Topic: Chart Music Podcast 2 (Man Sound) - ITS PIPOU TIME!

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

Hey I said I was still enjoying the show regardless, no need to double down on this truly ludicrous take.

No offence intended, I hope you enjoy the podcast!

[Rizla]

I love how Neil is just fucking straight down the hard-line, if you like morrissey you are a racist cunt. If you like oasis you are a union flag waving brexiter.

It does take over his critical analysis of the actual music in hand.

Morrissey's music is racist though, lyrically certainly. And the music of Oasis, I would argue, is backward looking, unimaginitive and exceptionalist.

[Seedsy]

Morrissey's music is racist though, lyrically certainly. And the music of Oasis, I would argue, is backward looking, unimaginitive and exceptionalist.

Of course. And as I said maybe I'm being overly touchy.
I think all four of the smiths studio albums are class.

As for oasis, they are the first band I fell In love with when I was 13 in 1994. I still love their first 2 albums.
To me now, noel gallagher now is just a tory cunt. Hiding behind a very fading  (new) Labour Red flag
And recently Liam has showed a different side to his musical output. Voting green, and being in the early days of lockdown good craic.

[Dusty Substance]

Just want to briefly echo the praise for the outstanding Chart Music podcast. I often argue that podcasts need to be shorter to get me to listen to them but these recent four hour episodes have been absolutely wonderful. Although I don't always agree with everything they have to say, their descriptions, zingers, observations and remarks are always beautifully put. Which makes it only more depressing that the Melody Maker has long ceased to be and none of them seem to have a steady music writing job any more.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Liked the first episode I listened to. But in foolishly keeping with my normal podcast routine I'm currently in the emergency room after continuously running on the treadmill for five hours.

Morrissey's music is racist though, lyrically certainly.

That seems a bit of a stretch. He has a couple ill advised solo tracks that become much more problematic in light of political views that he only clearly started espousing decades later in the mid 2000s, but the Smiths?

I've always found the controversy about "Panic" to be fairly ridiculous.

(Though at the same time I assume he was privately a bit of a xenophobic bigot all along, which having passed through the grapevine is probably why Morrissey-being-racist became a thing as early as the late 80s/early 90s despite very tenuous evidence at the time. No smoke without fire et cetera)

[Brundle-Fly]

I find it fascinating how precocious they were at twelve years old about pop music. "I preferred the early Smiths singles". Really?  At that age, I pretty much liked everything in the charts and had no opinion one way or the other. True, my music tastes were finding their feet then but I was more interested in Curlywurlies, Atari, Letraset transfers and Tania James from 2B in 1978. I was more discerning about stuff going on in my favourite comics, films and tv programmes than pop, I suppose? eg 1960s Tom & Jerry not being as good as 1950's Tom & Jerry and the efficiency of new Doctor Who assistants.

[shiftwork2]

I was looking forward to Neil's take on The Smiths.  It was a hard listen though.  He's around my age but he obviously didn't have my simple privilege of being white in the 1980s.  To hear that he liked the very early Smiths but then quickly realised he was excluded, or at the very least not actively included, was just painful.  Like a lot of people I'm having to now try and reconcile how much that band meant to me with the realisation that the singer had a hateful vision of Britain, of which Bengali In Platforms and Asian Rut were just the start.

[Brundle-Fly]

I was looking forward to Neil's take on The Smiths.  It was a hard listen though.  He's around my age but he obviously didn't have my simple privilege of being white in the 1980s.  To hear that he liked the very early Smiths but then quickly realised he was excluded, or at the very least not actively included, was just painful.  Like a lot of people I'm having to now try and reconcile how much that band meant to me with the realisation that the singer had a hateful vision of Britain, of which Bengali In Platforms and Asian Rut were just the start.

Not forgetting The National Front Disco that he performed at Madstock 1992 draped in a Union Jack with a huge projection of two skinhead girls behind him. If only he draped himself in a black & white chequered 2Tone cape, how things might have been different. He was not bottled off stage though. Complete mythness. 

[shiftwork2]

The National Front Disco that he performed at Madstock 1992 draped in a Union Jack with a huge projection of two skinhead girls behind him.

