Red Dwarf rewatch

[neveragain]

Lister saying "aw smeg it" or something similarly deflated would have worked just as well.
Re: The Slag Debate.

[St_Eddie]

The line is misogynistic, but I felt like the joke was criticising that kind of misogyny. Lister is portrayed as hypocritical and fragile, while Hayley is portrayed in a fairly positive light from what little we know about her - she's shown as having the courage to confess her affair, she's got enough moral integrity to respect Lister's right to know about the pregnancy, and she admits she doesn't know who the father is. Even right before the slag line, Lister's giving a soliloquy about how great she is and what a fantastic parent she'll undoubtedly be - all of which he undermines the instant his hopes are dashed. And he does it in a very nasty and infantile way, no less.

That explanation would work better for me if it was Rimmer saying the offending word.  I just don't buy into Lister saying it.  Could he conceivably use that word as an insult in a moment of frustration?  Sure.  Does that necessarily mean that a scene should be written where Lister uses that word as an insult in a moment of frustration?  I'd argue that it doesn't.

[rue the polywhirl]

Dear Dave. The weakest episode of the series so far, and another brought down by a weak plot/story thread involving more unfunny vending machines. Whereas Fathers And Sons had good moments with the Lister/father plot, this one was just middling throughout and never got into lift-off. Cat and Kryten are in good form and again have the odd decent line but Rimmer and Lister just don't do a good job of pulling their advanced weight and especially in this episode their performances are all too leaden and full of bloat. Also the last line about calling out the girl in the letter as a slag is a bit jarring and somewhat of a downer ending.

[Lemming]

S10E06 The Beginning

After a short flashback to Rimmer's school days on Io, we cut back to the present day for an elongated scene with Hogey the rogue droid. Wasn't really sure what to make of this character, honestly, it's an idea that could work but it was a bit underwhelming, and the "I challenge you to a duel across space and time" line started to grate fast. Had harrowing flashbacks to "do you know what happens when a dinosaur eats mint choc ice cream..."

A simulant ship appears and blasts a hole in the hull. The crew race to the drive room to figure out what's going on. "How about we look out of the window" is a great line.

We are being attacked by a simulant DEATH SHIP, captained by a BERSERKER GENERAL who wields the SWORD OF SPITE. Also Lister's retrieved a gun which changes the state of any matter, and can thus create portals and let you walk through walls and shit like that. The crew flee Red Dwarf in a Blue Midget to hide in an asteroid belt.

All the scenes aboard the DEATH SHIP just didn't really land for me, felt far too parody-ish. The guy cutting his own innards out was such an off-brand joke for Red Dwarf.

I love Rimmer's talk about how his death was instant and stylish while the crew's will be slow and agonising. Also really love the meta-joke where we're denied an explanation for how Series 8 ended.

Anyway, Lister asks Rimmer to make a battle plan to defeat the simulants, which he panics about but agrees to. The battle plan itself is a wonderful callback to the "final, FINAL revision timetable" bit from Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers. You can see it here - I honestly think this single thing has more laughs than the rest of the episode combined. "MAKE AN IDEA WEB".

The concept of Cat being the one to advise Rimmer is fantastic, but the way it's written here doesn't ring true to me at all. Cat walks in playing with a string, does some seriously out-of-character psychoanalysis, and then, as if Doug's trying to reassure you that this is actually Cat, finishes by playing with the string again. More Cat and Rimmer scenes would be great, and again Cat being the one to help Rimmer overcome his anxiety is a perfect idea, but yeah, this just feels forced.

Rimmer has brought a holo-message with him (which he's never had before, never mentioned having before, apparently Lister has never even seen before, and inexplicably chose to carry around with him just in time to take it to Blue Midget with him), from his father. He plays it and discovers that his father was not his biological father - in actuality, his father is the gardener. After thinking about it for a bit, Rimmer's delighted - his gardener-father, who is apparently crap because he's a manual labourer, would surely be proud of him for serving aboard a starship, he reasons.

The next scene is quite effective, where Rimmer forcefully insists that the crew follow his plan.

