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Language "outrage" in the US

Started by Shit Good Nose, September 12, 2020, 12:04:20 AM

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bgmnts

Quote from: Buelligan on September 13, 2020, 07:48:48 AM
Yes, of course.  And certainly, under all circumstances, utterly avoid it when speaking to people that spoke that language.  Why would utility or even fun, be a reason to repeat something like that?

What if it was a word you needed to say, like alone or fuck people?

Buelligan

What, like calling the Dambusters' dog by its proper name?  I guess you'd have to consider the importance of what you were saying and work it out.  Lucky that English-speakers have such a large vocabulary to choose from really, when you think about this new concept of not racially abusing people and the ramifications of consideration.

Crisps?

I'd avoid saying the anti-Chinese racist word, of course, except in a professional setting while talking to Chinese students, where I'd unnecessarily use it repeatedly, either for a bet or for important right-wing free speech reasons.

Zetetic

Quote from: Bazooka on September 13, 2020, 08:38:50 AM
屄Bī   which sounds like Be or Bee, is cunt in Mandarin.
Not a problem. I am a cunt; I'm allowed to say it.

Buelligan

Quote from: Bazooka on September 13, 2020, 08:38:50 AM
屄Bī   which sounds like Be or Bee, is cunt in Mandarin.

I don't have a problem with abusing cunts.  I don't know, is that wrong?

Paul Calf

I'd avoid using it in the presence of Mandarin speakers who might not understand that they're false friends.[nb]This term was coined in 1928. This is not a new idea. People are fucking idiots.[/nb]

Disclosure: I am not a university lecturer.

steveh

His case would have been stronger had he used examples of other common filler words too - jiùshì, ránhòu, é, ń.

The pronunciation used also varies by region - nà ge is more proper but nèi ge is used more in the north I believe. Then there's how filler word usage seems to vary a bit by region and age.

Bazooka

He used the best example there is regardless of whether nèi ge (yes it is)) is more common in the North.  These pathetic pieces of shit that complained would have pulled him up on nà ge  too, because they are awful humans.

Performing arts for the social media generation.
Where once dandy fops had their silk handkerchiefs clutched against their foreheads in flamboyant horror, now we have Twitter.
Nuance=no likes!!

checkoutgirl

Quote from: Sin Agog on September 12, 2020, 02:07:50 PM
All seems a little imperialist. 

Like going to any restaurant in any country in the world and asking for sausage, egg and chips in english and expecting the request to be fulfilled.


checkoutgirl

Quote from: Bernice on September 12, 2020, 07:28:58 PM
I find it troubling that a group of students on a communication course don't know their synonyms from their homophones.

Don't mention that to the students though, they might get upset.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 12, 2020, 08:29:28 PM
Female star of Ad Astra leaves room quietly.

Ruth Negga. How did she manage to get that under the radar? That's an interesting one though, should proper nouns come with a trigger warning now?

Or in 50 or 100 years will we be post political correctness where people consider context? Or will it just get worse where you can type sounds you're offended by into a small machine which blocks the sound before it even gets to your ears?

Niggardly is like a slightly less bad version of Ngger in the woodpile. They both seem gratuitious to me when there are so many better alternatives. Nege is a different story when it is said billions of times a day by so many people and the academic class is about that subject. If you can't handle that you shouldn't be in the world.

What's interesting to me is after the complaint was received, the following investigation and meetings and discussions that led to the professor leaving his post. Without having a good idea of what happened there it's hard to know what was for the best. Was other stuff brought into the discussion? Had he done anything in addition to this? Had he boffed the principal's wife? Had he other complaints against him? It seems he left without much of a fight.

evilcommiedictator

QuoteEnunciated, na-ge sounds like the N-word, which led several of the professor's students to complain to the university. Responding to the complaint, the dean of the university, Geoffrey Garrett, told students that Prof Patton would no longer be teaching the course.

"It is simply unacceptable for the faculty to use words in class that can marginalize, hurt and harm the psychological safety of our students," he said.

The university says that Prof Patton "volunteered to step away" from his role amid the investigation into complaints made against him.