Ha, that was when he sang 'London is dead' to a Finsbury Park-full of Madness fans.  Quack quack oops.

I saw him in 1992 at Alexandra Palace and those same backdrops were used.  Others included Charlie Richardson of the charming Richardson family.  What a nob.

[Rizla]

I may just possibly be generalising somewhat here, but show me a fully grown adult who lists Madness, The Smiths or the The Jam as their favourite band(s) and I'll show you someone who's either a racist or an unimaginitive thicko.

[famethrowa]

I was desperately trying to remember the word they had for flared trousers from the early episodes, luckily the latest 1975 episode set me straight. SAXONS! Actually I guess the correct use is "a massive pair of saxons".

https://twitter.com/simon_price01/status/1279025552968597504

[Neomod]

I may just possibly be generalising somewhat here, but show me a fully grown adult who lists Madness, The Smiths or the The Jam as their favourite band(s) and I'll show you someone who's either a racist or an unimaginitive thicko.

Did you get beaten up by someone with a quiff wearing a parka who then proceeded to 'Nutty Walk' down the street?

[Brundle-Fly]

I may just possibly be generalising somewhat here, but show me a fully grown adult who lists Madness, The Smiths or the The Jam as their favourite band(s) and I'll show you someone who's either a racist or an unimaginitive thicko.

I think you’re massively generalising. I’m an adult fan of two of the Southern bands In your trio and like to think of myself of neither being a racist or unimaginitive thicko, and I suspect several of the CMP team would similarly defend themselves.

[Rizla]

I think you’re massively generalising. I’m an adult fan of two of the Southern bands In your trio and like to think of myself of neither being a racist or unimaginitive thicko, and I suspect several of the CMP team would similarly defend themselves.

Hmm. To back down...or to DOUBLE DOWN? Fuck it, THE SAME GOES FOR OASIS, FIGHT ME YOU BASTARDS

[Crabwalk]

It does take over his critical analysis of the actual music in hand.
Saying that, I do genuinely believe he hates indie white rock music on its musical merits.

He loves or hates white indie music on merit. He hero-worships Throwing Muses, for example.

[Satchmo Distel]

I love how Neil is just fucking straight down the hard-line, if you like morrissey you are a racist cunt. If you like oasis you are a union flag waving brexiter.
He has lived a life in the UK I could never imagine living.
It does take over his critical analysis of the actual music in hand.
Saying that, I do genuinely believe he hates indie white rock music on its musical merits.
I think I'm just a bit touchy as I like alot of that music and i
like to think I'm not a big racist apologist

But it leads him to make basic errors like not knowing that Johnny Marr was strongly influenced by Chic (one of his sons is called Nile).

[Brundle-Fly]

He loves or hates white indie music on merit. He hero-worships Throwing Muses, for example.

And Neil even conceded once that he probably missed out some good stuff in indie rock during the mid nineties because he was such a bloody-minded angry hip-hop head. I remember Neil's writing back then and he regularly had steam coming out his ears in his pieces. I think this was when they were discussing Blur's Girls And Boys on the 94' ep.

[jamiefairlie]

And Neil even conceded once that he probably missed out some good stuff in indie rock during the mid nineties because he was such a bloody-minded angry hip-hop head. I remember Neil's writing back then and he regularly had steam coming out his ears in his pieces. I think this was when they were discussing Blur's Girls And Boys on the 94' ep.

Quite. Having a blanket hatred of a genre just because a tiny minority of its artists have dodgy views is absurd. It would be easy to point to the crass misogyny of some rap artists but what’s the point in painting them all as a result? You’d have to also hate all classic rock artists due to widespread sexual predator behaviours of many.

I think The Jam stuff still stands up today (anyway as far as I know Weller’s been pretty sound in his views), The Smiths have fallen in my estimation based on their music and Oasis were always awful.

[Johnboy]

another great episode, I remember this totp well

Neil and Taylor work really well together don't they, I know that's bloody obvious but I'm just realising it now plus they're just about a year younger than me so it's resonance all round.

I reckon if I do a relisten which I know will be fruitful, I'm going to do episodes with Taylor, he's just a goldmine.

Have to say Neil's anecdote about what someone said at the cinema in the 80s was compelling, that's the sort of stuff I keep listening for, these priceless slivers of social history.