Blue Midget is surrounded by ANNIHILATORS, sent from the DEATH SHIP. The BERSERKER GENERAL loads the PHOTON MUTILATORS and opens fire, and Rimmer springs his plan into action: Lister's magic gun liquefies Blue Midget's hull and the PHOTON MUTILATORS pass through, destroying the ANNIHILATORS and the DEATH SHIP. "The slime's coming home!" Some guy in the audience goes "WHEEEEEEY".

Oddly, this is one I remember liking when I watched it on a first broadcast, and I was fairly sure it'd be a standout from Series X. Having rewatched it, I'm actually gonna have to reverse that opinion - it was sparse on good jokes, the plot with the DEATH SHIP is total lightweight nonsense (and is treated as such by the script, which doesn't even try to take the antagonists seriously as a threat), and Rimmer's heroism doesn't really feel earned to me (unlike, say, his saving of the ship in Out of Time or his decision to save Nirvana in Holoship). Everyone also feels like they're written slightly wrong, too - there's the aforementioned scene with Cat, but Lister also acts like kind of a knobhead through much of the episode and Rimmer's far too calm and unflappable when facing down the BERSERKER GENERAL.

The big revelation about Rimmer's parentage falls flat too, simply because I don't remember Rimmer's father playing a particularly huge role in anything other than Better Than Life. It also doesn't help that Rimmer's real father is an all-new unseen character who we know literally nothing about. We don't actually see Rimmer work his way through this, either - the message plays, he leaves, then returns a bit later and announces that he's certain his real father would be proud of him, and then we get straight into the DEATH SHIP battle.

That ends Series X. My impression going in was that Series X was weak, with XI and XII being big improvements. In actual fact, Series X is pretty strong overall. Fathers & Suns and Lemons are great, Trojan is solid, Dear Dave is a mixed bag with some stuff to like and some stuff to criticise, and The Beginning didn't do much for me. Entangled is tough because the majority of the episode is good and seems on-course to be another big win for Series X, but then the final act just sucks, capped off by a staggeringly shit ending.

Should be fun to try and fit this series into the Grand Series Ranking. Where do other people put it? Has anyone got balls (or ovaries) of steel enough to rank it above some of the Grant-Naylor stuff? The best of Series X undoubtedly stands above a lot of the weaker classic episodes for me (Rimmerworld, Psirens, Camille, Meltdown, The Last Day, maybe Emohawk, maybe even Timeslides). Might do one of those series overview write-ups later and try and slot it into the ranking somewhere, at which point readers of the thread can engage in ritualistic slaughter of me for putting it too high up.

[BeardFaceMan]

Also really love the meta-joke where we're denied an explanation for how Series 8 ended.

We're denied an explanation because Doug is a terrible writer.

[St_Eddie]

FUN FACT: The script for 'The Beginning' was based off the script for the Red Dwarf movie which never materialised, including the appearance of Hogey the Roguey (who is played by Richard O'Callaghan - who also portrayed The Creator in 'Back to Earth).

We're denied an explanation because Doug is a terrible writer.

I disagree with you here.  It would have been far easier for Doug to just write a line about how Rimmer saved the crew after returning from his failed stint as Ace Rimmer (which was already the original plan for the resolution anyway).  That would have been dull.  I admired the way Doug addressed it with a joke acknowledging that enough time has passed, essentially saying who really cares at this point?  On that note, seriously; who cares about how the cliffhanger to series VIII resolved?  I'd sooner just pretend the whole terrible ordeal never happened.  The joke Doug went with felt like something of a middle finger to that awful series (intentional or otherwise), so it's all good in my book. 

[BeardFaceMan]

I disagree with you here.  It would have been far easier for Doug to just write a line about how Rimmer saved the crew after returning from his failed stint as Ace Rimmer (which was already the original plan for the resolution anyway).  That would have been dull.  I admired the way Doug addressed it with a joke acknowledging that enough time has passed, essentially saying who really cares at this point?  On that note, seriously; who cares about how the cliffhanger to series VIII resolved?  I'd sooner just pretend the whole terrible ordeal never happened.  The joke Doug went with felt like something of a middle finger to that awful series (intentional or otherwise), so it's all good in my book.