So several students complain, the administration overreacts, the person involved does a nice thing, and the ENTIRE LEFT ARE PC GONE MAD. Gotcha

This song seems appropriate with most of our news atm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr8ljRgcJNM

H-O-W-L


Jumblegraws

Quote from: Bazooka on September 13, 2020, 09:37:44 AM
He used the best example there is regardless of whether nèi ge (yes it is)) is more common in the North.  These pathetic pieces of shit that complained would have pulled him up on nà ge  too, because they are awful humans.
So your response to an executive overreaction to a complaint at a university is to condemn the complainers as pathetic pieces of shit and awful humans? Are you being ironic?

When I was growing up, the brighter racists at school caught on to the potential of plausible deniability and would snidely use homophones of "Jew" to try and get at me. So it doesn't shock me that much that, even in this very specific context, his use of the word rattled some people. It's the fault of the university higher-ups if they aren't giving their faculty the job security they deserve, why don't you focus your fire on them instead of raging about students for having the temerity to raise concerns about the content of their courses?

Bazooka

I stand by the statement, they are aware what he actually said yet even knowing that made complaints, the administration are equally awful pieces of shit for making the guy step down but of course the students are the customer and the customer is always right etc.Now you might ask why did the guy not fight? Well that we don't know, and if we found out he had done something else then fair enough I'll hold my hands up, but so far it looks like the students playing victim and relying on spineless academic heads to bow down to the them out of fear they will be seen as not caring about student welfare, especially regarding race at this time. Maybe they paid him off well, or said "its going to look better for everyone if you step down". 

Yes you are awful if you try and bring down a professor for speaking another language on a language course.

Quotehis use of the word rattled some people.

But he didn't.

I actually find it baffling that people are defending the students, are you being ironic?

QDRPHNC

I find it a bit weird that out all the filler words in all the languages he could have chosen, he chose that one.

Bazooka

Quote from: QDRPHNC on September 13, 2020, 06:59:37 PM
I find it a bit weird that out all the filler words in all the languages he could have chosen, he chose that one.

Are geography teachers allowed to mention the Niger River, or a Latin teacher mentioning nigreos when talking about colours?

QDRPHNC

Quote from: Bazooka on September 13, 2020, 07:13:52 PM
Are geography teachers allowed to mention the Niger River, or a Latin teacher mentioning nigreos when talking about colours?

If it's relevant, of course.

But let's say the Niger River was actually pronounced like the n-word. And your geography teacher is talking about the Thames, then says, and an example of another river would be the Niger.

He's not done anything wrong, exactly. I'm just wondering why that example out of any number of others he could have chosen, that's all.

Shit Good Nose

As niggardly was mentioned upthread - what does the group think of it?  Aside from that guy who got into trouble for using it a little while ago, I don't think I've ever heard it used by anyone else for anything else. 

QDRPHNC

I think you can technically be in the right with the word like that, but still wrong for not anticipating how it'll be taken by other people.

Bazooka

As has been said, it's an excellent example to illustrate his language point, as someone who speaks Mandarin(nowhere near fluent) and hears it every day, he is spot on in using nei ge as an equivalent to "ummm ermm", he shouldn't have to pussy foot around a word that sounds like another, unless he has a really bad habit of slipping up when saying it then yeah he should probably avoid it, I've never heard anyone including not native speakers say it incorrectly.

Quote from: QDRPHNC on September 13, 2020, 07:25:07 PM
I think you can technically be in the right with the word like that, but still wrong for not anticipating how it'll be taken by other people.

But on a language course? Maybe the students were caught off guard hearing it, it's quite polarizing when you first hear it being said, but the students still went ahead knowing he's not making up some word under the guise of made up Chinese to mask his racism mid lecture.

QDRPHNC

Surely all languages have filler words. Pick one of those.

Jumblegraws

Quote from: Bazooka on September 13, 2020, 06:57:28 PM
I stand by the statement, they are aware what he actually said yet even knowing that made complaints, the administration are equally awful pieces of shit for making the guy step down but of course the students are the customer and the customer is always right etc.Now you might ask why did the guy not fight? Well that we don't know, and if we found out he had done something else then fair enough I'll hold my hands up, but so far it looks like the students playing victim and relying on spineless academic heads to bow down to the them out of fear they will be seen as not caring about student welfare, especially regarding race at this time. Maybe they paid him off well, or said "its going to look better for everyone if you step down". 

Yes you are awful if you try and bring down a professor for speaking another language on a language course.

But he didn't.

