Red Dwarf rewatch

[St_Eddie]

I don't know whether silicone is more comfortable and less overheating than the original latex, but I would assume so.

Apparently it is more comfortable.  Also, they had a special suit for 'The Promised Land' made, which pumped cool liquids throughout the suit via tubes.  Still, Llewellyn still seems to consider it to be a strain upon his health.

This is what I had previously thought.  But maybe I am misremembering the documentary?

It's quite possible that I'm getting the events mixed up, but the core point of what Llewellyn said in the audio interview remains.

[Replies From View]

get ready for Red Dwarf : The Animated Series.

MOBISODES



who can forget the brilliance of that one where they met the real Santa Claus.

[Bad Ambassador]

I wonder how Doug and the cast would feel about continuing without Kryten.  My gut tells me they wouldn't do it, but I think they should.  Not to keep milking the brand, or because I want more episodes no matter what, but because it would shift the dynamic of the show back to the series 1-2 configuration, give the show symmetry and emphasise Lister's isolation in a meaningful way once more, as he ages and experiences those around him fading away.

Unfortunately I think that the people making Red Dwarf would consider that too heavy for the sitcom they want to make.  I don't think they are philosophical enough to bring the show full circle in this way.

I like this idea. An elderly Lister, being tended to by a reluctant but concerned Rimmer. Eventually Lister dies, Rimmer asks to be permanently deactivated and then, his task of keeping Lister alive completed, Holly shuts down for good, leaving Red Dwarf as a vast dead hulk drifting into the void.

Possibly not, as you note, the knockabout comedy Dave would have in mind, but a satisfying conclusion to the series in keeping with the Dark Star and Silent Running inspirations.

[St_Eddie]

It would be nice if Doug would give this consideration for any RD he writes in the future and actually thinks about how to end the show.

Doug's gone on record several times as stating that he would never write a definitive ending and that when the show does eventually end, it will be with the crew remaining in space.  He said that he can't think of anything worse than having Lister go to Fiji with Kochanski and having them own a sheep and a cow and breeding horses.  Something about it being "cheesy and vomit inducing".

Although if it gets to a point where any of the actors can't continue, get ready for Red Dwarf : The Animated Series. At the very least I would expect Doug to write some more RD books if the show ends.

It's been done and it is awful.

EDIT: Ah, pipped to the post by Replies From View.

[BeardFaceMan]

Doug's gone on record several times as stating that he would never write a definitive ending and that when the show does eventually end, it will be with the crew remaining in space.  He said that he can't think of anything worse than having Lister go to Fiji with Kochanski and having them own a sheep and a cow and breeding horses.  Something about it being "cheesy and vomit inducing".

That's just Doug being a bad writer again and not knowing how to do endings, the only ending he can think of is the cheesy one. It's not that he can't think of anything worse, he just can't think of anything else.

I like this idea. An elderly Lister, being tended to by a reluctant but concerned Rimmer. Eventually Lister dies, Rimmer asks to be permanently deactivated and then, his task of keeping Lister alive completed, Holly shuts down for good, leaving Red Dwarf as a vast dead hulk drifting into the void.

Possibly not, as you note, the knockabout comedy Dave would have in mind, but a satisfying conclusion to the series in keeping with the Dark Star and Silent Running inspirations.

For instance, that would be a great ending, and fitting the tone of the original show. Which is why it will never happen.

It's been done and it is awful.

Fucking hell, I've never seen that before. Still, at least it's not claymation, I suppose.

[ajsmith2]

Doug's gone on record several times as stating that he would never write a definitive ending and that when the show does eventually end, it will be with the crew remaining in space.  He said that he can't think of anything worse than having Lister go to Fiji with Kochanski and having them own a sheep and a cow and breeding horses.  Something about it being "cheesy and vomit inducing".

That's disappointingly unambitious and rubbish. I don't think anyone thinks it should end with the literal hare-brained dream that Lister had in 'The End' being realized to the letter, but something that played off those expectations* against the reality of actually making it back to earth properly, for real this time, would be good. Or like yous have said above, remaining lost in space but at least facing up to the inevitable entropy of their condition. I think it would be right shite given the potential and scale of the show's premise if the final episode of RD is some business as usual light hearted episodic shenanigans starring guys pushing 70 and then it just ends cos someone dies or retires. 


*don't you think bringing back Clare Grogan for a cameo in a final arc in some way would have the potential to be an emotional gut punch with a weight that Chloe Annett appearing in Back To Earth just didn't have? The original Kochanski from the early episodes appearing as, I dunno a vision or recording or something haunting like she would do every so often in the original BBC run, reminding us of how far Lister still is and will always remain from his dreams? They brought back the original Holly and the later Dave run has put the canonical status of the series Annett appears in into question anyway, why the fuck not.

[JamesTC]

There are literal finales and there are thematic finales. Doug has changed course since the revival to thematic finales, so they never fall into the possibility of ending on a sour note as they nearly did with Only the Good. The Beginning, Skipper and The Promised Land could all act neatly as final episodes without having to actually be literal ends to the story which is how I like shows to end in most circumstances.