No, what would be easier would be for Doug to follow up on the cliffhangers he writes. It's not as if it's the first time a cliffhanger has been shittily resolved either. Yeah, who cares about silly little things like plot in a show that's trying to get you to care about the characters? If enough time has passed for anyone not to care, why mention it at all? I know the likes of you and me want to pretend that series 8 never existed because it was ball-achingly appalling, but Doug doesn't, he likes it. Because he's a bad writer. And because of his care-free attitude towards continuity. And his recycling of ideas. And his inability to write endings. And plot that doesn't make any sense. And ways to get home that are ignored and not mentioned again. Or his ancient sexual politics. Or his tired observational comedy like "ooh, don't you get put on hold for ages, eh?" or "isn't flat-pack furniture hard to put together, eh?".

I should probably caveat this by saying it's more that Doug is a bad writer on his own. Or maybe that's not even accurate if you look at series 7, he's just not a good writer without Rob. He's always said he never wanted to write on his own and I can see why, he needs a partner. I don't even think RD is too far gone to be saved, with the right injection of fresh creative blood a la The Gibbons with Partridge this could still be a good show but I think it should be clear by now that Doug can't pull this off on his own.

[Replies From View]

The alternative was "trollop" and "slag" was the original. I imagine if they had recorded them the other way around then "trollop" would have gotten the big reaction and "slag" wouldn't have been as strong as the ending would already be known.

I think the ending needed to have been re-written as neither word is without misogyny. Maybe they could have written a line calling back to the finger wetting machine.

Lister mimes the finger wetting doesn't he in the last few seconds of the episode.  Except it just looks like he is having a fit, so he gets away with it.

[Replies From View]

FUN FACT: The script for 'The Beginning' was based off the script for the Red Dwarf movie which never materialised, including the appearance of Hogey the Roguey (who is played by Richard O'Callaghan - who also portrayed The Creator in 'Back to Earth).

A version of the movie.  Doug was keen to point out there were loads of different forms and ideas the script went through, and The Beginning took a small number of them.  It's not like a shrunken version of what the movie would have been.

[Replies From View]

And ways to get home that are ignored and not mentioned again.

Always annoyed me a bit how they sometimes had a door right there that they could walk through to get home, but Lister would suddenly complain about not wanting to abandon his pet unicorn.

[St_Eddie]

A version of the movie.  Doug was keen to point out there were loads of different forms and ideas the script went through, and The Beginning took a small number of them.  It's not like a shrunken version of what the movie would have been.

Aye, I'm aware of that.  I wasn't trying to suggest that the movie was a condensed version of the plot to one of the script iterations, beat for beat.  I do suspect that the ending solution to the Simulents (or "Homo-Sapienoids", as the movie's version were called), with the matter displacer gun, was the planned ending to one of the latter movie drafts though.  It very much feels like an epic movie resolution.  Chekhov's displacer gun.

On the note of the movie, there's a few storyboards out there which pretty much confirm that it was to be an out and out reboot of the narrative; with the origin for how Lister gets drunk and winds up signing up for Red Dwarf, pre-accident (as originally described in the novel Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers) and then presumably re-imagining the depiction of how the accident occurs.

[rue the polywhirl]

I liked The Beginning as a closer for Series X. More action packed than usual. The Rimmer storyline was handled pretty well from start to finish and I liked the Cat's innate yet newfound ability to sense things in people and his motivational bit with Rimmer whilst playing with string. I thought the other scenes were dreadfully lacking however, full of padding and duff writing. The scene with the revenge droid was pretty gruelling. Talk of duels in space and time doesn't get funnier with repetition. Too often a joke that starts off as weak anyway gets flogged to death or a joke that starts of as decent gets pointed out or overexplained. The simulant that gets confused and commits hari-kari doesn't need to point out he has just committed hari-kari... we get it! Scene should have ended there without the needless gross out bits of him picking up his viscera. Another bit where Rimmer asks what weapons are on board the ship and Kryten lays down two forks and a pencil sharpener. Funny in and of itself but then Rimmer exclaims 'Two forks and a pencil sharpener!', literalising it and Kryten later produces a molecular destabiliser thus undermining the joke even more. The scenes with the death simulants are just very bad in general. If you make every character silly including the baddies it just removes any threat or drama and turns the whole thing into a silly drudge. Just as well Rimmer provides the emotional centre of the episode that just about saves it.

[BeardFaceMan]

If you make every character silly including the baddies it just removes any threat or drama and turns the whole thing into a silly drudge.

