The Batman (2021)

[magval]

bird through the windy when he was sitting down bleeding and he more or less SAID that's it i'll be just like that many years after i myself had crime done upon me now i will DO the crime

[GMTV]

Campy Twilight reboot to balance the books

[SteveDave]

Wait a minute. Wait a fucking minute. Lads.



It's Trevor from EastEnders as a corrupt pre-Gordon Police Commissioner[nb]'Pete Savage' apparently, not Loeb[nb]Colin McFarlane in the Nolan ones! All pre-Gordon commissioners must be off British telly[/nb][/nb]. Nice one Trevor.

It's a pity Iron Man is dead otherwise he'd be for it.

[SteveDave]

Heh, turns out Colin Farrell's Penguin was in the trailer too

https://screenrant.com/batman-movie-trailer-colin-farrell-penguin-makeup-confirmed/

All that make up when they could've just got Richard Kind

[Huxleys Babkins]

I'm still recovering from the judge in Batman Begins being played by the pilot from Father Ted.

Surely the biggest shock is Victor Zsasz being played by Tim Booth out of James?

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

All that make up when they could've just got Richard Kind

But Penguin is unkind.

[BlodwynPig]

Did he have to hit that bloke fifty times to make his point? Proper hard Batman should've dropped him in one. Then screamed "IM THE BATMAN EVERYBODY"

Yeah, The Riddler this time. Paul Dano, I think. Nice

Jigsaw - let's play a game

[Mister Six]

yes, to the extent that I (and anyone, really) would classify that run as extremely dark overall.

But the art doesn't swathe everybody in darkness (Morrison's visual direction was high-contrast silhouettes and neon lights, not endless flickering bulbs in dank basements), Grayson Batman isn't being all angsty and super-brutal, and even the truly fucked up stuff like Professor Pyg has a twisted flamboyance to it that isn't at all "realistic".

[idunnosomename]

Anyway, I've always been fascinated by and wondered about The Batman.  How did he become the Batman?  Did he have any parents or anything?  I wish someone would explain it.

he came out of a big egg to fight crime

[Hand Solo]

he came out of a big egg to fight crime

[Blumf]

The nature of Batman was melancholic.

[Glebe]

[colacentral]

I don't mind there being tonal similarities to Nolan's films as I find those films to be mostly awful and I'd like to see a decent writer and director have a crack at it before we go back to camp.

Someone earlier in the thread said something about not understanding the appeal of Heath Ledger's joker. I don't like it either, and hate that that character and that film more every time I see it, but I loved it on first viewing. I think you have to remember the hype at the time - Batman Begins was the closest film portrayal of the modern comic book that there'd been at that point. It was relatively low key for a superhero film, grounded, and free of the pretentious waffle that was to come in the sequels. The Scarecrow and Ra's Al Ghul were interesting choices for villains but the latter wasn't particularly colourful and the Scarecrow didn't get to do much. So imagining a colourful, iconic villain like the Joker inserted into the grounded, comic book faithful world of Batman Begins was incredibly exciting, and the hype for that was building right from that ending with the joker card. It was difficult to imagine how a flamboyant, colourful character would work in the world that had been established, so that it worked at all was always going to be enough to give it that much more hype and praise.

On recent attempts at rewatching I just can't get on with it. The Joker doesn't even seem like the Joker to me. He's not even really attempting to be funny - I guess Nolan / Goyer just want the joke element to be some pseudo philosophical thing, like life is a big joke or whatever? But that's not the character is it. He still loves a laugh. The few attempts to reflect this are fairly weak - wearing a nurse outfit, the pitiful "poor choice of words" line. I can't think of too many more.

I can think of one good example that feels Jokery to me, and that's the line about the bus driver and the step to the right before the bus crashes through the wall. But that's the opening sequence, the best sequence in the film, and it's a let down from there. That's really what it should've been - looney tunes stuff. The joker isn't a cool trickster, he's bugs bunny.

