Author Topic: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music  (Read 1902 times)

The Mollusk

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Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« on: September 11, 2020, 02:19:47 PM »
First four albums, absolute belter, indisputable. Some of the best heavy rock ever made.

But after that, what do?

My mate was on at me this afternoon to listen to Mob Rules and Heaven & Hell because he said the Dio years are merit-worthy in their own right. I'd never bothered to listen to that stuff before because... honestly? Come on. Obviously it's gonna be bobbins. Even if it's not bobbins, it's not Sabbath, is it?

I listened to about four tracks and it's fucking bobbins. Polished swaggering sleazy bloated crap. I'm not interested whatsoever.

Is there a valid case to be made for this stuff, or any later-stage Sabbath material? Most of the time I don't give a single fuck and I'm not interested in tarnishing my opinion of a band or artist by listening to what could potentially just be disappointing and bobbins. Four albums back to back is an incredible run for a band, I'm happy with that. Why ruin it?

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2020, 02:23:16 PM »
I prefer Dio's solo work to be honest.

Dirty Boy

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Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2020, 02:30:18 PM »
Quote from: The Mollusk
First four albums, absolute belter, indisputable. Some of the best heavy rock ever made
First five or six, shirley? Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is probably my favourite and Sabotage isn't bad either, although things are starting to slip by then. Never heard the next couple and can't be doing with Dio. Didn't mind the Gillan album when i heard it 20 years ago with a head full of cider.

Special treat: Melvins/Sleep does Sabs thing.

The Mollusk

  • The answer my friend is blowing in the mind
Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2020, 02:48:39 PM »
I should get around to the 5th and 6th albums really, yeah. If you have time, have a listen to a couple of the tracks off Heaven & Hell and let me know what you think.

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2020, 02:56:46 PM »
I listened to every Sabbath studio album out of curiousity a few years ago. Fucking hell, no wonder they pretend the non-Ozzy and Dio stuff never happened

Flouncer

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Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2020, 03:03:18 PM »
Yeah, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is a great album. The title track is amazing, and it's got probably my favourite song on it (A National Acrobat). I've never listened to Sabotage - I have got a copy of it somewhere - and I'm pretty sure the Dio years aren't for me, although the song Heaven and Hell itself is a banger. If I did listen to that stuff I might come out of it with a handful of songs I liked.

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2020, 03:04:06 PM »
The first six are perfect, but I think Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules are both incredible, especially the former. Sign of the Southern Cross is so fucking heavy that if it was a bit more downtuned and slower I think the main riff could pass on an Electric Wizard album.

Also you're fooling yourself by not listening to Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or Sabotage. Have you really never heard Hole In The Sky, Killing Yourself to Live, or Symptom of the Universe, A National Acrobat? Some of the greatest tracks they did.

The Mollusk

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Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2020, 03:15:24 PM »
The trouble I have with the Dio stuff is that it's cheesy as fuck. I know that, in its own way, the Ozzy years are also very cheesy, but it's a different kind of cheese. It's like The Devil Rides Out cheesy, because it's still gnarly and dark and extremely cool. Heaven & Hell is not cool at all to me. It's grandiose posturing waffle. Unfortunately, that's not the sort of thing I look for in heavy metal, or nearly any music at all for that matter. I want it to be scuzzy and mean and mysterious, not wailing and polished.

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2020, 03:19:09 PM »
The trouble I have with the Dio stuff is that it's cheesy as fuck. I know that, in its own way, the Ozzy years are also very cheesy, but it's a different kind of cheese. It's like The Devil Rides Out cheesy, because it's still gnarly and dark and extremely cool. Heaven & Hell is not cool at all to me. It's grandiose posturing waffle. Unfortunately, that's not the sort of thing I look for in heavy metal, or nearly any music at all for that matter. I want it to be scuzzy and mean and mysterious, not wailing and polished.

So is Mercyful Fate out for you? Judas Priest?

EDIT: I sound like a right cunt, sorry. What I am getting at is if I delved into classic metal with a "cheesiness" filter on I'd have deprived myself of some incredible music. And I'm someone who's baseline for noisy stuff is the most underground horrible shit out there.

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2020, 03:39:42 PM »
I listened to them all for some FB group I was in and whilst I can't remember anything specific, here are the ratings I gave them. Look out for the minus ahead of some marks.

