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Language "outrage" in the US

Started by Shit Good Nose, September 12, 2020, 12:04:20 AM

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Bazooka

Quote from: Zetetic on September 13, 2020, 07:51:22 PM
I still don't actually know anything about who made the complaint and what they thought of as a good outcome.
I think that probably needs a bit qualification, given how UK universities seem to have been handling sexual assaults in recent years.

Perhaps if there is a point of agreement here, is something about a transparent procedure for handling these sorts of things.

Indeed, sorry I should have said US academia.

Johnny Yesno

#151
Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 13, 2020, 07:37:11 PM
Well, for all we know he may well have gone onto other languages and filler words - the only bit of the lecture that's been made available (as far as I know) is that short section.  As it was a lecture, I'm assuming the whole video would be at least an hour long?  Course, it is possible that after that bit he puts on a nazi uniform and starts goose-stepping around, but we don't know that at the moment.

Yes, I was saying this upthread. Annoyingly, the video cuts off at the point he mentions 'vocal disfluency'. A primary source would be better, but the wikipedia page on speech disfluency has the Mandarin speech disfluency in question as an exemplar.

QuoteLanguage-dependence

Research in computational linguistics has revealed a correlation between native language and patterns of disfluencies in spontaneously uttered speech.[4] Besides that research, there are other subjective accounts reported by individuals.

According to one commentator,[who?] Americans use pauses such as "um" or "em", the British say "uh" or "eh", the French use "euh", the Germans say "äh" (pronounced eh or er), the Dutch use "eh", Japanese use "ā", "anō" or "ēto", the Spanish say "ehhh" (also used in Hebrew) and "como" (normally meaning 'like'), and Latin Americans but not the Spanish use "este" (normally meaning 'this'). Besides "er" and "uh", the Portuguese use "hã" or "é".

In Mandarin, "那个(nà gè)" and "这个(zhè ge)" are used, meaning "that" or "this", respectively. Arabic speakers say "يعني", the pronunciation of which is close to "yaa'ni", [jæʕni] or [jaʕni], (literally 'he means', there is no grammatical gender-neutral third person) and Turkish say "şey" in addition to "yani" (without the [ʕ] found in Arabic) and "ııı".[citation needed]

Crisps?

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 13, 2020, 07:37:11 PM
Well, for all we know he may well have gone onto other languages and filler words

There's nothing to suggest he did that, so I'm not sure why it keeps being brought up, but even if he had, it would just make his use of an offensive example even more gratuitous.

Quoteyou'll see that even "how he expressed the point" is overstating how he covered it - it's VERY brief and VERY casual and not laboured before he immediately moves on.

Yes, very brief and very casual, over and over again in multiple lectures, repeating  what sounds like "n**ger n**ger n**ger", for years, until he finally got called out over it.

He's not using any of the bullshit defences other people are coming up with on his behalf, he's simply claiming he (and the people he claims told him the term) did not notice what it sounds like.

And since he's lying about that, because that is impossible, why assume he used it innocently?

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Crisps? on September 13, 2020, 10:59:54 PM
There's nothing to suggest he did that, so I'm not sure why it keeps being brought up, but even if he had, it would just make his use of an offensive example even more gratuitous.

We'll never know what else was said without seeing more of the lecture but the clip is clearly part of a larger point he was making. I don't see how giving further examples makes it worse.

QuoteYes, very brief and very casual, over and over again in multiple lectures, repeating  what sounds like "n**ger n**ger n**ger", for years, until he finally got called out over it.

He's not using any of the bullshit defences other people are coming up with on his behalf, he's simply claiming he (and the people he claims told him the term) did not notice what it sounds like.

And since he's lying about that, because that is impossible, why assume he used it innocently?

You're clearly a hanging judge. I'd like to see more evidence before deciding to kick away the chair.

thenoise

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on September 13, 2020, 08:54:11 PM
Yes, I was saying this upthread. Annoyingly, the video cuts off at the point he mentions 'vocal disfluency'. A primary source would be better, but the wikipedia page on speech disfluency has the Mandarin speech disfluency in question as an exemplar.
Better check whether the page was written by a white person so I know whether to be offended or not.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: thenoise on September 13, 2020, 11:24:10 PM
Better check whether the page was written by a white person so I know whether to be offended or not.