[SavageHedgehog]

That is one way I actually think Pheonix's Joker is closer to the traditional character than Ledger. He's obsessed with comedy and can tell an OK joke with decent timing. Can't see Pheonix pulling off a bank robbery or commanding a single henchman though, let alone pulling off any elaborate schemes.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Yeah Ledger wasn't playing the Joker, he was just a psychopath in makeup. The more times I watch the film, the less I like it. Too much emphasis on him as well, he overwhelms the story. I still really like Batman Begins, particularly the origin stuff.

[Kelvin]

I think it's bizarre to say that Ledger's joker wasn't funny. He's funny on multiple levels, from small gags, like him opening up his coat to reveal all the explosives, cleaning his hands with handwash in the hospital corridor, and dressing up as a nurse, to things he does just to amuse himself, like burning all the money, and dressing the hostages as their own guards. All of that feels incredibly Joker-like, even if he's more reliant on irony than other iterations.

I also think his relationship with Batman and Gordon are straight out of the comics. It's certainly true that he dominates that film and takes away from Batman, but it feels like Joker through and through, imo. Even moreso when you compare him to the performances of Nicholson, Leto, and Phoenix.     

[The Culture Bunker]

Someone earlier in the thread said something about not understanding the appeal of Heath Ledger's joker.

I mentioned it, but you've summed it up a lot better than I could have. Amusing in a way how defensive some get when I express my problems with the film - not dissimilar to the reaction I get when I say I couldn't stand the Witcher 3: "You're just wrong!"

[Kelvin]

I'm not being defensive. I just disagree. It's a discussion forum.

[El Unicornio, mang]

I think it's bizarre to say that Ledger's joker wasn't funny. He's funny on multiple levels, from small gags, like him opening up his coat to reveal all the explosives, cleaning his hands with handwash in the hospital corridor, and dressing up as a nurse, to things he does just to amuse himself, like burning all the money, and dressing the hostages as their own guards. All of that feels incredibly Joker-like, even if he's more reliant on irony than other iterations.

I also think his relationship with Batman and Gordon are straight out of the comics. It's certainly true that he dominates that film and takes away from Batman, but it feels like Joker through and through, imo. Even moreso when you compare him to the performances of Nicholson, Leto, and Phoenix.   

I did find him funny, but not in the way that I picture the Joker, with that constant maniacal laugh. I grew up watching Cesar Romero in the 60s TV series, and later the comic books from the late 80s/early 90s and found the version in TDK lacking in that area. But, it probably fits better with the tone of the Nolan films, which I do still like.

[Dr Rock]

He's hilarious. Easily the funniest Joker to have appeared in a Batfilm.

[Butchers Blind]

Best Joker

1. Cesar Romero
2. Mark Hamill
3. Heath Ledger
4. Jack Nicholson
.
.
.
.
100. Jared Leto

[colacentral]

I mentioned it, but you've summed it up a lot better than I could have. Amusing in a way how defensive some get when I express my problems with the film - not dissimilar to the reaction I get when I say I couldn't stand the Witcher 3: "You're just wrong!"

I find it such a messy film too with poor performances across the board. Nolan's style is kryptonite to me. Someone in the Tenet thread mentioned how Nolan's films are edited to within an inch of their life and it's a big part of why I find them so off putting, and little wonder the characters are so unlikeable / forgettable when they are given no room to breathe. I felt the same about the editing in Batman Begins, and distinctly remember feeling that the opening training scenes felt like a "last time on Batman" montage with how quick they were cut together, but that film is so much more focused that I think he gets away with it. Dark Knight is a structural abomination in comparison.

I think it's bizarre to say that Ledger's joker wasn't funny. He's funny on multiple levels, from small gags, like him opening up his coat to reveal all the explosives, cleaning his hands with handwash in the hospital corridor, and dressing up as a nurse, to things he does just to amuse himself, like burning all the money, and dressing the hostages as their own guards. All of that feels incredibly Joker-like, even if he's more reliant on irony than other iterations.

I also think his relationship with Batman and Gordon are straight out of the comics. It's certainly true that he dominates that film and takes away from Batman, but it feels like Joker through and through, imo. Even moreso when you compare him to the performances of Nicholson, Leto, and Phoenix.     