Anyway not only am i grateful that Chart Music exists and is mint - it was Chart Music that led me to this forum where I feel very at home.

*(lines up a playlist of leader of the gang, rock with you and the headmaster ritual)*

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

He loves or hates white indie music on merit. He hero-worships Throwing Muses, for example.

Exactly. Neil doesn't hate white indie rock music on general principle, that's an absurdly reductive suggestion.

But it leads him to make basic errors like not knowing that Johnny Marr was strongly influenced by Chic (one of his sons is called Nile).

So? The CM gang aren't infallible, they get things wrong sometimes as we all do. I don't mean WRONG in terms of their opinions; even when I disagree with them, I enjoy hearing what they have to say. The occasional factual error is allowable, and there's often someone on hand to politely correct them.

[dr beat]

And Neil even conceded once that he probably missed out some good stuff in indie rock during the mid nineties because he was such a bloody-minded angry hip-hop head. I remember Neil's writing back then and he regularly had steam coming out his ears in his pieces. I think this was when they were discussing Blur's Girls And Boys on the 94' ep.

Ah yes, memories of that Neds Atomic Dustbin review.

[McChesney Duntz]

That seems a bit of a stretch. He has a couple ill advised solo tracks that become much more problematic in light of political views that he only clearly started espousing decades later in the mid 2000s, but the Smiths?

Certainly "A Rush and A Push and the Land Is Ours" is pretty barefacedly dodgy in retrospect:

A rush and a push and the land that
We stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave
...
A rush and a push and the land that
We stand on is ours
It has been before
So why can't it be now?
And people who are weaker than you and I
They take what they want from life

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Certainly "A Rush and A Push and the Land Is Ours" is pretty barefacedly dodgy in retrospect:

Much less dodgy if you actually read the lyrics in context.

I've always interpreted that song as another veiled jab at societal homophobia. The title/chorus that makes it even arguably dodgy is a modified quote from Oscar Wilde's mother.

[McChesney Duntz]

Ah. Well, corrected I seem to stand, then. Still, not hard to read some of his future unsavoriness into it, for whatever that's worth.

[grainger]

But it leads him to make basic errors like not knowing that Johnny Marr was strongly influenced by Chic (one of his sons is called Nile).

The Chart Music critics do sometimes (or maybe often) make errors in the "facts" that justify their passionate views. It's sometimes frustrating when they "coat down" something I like with "reasons" that are just factually wrong. I still greatly enjoy listening to them though. Chart Music is one of the best things ever. For me, it's about the articulation, not the rightness or wrongness of the opinions. But when I agree with them, then they are definitely right.

Arguably, we all just like or dislike stuff and then justify it with rationale. But that doesn't make the likes of Taylor any less compelling to listen to. Life would be much worse if there weren't people doing this.

[dr beat]

I read the MM in the mid-90s and I found the CMP gang infuriating, incorrigible and entertaining in equal measure (also was a fan of the sadly short-lived Bang! magazine).  I'll thank them for framing how I thought about music then, and through the podcast, now.  I feel I owe them a lot.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Ah. Well, corrected I seem to stand, then. Still, not hard to read some of his future unsavoriness into it, for whatever that's worth.

Just my interpretation of the song, not necessarily definitive. And it's a Jane Wilde quote about expelling the English from Ireland, so not really sure which way that would cut...

[Brundle-Fly]

I read the MM in the mid-90s and I found the CMP gang infuriating, incorrigible and entertaining in equal measure

What leavens their forthright opinions today from the acid-tongued young scribes of a quarter of a century ago is that they are constantly coating down themselves. There seems more humility now. 

[dr beat]

Yes, big part of what makes this podcast.

[dr beat]

What I liked about the CMP gang was that at a time of major indie orthodoxy, they made it clear it was ok to like all kinds of pop music.  And at that point, that was a view very much ahead of its time, before the more wider critical acceptance of Liberty X, Girls Aloud, Taylor Swift etc

Apropos of nothing I bloody love this, following on from the last thread - Norway 1985.  Best Eurovision ever. I've already listened to this 10 times in one sitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h2-QFbtXtM