compilation album.

[grainger]

I've had similar issues with CM in the past. Savaging a performance for factually-incorrect reasons. (I'm not going to bother saying which one, because I don't want to argue over the specifics). Admittedly, the performance in question was something they'd diss for other reasons anyway, but...

I still love CM. It's great to hear hatred or love of a track expressed so articulately, even if I often disagree.

I really hate the Blue Monday 88 remix. Pointless twiddly overdubs, when the original's minimalism is a central pillar of the track. Also, those twiddly noises are hard to un-hear: it was years before I could listen to the original without my brain "drawing them in".

I enjoyed this episode though.

[Better Midlands]

I really hate the Blue Monday 88 remix. Pointless twiddly overdubs, when the original's minimalism is a central pillar of the track. Also, those twiddly noises are hard to un-hear: it was years before I could listen to the original without my brain "drawing them in".

I quite like the 88 remix, I was a bit young to be over familiar with the original so it was only over subsequent years that I realised what had been overdubbed. I like the added percussion and the bassline is nice and squelchy, as mentioned it's all pretty unnecessary. I read an interview with Mark Kamins (Dancetreria DJ, New York) where he said that he did a lot of US mixes of UK bands of the time and basically just beefed up the bottom end/drums for American dancefloors - so I guess it's following that trend really.

[buzby]

I quite like the 88 remix, I was a bit young to be over familiar with the original so it was only over subsequent years that I realised what had been overdubbed. I like the added percussion and the bassline is nice and squelchy, as mentioned it's all pretty unnecessary. I read an interview with Mark Kamins (Dancetreria DJ, New York) where he said that he did a lot of US mixes of UK bands of the time and basically just beefed up the bottom end/drums for American dancefloors - so I guess it's following that trend really.

It was the first New Order CD single I bought, having just got a CD player.

John Potoker did the legwork for Jones in the remix - he also did loads of US mixes of British artists, but was was mostly known for his Phil Collins remixes, FFS!. Bernard did record a new vocal take for it (at the same time as the aborted Sunkist ad) but they decided not to use it. It's the 'incogruous vocal sample scattergun' method that was the style at the time that made it sound dated really quickly. There is a demo version that's the same mix minus most of the vocal samples that sounds a lot better (there were also two alternative demo versions with samples that sound even worse than the released version).

[Jockice]

I quite like the 88 remix, I was a bit young to be over familiar with the original so it was only over subsequent years that I realised what had been overdubbed. I like the added percussion and the bassline is nice and squelchy, as mentioned it's all pretty unnecessary. I read an interview with Mark Kamins (Dancetreria DJ, New York) where he said that he did a lot of US mixes of UK bands of the time and basically just beefed up the bottom end/drums for American dancefloors - so I guess it's following that trend really.

They've literally just played it on Six Music as I was reading this thread. Didn't like the original much, don't like the remix. Although the video for it features an identical wind-up frog to the one I had in my teens. Which I shoplifted from Redgates in Sheffield.

[grainger]

ISTR if you ask Alexa to play Blue Monday, she plays the remix, so I wonder if that will become the defacto "standard version" over time?

[Better Midlands]

There is a demo version that's the same mix minus most of the vocal samples that sounds a lot better

You're quite right, I'd never heard that - sounds really good to me. I like John Potoker's work, he did a lot of remixes with Francois Kervorkian and Jellybean. His remix of Sledgehammer is excellent, one of the first 12"s I bought and definitely got me into remixes - I like the Phil Collins ones. To bring things back round to New Order it's got a nice Peter Saville cover.

[Better Midlands]

That's what happens when you use Wikipedia for research - the Wiki article still maintains Pump Up The Volume sampled Im Nin'Alu, despite the Dunya Yunis sample being known for years.

Just remembered 'cos I mentioned him earlier, Mark Kamins reckons he was responsible for that vocal ending up on PUTV.

https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2014/02/mark-kamins-interview

How did things come to a close at Danceteria?