BLACK SABBATH ***1/4
PARANOID ***
MASTER OF REALITY ****1/4
VOL 4 ***1/2
SABBATH BLOODY SABBATH **
SABOTAGE **3/4
TECHNICAL ECSTASY *1/2
NEVER SAY DIE!! ***1/2
HEAVEN & HELL DUD
MOB RULES -*
BORN AGAIN **
SEVENTH STAR -**
ETERNAL IDOL DUD
HEADLESS CROSS -***
TYR -**
DEHUMANIZER ***
CROSS PURPOSES -**
FORBIDDEN -***1/2
13 **1/2

Never Say Die! surprised me and I thought Master of Reality was an absolute gas. Forbidden one of the worst albums I've ever heard.

The Mollusk

  • The answer my friend is blowing in the mind
Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2020, 03:47:43 PM »
So is Mercyful Fate out for you? Judas Priest?

EDIT: I sound like a right cunt, sorry. What I am getting at is if I delved into classic metal with a "cheesiness" filter on I'd have deprived myself of some incredible music. And I'm someone who's baseline for noisy stuff is the most underground horrible shit out there.

No offence taken, I get it!

I find that stuff listenable, but I would never choose to listen to it. I'd probably find it a lot more appropriate and enjoyable if I was hanging out in a metal bar, but in my own home I don't see any magic or charm to it at all. I feel exactly the same way about garage (the dance genre, not the rock genre), but it's a different beast in this instance.

I'm trying to think where I draw the line with this stuff. Maybe Master of Puppets? I'm not a big fan of thrash, and I'd much sooner go for the hellish mania of Slayer than the comparably stiff early Metallica vibes, but I still think it's good fun.

magval

  • Magnum Valentino
Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2020, 03:54:06 PM »
Sabotage is ace, probably my favourite, and not just for the straight ahead metal bangers but for the weird long form stuff that sounds like the music from Conan.

13 is a reasonably decent example of that metal thing of targeting nostalgia of your own band, and Brad Wilk does an admirable job of subbing Bill Ward on drums.

Geezer Butler's first solo album (with Fear Factory's singer on vox) is one of the crunchiest and punchiest sounding metal albums ever made and full of amazing riffs and fuck you mate drumming.

I am most fond of Geezer.

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2020, 04:07:41 PM »
I'd much sooner go for the hellish mania of Slayer than the comparably stiff early Metallica vibes, but I still think it's good fun.

Totally with you there.

BlodwynPig

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Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2020, 04:39:54 PM »
Heaven and Hell is great, Deep Black Purple (Lady Evil), Neon Knights (Hawkwind Levitation-era Sabbath crossed with UFO), the rest are good "of their time" NWOBHM tracks, but I wouldn't throw them in a sewer.

BeardFaceMan

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Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2020, 04:57:12 PM »
Geezer Butler's first solo album (with Fear Factory's singer on vox) is one of the crunchiest and punchiest sounding metal albums ever made and full of amazing riffs and fuck you mate drumming.

I am most fond of Geezer.

Drive Boy, Shooting is a fucking banger.

For me, I just don't get on with that old school heavy metal singing. Black Sabbath music = heaven, Black Sabbath vocalists = hell (especially Ozzy. Awesome frontman, average singer). One of those bands I like the idea of and am glad exists but just can't listen to.

Dirty Boy

  • frisky young colt seeks distempered tuna
Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2020, 07:42:32 PM »
I should get around to the 5th and 6th albums really, yeah.
You mean you haven't heard them?


Sandwich Bloody Sandwich is triffic. Every tune a stormer, even the proto synth-fest Who Are You storms. Killing Yourself To Live is likely the best Sabs song.
Quote
If you have time, have a listen to a couple of the tracks off Heaven & Hell and let me know what you think.
I've heard the Dio stuff, can't be doing with it as i said.

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2020, 08:53:59 PM »
Opinions on The Devil You Know?

It's pretty decent, not special in particular, but v.heavy and worth a look for the first few tunes at least.

Eternal Idol is not a dud.

madhair60

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Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2020, 11:16:50 PM »
I love Mob Rules

chveik

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Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2020, 11:37:44 PM »
For me, I just don't get on with that old school heavy metal singing. Black Sabbath music = heaven, Black Sabbath vocalists = hell (especially Ozzy. Awesome frontman, average singer). One of those bands I like the idea of and am glad exists but just can't listen to.

yeah as an instrumental band they would have been pretty good

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2020, 12:24:18 AM »
Play a digital copy of the album through the VLC Player, go to the "Playback" tab, go to "Speed" and select "Slower". This transforms Dio's histrionic performances into something far grander and doomier and drone-ier, like Sunn O))), say. Chunktastic!