I actually find it baffling that people are defending the students, are you being ironic?
It wasn't unequivocal defence. Your bafflement just flags up your myopic perspective on the whole thing. Would it be an accurate summary of your point of view to say that the guy's intentions were, as far as anyone can tell, entirely honourable, therefore any complaints shouldn't have been considered, let alone upheld? The problem with that is that it dismisses the possibility that how he expressed the point had an impact beyond that intent and which might not be readily visible to someone who hasn't experienced racism. If the complainers thought that the lecturer had some sort of duty to acknowledge or otherwise be more delicate in citing the sound-alike, it's not difficult for me personally to envisage a subjective but rational reason for them to think so. It's possible to sympathise with that whilst also thinking that puts an unfair onus on the lecturer.

Beyond this, your condemnation of the complainers speaks to a warped perspective free speech campaigners seem to have nowadays, a ridiculous level of energy is put into attacking all the no-platformers, moral guardians etc instead of targeting the censors themselves. It's why so many people roll their eyes at the mention of cancel culture.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: QDRPHNC on September 13, 2020, 07:28:54 PM
Surely all languages have filler words. Pick one of those.

Well, for all we know he may well have gone onto other languages and filler words - the only bit of the lecture that's been made available (as far as I know) is that short section.  As it was a lecture, I'm assuming the whole video would be at least an hour long?  Course, it is possible that after that bit he puts on a nazi uniform and starts goose-stepping around, but we don't know that at the moment.


Quote from: Jumblegraws on September 13, 2020, 07:29:23 PM
how he expressed the point had an impact beyond that intent and which might not be readily visible to someone who hasn't experienced racism.

I agree with the overall point you're making, however if you watch that bit of the video you'll see that even "how he expressed the point" is overstating how he covered it - it's VERY brief and VERY casual and not laboured before he immediately moves on.  Someone taking offence to it is a different matter of course, but it's nothing like the other video posted upthread where the guy has a visual aid.

Jumblegraws

#146
Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 13, 2020, 07:37:11 PM
I agree with the overall point you're making, however if you watch that bit of the video you'll see that even "how he expressed the point" is overstating how he covered it - it's VERY brief and VERY casual and not laboured before he immediately moves on.  Someone taking offence to it is a different matter of course, but it's nothing like the other video posted upthread where the guy has a visual aid.
I've actually watched the video quite a few times by now, I get what you're saying but I'm not sure the briefness and neutral tenor of the moment makes that much difference.
ETA: I also take your point about overstatement, I was in waffle mode and my prose isn't great at the best of times. Guilty as charged.

Bazooka

Quote from: Jumblegraws on September 13, 2020, 07:29:23 PM
It wasn't unequivocal defence. Your bafflement just flags up your myopic perspective on the whole thing. Would it be an accurate summary of your point of view to say that the guy's intentions were, as far as anyone can tell, entirely honourable, therefore any complaints shouldn't have been considered, let alone upheld? The problem with that is that it dismisses the possibility that how he expressed the point had an impact beyond that intent and which might not be readily visible to someone who hasn't experienced racism.

Had it been a complaint about behavior or it didn't result in him losing his job then yes of course I would have more sympathy for the students, but based on the attitude displayed in the statement made(by those we've see, and who I'm talking about).  Like I said if he's done something awful on the side fair cop, but from what it seems a teacher has lost their job for doing their job, you are vastly underestimating the power students have in academia when it comes to launching complaints, read their statement they know the score, "possibly racist teacher" in these times, these students aren't 10, they didn't hear the word during the lecture and run straight to the dean, they knew he score. Bringing free speech perspective into this is nothing short of bizzare.

Zetetic

I still don't actually know anything about who made the complaint and what they thought of as a good outcome.

Quoteyou are vastly underestimating the power students have in academia when it comes to launching complaints
I think that probably needs a bit qualification, given how UK universities seem to have been handling sexual assaults in recent years.

Perhaps if there is a point of agreement here, is something about a transparent procedure for handling these sorts of things.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Zetetic on September 13, 2020, 07:51:22 PM
what they thought of as a good outcome.

Chekky Nandos for everyone.

...oh, wait, it's America isn't it...    What's the equivalent in America?



As for who made it - all I can find are just mentions of "several students" and "Black MBA candidates c/o 2022".  No other info, and a search of the latter doesn't bring up anything other than this incident.


Also important to note that the Prof has NOT been sacked or forced to take leave, he's just been moved to different courses instead.