I went to open my own club, which was called the Harem, and I rented out a belly dance studio in Time Square at 48th Street and Eighth Avenue. God, why did I leave? I just think I got fed up. Well, actually, I started getting a lot of work in the studio and I wanted to DJ something new. I started this club called the Harem where I had five Turkish musicians behind me who played live with instrumental house tracks that I would play. It was completely spontaneous. It was about me being more of an artist than a DJ. There was an English band came down – "pump up the volume, pump up the volume, dance" – remember those guys?

M/A/R/R/S.

M/A/R/R/S, OK. They came one night with a white label. And I played the white label, and then I would play an Egyptian singer, a cappella on top of M/A/R/R/S. So they went back to London and remixed it with my Arabic a cappella.

[edon]

I'm not sure Bee or Pricey themselves are at fault too much for the latest episode not being of the same standard of the last couple. They did alright on that August 1995 one previously, mainly because there was mileage to be had out of Britpop, Romo, etc. It's just a terrible episode of TOTP that happened to bring out some of the worst we've seen in them, and I doubt any of the other contributors would have improved things if they were on instead, even Taylor.

Al could've easily done better; 1988 would've been seen in a more genuinely positive light if they'd just covered a different show from that year. There was still stuff around which created notable TOTP moments. We Call It Acieed and Steve Wright in a smiley face shirt contributing to the tabloid panic, All About Eve and their adventures in miming technical issues, there was so much more that could've been done.

[Nelson]

I'm a bit surprised at the stick this episode is getting. Maybe it's because I was 14 when this episode went out but I enjoyed it. But my delight at hearing Prefab Sprout getting unanimous praise might have coloured my response.  I was a bit worried that TKORAR would get a lukewarm reaction.

I suppose some of the chat (Wet Wet Wet) was forgettable and I'm a bit surprised that they skipped over Sgt Pepper Knew My Father so dismissively.

[Brundle-Fly]

That was me and I stand by it. Bland, tasteful, worthy stuff that's well crafted and won't upset the oldies. You can add Elvis Costello from that period in too, ach may as well go the whole hog....later Orange Juice, later Squeeze, The Beautiful South, Deacon Blue, The Kane Gang, Del Amitri, Then Jerico, Danny Wilson, Hue and Cry, Fairground Attraction, Texas, The Christians....

I mean I could go on but  it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Costello in the late eighties recorded two quite difficult and political albums at this point in his career:,Spike and Mighty Like The Rose. Hardly bland. Given, the singles Veronica and The Other Side Of Summer were quite poppy but also bloody good. Count me as another fan of Prefab Sprout here and I wasn't an oldie in 1988.  Also Hourglass by Squeeze was a TUNE!

[dr beat]

Also, Simon - keep your 'Uncle Tomming' aspersions to yourself - have you ever heard John Aldridge talk?

Yeah, as someone of that vernacular persuasion (well a bit) I didn't care for that either - are we all meant to get elocution lessons? Is that not code-switching?

To be fair though I did think that while there was an unusually angry vibe in some of this episode, I've heard it in full a couple of times now and it was absent in plenty of other bits. I do wonder if it might be down to a bit of covid-related ennui and perhaps feeling pressure to get the thing done.  It sounds like Al and Simon in particular have had a hard time of it recently.

[edon]

I dunno, I think we've seen that level of vitriol from Taylor before sometimes (Toyah and Geldof spring to mind), but it did seem odd coming from Simon at certain points. I remember him mentioning having a real distaste for Loadsamoney in one of his previous episodes, so I wasn't surprised Enfield got it in the neck over both fair and unfair issues, but the contempt for Star Turn really was considerable. Appalling, most definitely, but it surely isn't the worst thing they've covered so far, and can't be among the lowest lows of TOTP either?

[buzby]

To bring things back round to New Order it's got a nice Peter Saville cover.

Saville's work on Gabriel's So and it's singles was largely recycled from what he did for New Order's Low Life the year earlier.