Fair point with some of your examples, but there's not nearly enough. I think it's clutching at straws a bit to use the explosive jacket as a funny moment too.

I think the disappointment of the big final show down sort of sums it up for me - a fist fight in an empty office building as the grand finale doesn't scream the joker to me.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Best Joker

1. Cesar Romero
2. Mark Hamill
3. Heath Ledger
4. Jack Nicholson
5. Steve Miller
.
.
.
100. Jared Leto

[Kelvin]

Fair point with some of your examples, but there's not nearly enough. I think it's clutching at straws a bit to use the explosive jacket as a funny moment too.

But there's loads more, I just didn't see a point in listing them all. The pencil trick ("Ta da!"), "Do you think you can just steal from us and walk out of here?" "Yeah?", the "woosy" line when Batman hits his hand, the fact he makes up stories for his scars. They're not all jokes that the audience are meant to find funny. But he's amusing himself throughout, and much of what he does is built on irony.

There's comic precedents for a less flamboyant Joker, too. Off the top of my head, Scott Snyder, Grant Morrison and Frank Miller all wrote Jokers who were more self-contained, made greater use of irony, and weren't telling gags the whole time.     

I think the disappointment of the big final show down sort of sums it up for me - a fist fight in an empty office building as the grand finale doesn't scream the joker to me.

I agree about the ending. I love The Dark Knight, but the last act is too contrived and their battle too detached from the events on the boat. His "gravity" speech as he hangs upside down, his belief that people will break under pressure, and his gag with the hostages/guards all feel very Jokerish to me, though.

[Thursday]

But the art doesn't swathe everybody in darkness (Morrison's visual direction was high-contrast silhouettes and neon lights, not endless flickering bulbs in dank basements), Grayson Batman isn't being all angsty and super-brutal, and even the truly fucked up stuff like Professor Pyg has a twisted flamboyance to it that isn't at all "realistic".

Feels like you're talking about slightly different things here, the common criticism I think madhair is talking about is about how Batman has always dealt with very dark/adult themes, despite what all the people saying "hur hur but it's a kids comic!!!" for likes on twitter pretend.

Whereas you're talking about the dark/moody/realistic aesthetic.

[magval]

Saying "and as for the television's so called plan" is the funniest thing Joker does in The Dark Knight, but he's funny throughout. I remember a great deal of laughter in the cinemas in 2008.

[frajer]

Saying "and as for the television's so called plan" is the funniest thing Joker does in The Dark Knight, but he's funny throughout. I remember a great deal of laughter in the cinemas in 2008.

Same. That whole scene with the gangs is a belter.

When one of the gangsters snarls the cliche, "Do you really think you're gonna get away with this?" Ledger gives a fantastically flippant but solemn "Yeh" that makes me laugh every time.

[Mister Six]

On recent attempts at rewatching I just can't get on with it. The Joker doesn't even seem like the Joker to me. He's not even really attempting to be funny - I guess Nolan / Goyer just want the joke element to be some pseudo philosophical thing, like life is a big joke or whatever? But that's not the character is it.

It pretty much is, though. At least the one that has been prominent in the comics for decades. The Joker doesn't tell jokes that other people find funny, he mostly amuses himself in incredibly twisted and horrible ways. There's a sense of humour, but nothing you'd actually laugh at.

And I know the following is an appeal to authority, but fuck it: I did an interview with Grant Morrison around the time that this came out, when he was writing the main Batman comic (he'd been to the premiere just before; the film wasn't on general release yet) and he was raving about how this was the first time he'd seen The Joker done properly on film. And as he's the bloke who wrote Arkham Asylum and one of the best ever Batman runs, I'm inclined to trust his judgement.

[Custard]

Absolutely. Ledger nailed it beautifully.  A mesmerising performance

Though I dunno what Jared Leto was going for. Embarrassingly bad

[Urinal Cake]

Joker is the worst sort of comedian- a prop comedian.