That was my main issue when series 10 was broadcast, I haven't rewatched them since, but too much of the silliness of series 8 was still there, not the direction I wanted the series to go in at all. I know everyone says series 11 and 12 and a big step up from 10 and I hope so because I haven't been inspired to rewatch 10 after reading people talking about them. And I probably didn't give 11 or 12 a fair go because I was so pissed off with the mediocrity of 10, so it'll be interesting to see how people view the rewatch.

[St_Eddie]

I liked The Beginning as a closer for Series X. More action packed than usual. The Rimmer storyline was handled pretty well from start to finish...

I really do love the opening scene with young Rimmer; it's very funny and the actor playing young Rimmer is a dead ringer (Rimmer Ringer!) for a young Chris Barrie.  I especially loved that the hair and makeup department made sure to give young Rimmer the same hair style which he was sporting in S01E01 'The End', before it grew longer and more curly in subsequent episodes...

That was my main issue when series 10 was broadcast, I haven't rewatched them since, but too much of the silliness of series 8 was still there, not the direction I wanted the series to go in at all. I know everyone says series 11 and 12 and a big step up from 10 and I hope so because I haven't been inspired to rewatch 10 after reading people talking about them. And I probably didn't give 11 or 12 a fair go because I was so pissed off with the mediocrity of 10, so it'll be interesting to see how people view the rewatch.

You'll be pleased to hear that there's a few genuinely menacing villains in series XI and XII.

[Replies From View]

I liked The Beginning as a closer for Series X.

Worth remembering as well how much better it was to have something that wasn't the Only The Good cliffhanger as possibly the last ever Red Dwarf.  This applied after Back To Earth, as well, but The Beginning in particular felt like a satisfying note to end the show on if they happened not to make any more.

[Replies From View]

I especially loved that the hair and makeup department made sure to give young Rimmer the same hair style which he was sporting in S01E01 'The End', before it grew longer and more curly in subsequent episodes...

I love how his hair wouldn't have grown while the rest of him updated into being Chris Barrie.

[St_Eddie]

Worth remembering as well how much better it was to have something that wasn't the Only The Good cliffhanger as possibly the last ever Red Dwarf.  This applied after Back To Earth, as well, but The Beginning in particular felt like a satisfying note to end the show on if they happened not to make any more.

I do wish that the actual final episode of the show had been titled 'The Beginning' though.  It would be such a perfect title for the last ever episode, given the the first is titled 'The End'.  As much as I enjoyed series XI and XII on the whole, I was a little bit saddened to have had that neat bit of circular symmetry nullified.  I wonder if Doug chose to apply the title to S10E06 because he wasn't sure if he'd be able to get recommissioned for another series.

[Replies From View]

I do wish that the actual final episode of the show had been titled 'The Beginning' though.  it would be such a perfect title for the last ever episode, given the the first is titled 'The End'.

This was probably part of the feeling that it might have been intended to be the last, up until series 11 came along.  (And we knew series 11 and 12 were filmed together, so we'd be looking at the final episode of series 12 in a similar way, rather than series 11.)

I should rewatch The Promised Land at some point, as I can't remember how it ends.  I suppose now we are taking much more for granted that there will likely be more.

[St_Eddie]

I should rewatch The Promised Land at some point, as I can't remember how it ends.  I suppose now we are taking much more for granted that there will likely be more.

If recent comments from Robert Llewellyn are anything to go by, we may not.  He said that he's simply not psychically capable of getting into the Kryten costume and prosthetics for much longer at his age ("the mind is willing but the body sadly isn't").  He fell badly ill during the shoot for 'The Promised Land' and had to be hospitalised, meaning that he wasn't on set for large amounts of time during the pre-filmed segments (resulting in the necessity of a stand-in) and causing the shoot date for one of the two studio recordings to be postponed.  He said that if there was to be any further Red Dwarf with him in it, then it would need to happen sooner, rather than later and the coronavirus pandemic has kinda put paid to that.  Of course, there's technically no reason why they couldn't forge on ahead without the Kryten character, given that he wasn't a part of the original crew but I can easily imagine everyone deciding to call it a day should he be forced to retire.

[BeardFaceMan]

Hasn't Doug said that he has no end point in mind and he'll basically write RD until the wheels fall off (or someone stops him)?