Just remembered 'cos I mentioned him earlier, Mark Kamins reckons he was responsible for that vocal ending up on PUTV.

https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2014/02/mark-kamins-interview

The club night that Kamins is taking about was The Harem, which he started after leaving the Danceteria in 1985. Kamins was well known at that time for his use of the Im Nin'Alu acapella in particular, which led to him producing the Gates Of Heaven remix (which uses the Eric B and Rakim 'Dance' sample from Pump Up The Volume) for the US re-release of the track in 1988. Given his friendship with New Order, and that timeframe, I can well believe he may have been the influence behind Abu Zeluf being sampled on Angel Dust on the Brotherhood album from 1986. Mike Pickering had also heard Kamins play Fadela's N'Sel Fik there and convinced Tony Wilson to licence it for release on Factory in November 1987.

Dave Dorrell had been over to New York in 83-84 and met Mark Kamins when he was DJing at Save The Robots, but that was long before he and CJ Mackintosh got involved with MARRS. In 1987 Dorrell was busy running his Love At The Wag and RAW club nights (with Mackintosh DJing).

Their initial work on the track took one day (after getting the phone call in the morning to come to Blackwing where the Youngs were working on it - Martin Young had worked with Dorrell previously on his MTV idents) for which they were paid £200. That was the original 5:08 12" mix that got test pressed and promoed in July 1987. The feedback it was getting in clubs led to them being asked back to produce the remix that added a lot more samples and scratching (including the sample of Abu Zeluf) and 7" edit. The original 12" mix was released on the 24th of August with the remix and 7" edit a week later.

The 'Music In The world Of Islam' series and the volume the sample comes from was only released in the UK. When asked about it in a recent interview, Mackintosh said:

Somebody – probably Dave – gave me the record and told me to give it a listen. I found that sample, and it sort of worked. It's actually sped up, the original track was at 33rpm, but on Pump Up The Volume, it's at 45.

There is an excellent article on Dounia Younes, the history of the recording and how she never saw a penny from it here.

[Egyptian Feast]

I dunno, I think we've seen that level of vitriol from Taylor before sometimes (Toyah and Geldof spring to mind), but it did seem odd coming from Simon at certain points. I remember him mentioning having a real distaste for Loadsamoney in one of his previous episodes, so I wasn't surprised Enfield got it in the neck over both fair and unfair issues, but the contempt for Star Turn really was considerable. Appalling, most definitely, but it surely isn't the worst thing they've covered so far, and can't be among the lowest lows of TOTP either?

I've been trying to think of a TOTP performance I've hated more since the repeats started and still can't think of an alternative. What do you regard as the lowest lows of TOTP or acts discussed on Chart Music?

[DrGreggles]

I think it's definitely the worst one CM has covered, but that's the random nature of it I suppose. There's plenty of gold in discussing shit acts/performances, but some things are just too shit.
I suppose the 2 Man Sound episode would have looked fairly non-descript upon initial inspection.

[edon]

Have to say, I think Convoy G.B. is probably worse than Pump Up The Bitter. Out of pure failure at what it's attempting to do, it eclipses the latter in my mind.

And that 1996 episode they covered this year was truly dreadful. At least this May 88 edition had a decent Prince single going for it, and one or two other things if you can enthuse yourself enough. The high point of the 96 one was a weak Menswear ballad, whilst the lowest low was Oasis getting on, even weeks after they'd already dropped from the #1 spot. Summed up everything that can be hated about the period.

[Brundle-Fly]

I like the way they cover random nondescript TOTP episodes. It gives a more honest perspective on pop music and we are only getting the perspective from ex-Melody Maker journalists here. One Two man's Fish from Marillion, is another man's Poison.

[Norton Canes]

Never listened to any of these - has Taylor ever had a chance to comment on The The? Seem to remember a Facebook post of his really laying into Matt Johnson.

[Edit: Not personally - just his over-earnest lyrics]

[kidsick5000]

I've been trying to think of a TOTP performance I've hated more since the repeats started and still can't think of an alternative. What do you regard as the lowest lows of TOTP or acts discussed on Chart Music?

I'll be interested to see what they make of Shut Up And Dance's exclusive remix of Raving I'm Raving.

[edon]

I notice the BBC have now just announced a drama series about Savile's life, death, and the fallout from it. Wonder if that's going to make any difference or influence on Al's intent to cover an episode with him in it.