The Mollusk

  • The answer my friend is blowing in the mind
Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2020, 01:07:16 AM »
Play a digital copy of the album through the VLC Player, go to the "Playback" tab, go to "Speed" and select "Slower". This transforms Dio's histrionic performances into something far grander and doomier and drone-ier, like Sunn O))), say. Chunktastic!

Oof, you're sorta close with this. The trouble is once you slow it down there's a cavernous space in the rhythm section, absolutely no drum or bass fills. The riffs have the room to breathe which would illustrate how a million bands would try to slow that sound down and emulate it but only one band would be able to saunter up in the late '80s and do it justice (that band is Melvins).

Otherwise, the pomp of the Dio years can get to absolute fuck. Listening to Master of Reality now and even though I'm only 33 years old and I only discovered this album around 2015 this shit seriously makes me want to pull my own head off and set it on fire and chuck it through my neighbour's window.

The Mollusk

  • The answer my friend is blowing in the mind
Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2020, 01:08:57 AM »
Legitimately very close to demolishing my living room listening to this album and I feel that way every time I hear it.

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2020, 11:23:20 AM »
Opinions on The Devil You Know?

It's pretty decent, not special in particular, but v.heavy and worth a look for the first few tunes at least.

Eternal Idol is not a dud.
not enough variation in speed. Eating the Cannibals was the only fast one. So sad it was all cut short though.

Bible Black is a fucking monster though

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2020, 11:55:21 AM »
Been listening to the second half of the Ozzy era recently after reading a slightly annoying book about BS- Rat Salad by Roy Wilkinson. I don't really recommend the book.

These albums I generally knew less well than the first 4.

My opinion currently is-

SBS is ruddy great.
Sabotage is great in parts.
Technical Ecstasy is boring.
Never Say Die I really like. It is an album I had as a kid, so that probably colours my judgement but I think it really stands up. However a lot of people hate it.

Never managed to get on with the Dio stuff. It sounds to me like a quite good NWOBHM band, which is fine but I don't need it, and I've never liked Dio's voice.

Don't know much about them after that. I am thinking of giving Born Again a go.

Dirty Boy

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Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2020, 12:01:43 PM »
Quote from: cuntybollocks
Sabotage isn't bad either, although things are starting to slip by then
It transpires i was talking flannel here, it's fucking excellent from start to finish. No slippage apparent. The Writ ffs!

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2020, 12:08:36 PM »
The trouble I have with the Dio stuff is that it's cheesy as fuck. I know that, in its own way, the Ozzy years are also very cheesy, but it's a different kind of cheese. It's like The Devil Rides Out cheesy, because it's still gnarly and dark and extremely cool. Heaven & Hell is not cool at all to me. It's grandiose posturing waffle. Unfortunately, that's not the sort of thing I look for in heavy metal, or nearly any music at all for that matter. I want it to be scuzzy and mean and mysterious, not wailing and polished.

With Ozzy I believe what ever nonsense he is singing, or think that he believes it, whereas Dio to me is just another bellowing metal berk.

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2020, 12:25:12 PM »
It transpires i was talking flannel here, it's fucking excellent from start to finish. No slippage apparent. The Writ ffs!

I think the best albums they did were Sabotage, SBS and Master of Reality. Stopping at the first four is self-deprivation for Ozzy era Sabbath fans.

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2020, 12:26:51 PM »
Don't know much about them after that. I am thinking of giving Born Again a go.

I love it, but it really is Marmite Sabbath. Gillan has a completely possessed sounding energy on some of the tracks, like a little metal gremlin.

Never Say Die I really like. It is an album I had as a kid, so that probably colours my judgement but I think it really stands up. However a lot of people hate it.

The biggest crime about this album is they only play that fucking amazing riff at the beginning of Air Dance once and then it never comes back!

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2020, 12:31:56 PM »
Tony Iommi might actually be a proper genius. He had riffs coming out of his arse for years.

Re: Black Sabbath's heaven & hell (shit & good) of music
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2020, 12:00:20 AM »
Tony Iommi might actually be a proper genius. He had riffs coming out of his arse for years.
i hate the term genius but fuck me he is incredible. every single Sabbath album has loads of riffs that you're like "fuck, I could've played that BUT I DIDN'T"

I also like to say Forbidden is a good album. people feel they have dismiss it because the artists themselves have publicly said they hate it: but that's because they were a band at breaking point and have a horrible memory of making it. cozy powell's untimely death soured things even more.
it's actually got some inspired moments and great riffs. certainly not derivative of anything in 1995. give it a chance.

Born Again though sounds like ass. shame, because Zero the Hero is so fucking heavy Cannibal Corpse covered it.

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