It might have been written by yer man himself.

Whatever, it's fine unless you read it out loud.

thenoise

So if I read it out loud I am the racist one and not the author?

Crisps?

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on September 13, 2020, 11:20:51 PM
We'll never know what else was said without seeing more of the lecture but the clip is clearly part of a larger point he was making. I don't see how giving further examples makes it worse.

You're clearly a hanging judge. I'd like to see more evidence before deciding to kick away the chair.

In 2020, after years of Trump and BLM putting racism awareness on the front page everywhere, someone continuously uses a term that sounds like n**ger when addressing black students. What are they if not racist? Merely totally fucking thick? Neither seems like a useful characteristic for a university lecturer.


checkoutgirl

Quote from: thenoise on September 14, 2020, 12:04:07 AM
So if I read it out loud I am the racist one and not the author?

If you projected pornography onto the side of a primary school would you expect Ron Jeremy to get the blame?

In this example the male performer in the footage involved is Ron Jeremy.


Cloud

How incredibly silly.

Quote from: thenoise on September 13, 2020, 07:44:43 AM
If you found out an English word was a racist slur in Chinese, would you stop saying it?

Quote from: Buelligan on September 13, 2020, 07:48:48 AM
Yes, of course.  And certainly, under all circumstances, utterly avoid it when speaking to people that spoke that language.  Why would utility or even fun, be a reason to repeat something like that?

What if I told you the word "cunt" is seen as extremely offensive and misogynistic in the US, and that there might be American women on the forum?  Or that there might not be because they've seen how much the C word gets thrown around here and decided to stay away so that they're not constantly reminded of centuries of patriarchal rule and misogyny?

Dex Sawash

Hello american ladies reading this, I

Noodle Lizard

"Cunt" has somewhat lost its sting in the US. Partly due to increased access to/popularity of British programming, but I think mostly due to me arriving here.

Buelligan

Quote from: Cloud on September 14, 2020, 02:04:53 AM
What if I told you the word "cunt" is seen as extremely offensive and misogynistic in the US, and that there might be American women on the forum?  Or that there might not be because they've seen how much the C word gets thrown around here and decided to stay away so that they're not constantly reminded of centuries of patriarchal rule and misogyny?

Yeah, I'd be happy to ban cunt.  Speaking as a woman who has lived her whole life under the heel of patriarchal rule and misogyny (and still does), I don't have a problem with it.  In fact, I like that it's been taken and applied to some of the cunts that have oppressed me and my sisters.  But I'd certainly listen to any cunt that wanted it banned, seriously.  It's not something I love or need or feel is part of my identity or self expression or freedom.  Does that help?

Just to add, even now, not sure I'd incorporate cunt into any future lesson plans though, in any cunting language.

Bazooka

Quote from: Crisps? on September 14, 2020, 12:51:37 AM
In 2020, after years of Trump and BLM putting racism awareness on the front page everywhere, someone continuously uses a term that sounds like n**ger when addressing black students. What are they if not racist? Merely totally fucking thick? Neither seems like a useful characteristic for a university lecturer.

A language professor referencing other languages in a language class,that is a useful characteristic.

Cloud

Quote from: Buelligan on September 14, 2020, 05:56:23 AM
Yeah, I'd be happy to ban cunt.  Speaking as a woman who has lived her whole life under the heel of patriarchal rule and misogyny (and still does), I don't have a problem with it.  In fact, I like that it's been taken and applied to some of the cunts that have oppressed me and my sisters.  But I'd certainly listen to any cunt that wanted it banned, seriously.  It's not something I love or need or feel is part of my identity or self expression or freedom.  Does that help?

Just to add, even now, not sure I'd incorporate cunt into any future lesson plans though, in any cunting language.

That's cool then, as you were :)

I'd suggest never teaching Americans how to count in Welsh, but to be fair, am not sure why anyone would want to learn that language anyway. Far too many consonants.

Buelligan

As long as you're not implying the Welsh are cunts, boy bach.  Say what you like about the cunting Americans.


Buelligan

Not from my side of the mountain, they're not.