[St_Eddie]

Hasn't Doug said that he has no end point in mind and he'll basically write RD until the wheels fall off (or someone stops him)?

He has, more or less, but surely that would only stand to be the case providing that the key cast members are still able to do the show.  I suppose that Lister is the only character who is absolutely pivotal to the ongoing narrative, but again; I think if a couple of the other key actors are unable to take part, then even Doug would have to acknowledge that it's time to drop the curtain and call it a day.

I do sometimes wonder if Doug's Son, Richard Naylor (who's written and directed a short science fiction film, as well as acted as an executive producer for the show from series X and beyond) may one day take over the show, under the guise of a Next Generation (the saga continuum's) type of situation with a new cast of characters, a bit like Brian Herbert continuing (sullying?) his Father's legacy with Dune.

[Replies From View]

All the cast have at some point said they will be too old to keep going, and I am not sure how seriously to take Llewellyn's remarks about that.  It's generally just been light-hearted self-deprecation, "Last of the Summer Wine in Space" concerns or Llewelyn joking that Kryten is sometimes more overweight than is logically acceptable.  Was his illness a blip, or really an indication that he was physically reaching the end of his tether with the Kryten mask and costume?

[St_Eddie]

Was his illness a blip, or really an indication that he was physically reaching the end of his tether with the Kryten mask and costume?

Absolutely the latter.  It was a recent audio interview with him and from his tone and sorrowfulness at the concept of having to hang up the mask, he was clearly talking from the heart and being 100% genuine.  Even at the best of times, putting on the prosthetics and performing under the hot studio lights was a grueling process by all accounts, but dude's 64 years of age!  It's a young man's game, but he said if a show can be put together relatively quickly, then he'd love to do one final curtain call before hanging up the mask for good.  Again though; that was just before the coronavirus pandemic hitting and shutting productions down the world over.

[Replies From View]

I forgot to mention that between Back To Earth and series 10 Kryten's mask shifted from being thick latex to a thinner silicone material that would allow Llewellyn to give the character more expression with less extensive facial gymnastics.  You can tell, I think.

I don't know whether silicone is more comfortable and less overheating than the original latex, but I would assume so.  In series 12 the rest of the cast got to experience being Kryten, but I bet Llewellyn feels they never got the real deal!

[Replies From View]

I wonder how Doug and the cast would feel about continuing without Kryten.  My gut tells me they wouldn't do it, but I think they should.  Not to keep milking the brand, or because I want more episodes no matter what, but because it would shift the dynamic of the show back to the series 1-2 configuration, give the show symmetry and emphasise Lister's isolation in a meaningful way once more, as he ages and experiences those around him fading away.

Unfortunately I think that the people making Red Dwarf would consider that too heavy for the sitcom they want to make.  I don't think they are philosophical enough to bring the show full circle in this way.

[thr0b]

Just bring back Bongo.

(Wasn't Robert suffering with flu, rather than an illness caused by the costume?)

[Replies From View]

(Wasn't Robert suffering with flu, rather than an illness caused by the costume?)

This is what I had previously thought.  But maybe I am misremembering the documentary?

[BeardFaceMan]

That's what I'd like to see now, instead of past character/simulant/GELF of the week, I want them encountering less and less outside stuff, it becoming more focused on them on the ship, characters disappearing/leaving/dying, the loneliness etc. With the actors ages becoming a concern, as noted, it doesn't matter that Doug wants to write this forever, the actors can't do it. It would be nice if Doug would give this consideration for any RD he writes in the future and actually thinks about how to end the show. Although if it gets to a point where any of the actors can't continue, get ready for Red Dwarf : The Animated Series. At the very least I would expect Doug to write some more RD books if the show ends.

[ajsmith2]

I forgot to mention that between Back To Earth and series 10 Kryten's mask shifted from being thick latex to a thinner silicone material that would allow Llewellyn to give the character more expression with less extensive facial gymnastics.  You can tell, I think.

I don't know whether silicone is more comfortable and less overheating than the original latex, but I would assume so.  In series 12 the rest of the cast got to experience being Kryten, but I bet Llewellyn feels they never got the real deal!

have any puns been made about Llewellyn being in 'Silicone Heaven' after making this switch?

[Replies From View]

have any puns been made about Llewellyn being in 'Silicone Heaven' after making this switch?

no I think you're the first to be honest