Am I right in reading this is an MBA class? If it's anything like the UK (and I think it's likely US universities have a similar pull) the class will have had a significant Chinese representation - possibly almost entirely Chinese - making it look much more likely he chose that example to cater to his audience.

sevendaughters

I think what the professor did is 100% defensible, and not just from a "teach the controversy" perspective. It was good faith education and a solid example of how things work differently in other languages. I didn't even think it sounded exactly like the bad word, either, possibly because it entirely lacked the undercurrent of vitriol that usually comes with the hate speech usage.

That said, it wasn't a language course as such - it was an MBA and the wider thrust of the lecture appears to be public speaking in different national contexts (edit: drummersaredeaf got in there first)



JesusAndYourBush

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 13, 2020, 07:24:26 PM
As niggardly was mentioned upthread - what does the group think of it?  Aside from that guy who got into trouble for using it a little while ago, I don't think I've ever heard it used by anyone else for anything else.

It's an old world and hardly anyone uses it any more, so it's easy to consign it to the dustbin.

What the language guy should have done was explain other filler words too, then explain that this particular one 'na ge' can be misconstrued as the n-word, and warn his students to be on the look-out for this word so they too don't misconstrue what someone is saying, but at the same time advise them that it'd be best for themselves when they are speaking Chinese to use different filler words to avoid giving offence.

I remember reading something about Japanese and when someone is talking to you, rather than remain silently listening to them, it's customary for the listener to use certain filler words to show they're listening, one of them being "ah so" (yes, that is so), but at the same time the article also said that it's inadvisable for non-Japanese people to use that one because of the way that phrase has been used in lazy stereotypes, and that if you use it there's a chance Japanese people will think you're taking the piss, and it advised to use one of the other filler words instead.

Buelligan

Absolutely.  But you try saying that these days.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: sevendaughters on September 14, 2020, 11:21:41 AM
I think what the professor did is 100% defensible, and not just from a "teach the controversy" perspective. It was good faith education and a solid example of how things work differently in other languages. I didn't even think it sounded exactly like the bad word, either, possibly because it entirely lacked the undercurrent of vitriol that usually comes with the hate speech usage.

That said, it wasn't a language course as such - it was an MBA and the wider thrust of the lecture appears to be public speaking in different national contexts (edit: drummersaredeaf got in there first)

This.

Although also this:

Quote from: JesusAndYourBush on September 14, 2020, 11:50:20 AM
What the language guy should have done was explain other filler words too, then explain that this particular one 'na ge' can be misconstrued as the n-word, and warn his students to be on the look-out for this word so they too don't misconstrue what someone is saying, but at the same time advise them that it'd be best for themselves when they are speaking Chinese to use different filler words to avoid giving offence.

I remember reading something about Japanese and when someone is talking to you, rather than remain silently listening to them, it's customary for the listener to use certain filler words to show they're listening, one of them being "ah so" (yes, that is so), but at the same time the article also said that it's inadvisable for non-Japanese people to use that one because of the way that phrase has been used in lazy stereotypes, and that if you use it there's a chance Japanese people will think you're taking the piss, and it advised to use one of the other filler words instead.

What a travesty that the outcome wasn't this kind of analysis. For a short while this was called a teachable moment. It's worth noting that in your example from Japanese, it was necessary to repeat the stereotype in order to explain the particular issue. In this situation, we're assuming good faith on your part.

Shit Good Nose

Sushi restaurants leave thread quietly.

robhug

I binged watched a lot of nordic noir over lockdown and discovered that the Danish word for wife is 'Kone' which is pronounced 'Coon'.

Clearly racist and the Danish government should do the right thing and issue an edict banning that word from being used, dishing out fines for non compliance.

Jumblegraws

Quote from: robhug on September 14, 2020, 01:07:09 PM
I binged watched a lot of nordic noir over lockdown and discovered that the Danish word for wife is 'Kone' which is pronounced 'Coon'.

Clearly racist and the Danish government should do the right thing and issue an edict banning that word from being used, dishing out fines for non compliance.
Yeah, this one's been done a few times now and is moving into "I identify as an attack helicopter" status.

JesusAndYourBush

Quote from: Inspector Norse on September 12, 2020, 07:11:15 PM
"Slut"[nb]pronounced "slute"[/nb] is "end"

Slut is end in Danish too (I just checked).  That explains why a Danish game I had on the Amiga called "Oswald" said "Slut" where you'd expect it to say "Game Over".   There was also a "Super Oswald" which had speech and said something that sounded like "Ooh, speedlestu."