TNG's All Good Things is the best finale ever made in my opinion and that ends with the adventure continuing. Obviously it was then undercut by Generations. Same happened with Enterprise which had a wonderful two-part finale which was thematically perfect for what the show then represented, but then they tacked on a wacky TNG holodeck adventure to the end as the actual finale.

You can say that a Silent Running or Dark Star style ending would be great, but it would leave a hefty percentage of the audience cold. The Red Dwarf audience is divided in what it wants from the show and that is why it would be so difficult to provide a definitive ending. The show soft reboots every few series and this leaves different tones and styles which would suit different types of endings. Let's just be glad Series VIII wasn't the definitive ending with the ship hilariously crashing into earth and exchanging insurance details.

[St_Eddie]

I agree that it's disappointing to know that Doug would never willingly and knowingly write a definitive ending to the show.  Lister's been through so much as the last human and in his quest to do whatever it is he's aiming to achieve now.  He deserves some kind of payoff.

...the later Dave run has put the canonical status of the series Annett appears in into question anyway, why the fuck not.

In what way does the Dave era put the canonical status of the 3 series (or rather 2 series and a special) which Chloë Annett appeared in into question?  It's been established via a retcon that Annett is the face of Kochanski now.  It's one thing for a computer to change his/her visage on a whim but it would be really odd if they flip-flopped back to Clare Grogan at this juncture (and I say that as someone who preferred Grogan's portrayal of the character).

[BeardFaceMan]

Thematic finales, what have they been? Or by thematic finales do you mean soft reboots? What even is the theme of RD at this point, what is the sit in the sitcom? It used to be finding Kochanski and getting back to Earth, there's an end to that story, whether Lister gets his wish or not. Is the show just about finding Kochanski at this point? Getting back to Earth or meeting other humans doesn't seem to matter any more, they do it all the fucking time now and barely even remark upon it. Or has the show just become the last man alive and his wacky adventures?

[idunnosomename]

I can't stop laughing at this from the quaint old days of -2007-

https://www.realwire.com/releases/red-dwarf-to-premiere-on-mobile

Cult TV enthusiasts to get very own mobile social networking service with exclusive 'mobisodes'

Fans of the international, award winning, cult sci-fi comedy series Red Dwarf, will soon be able to watch exclusively created 'mobisodes' of the show on their mobile phone via Pitch, the international mobile entertainment company. Animated episodes made up from classic moments in the show, which has just been named 'Top Science Fiction and Fantasy Show of all time' by the Radio Times, will be available from 11th October on a weekly basis.

Charles Armitage at Red Dwarf said: "Pitch Entertainment has created amazing, ground breaking technology that gives our fans the chance to access and enjoy Red Dwarf whilst on the move. The weekly animated 'mobisodes', the social networking functionality and the exclusive content will enhance the Red Dwarf experience for everyone."

Pitch is available to mobile users in thirteen territories, as far-flung as Malaysia and Singapore, as well as across Europe with plans to launch a new territory every month over the next year. Red Dwarf is now approaching its 20th anniversary as an international success story, seen in over 35 countries, with DVD sales approaching 4 million units.

Martin Bowley chief executive at Pitch, said: "Red Dwarf is iconic with millions of die-hard fans across the world. Combining such comic genius with the latest in mobile entertainment technology creates an exciting and dynamic environment that will move the cult of Red Dwarf into another dimension. Established fans can access new episodes, interact with each other and share their passions for Red Dwarf, whilst a new generation of fans will also be able to discover Red Dwarf for the first time. This is the future of entertainment."

For just £3 a week, subscribers will receive a brand new Red Dwarf animated 'mobisode' and access to a virtual social network allowing them to utilise all the functionality of social networking whilst on the move. Fans can chat, upload and rate their pictures & videos. Subscribers can also choose 6 enhanced mobile features for their phone each week as part of the Red Dwarf service including specially created Red Dwarf ringtones, wallpapers, screensavers and videos.

Subscribers can receive the brand new Red Dwarf 'mobisode' each week by visiting www.red-dwarf.mobi or text RD1 to 87000.

Notes to the Editor

About Pitch Entertainment Group:

Pitch Entertainment Group (www.pitch.mobi) is an innovative and market-leading global mobile entertainment company.

Pitch currently operates in the UK, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Australia, Spain, Belgium, Austria, Ukraine, Switzerland, Singapore, Malaysia, Ireland and the Netherlands. All territories are controlled from the Pitch Entertainment Group head office in London.

In 2007 I still had a little flip-phone that I charged once a month and could only play snake and a breakout ripoff on it.

edit: see the website here. doesnt archive well.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070701000000*/http://www.pitch.mobi/

for some reason it has a live chat on the front page that gets captured. for instance here the fine people of pitch are discussing if girls are better than boys.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070621212440/http://www.pitch.mobi/

no wonder they went to Dave after this sad time in the wilderness

[BeardFaceMan]

The future of entertainment? Aw bless.

[Lemming]

Count me in as another person who'd love a conclusive ending. However, any ending Doug writes now would have to contest with the multitude of premise-busting shit the show's introduced. There's just too many ways for them to easily escape their situation at this point.

For example, ever since Series 4's DNA, there's been no reason why they couldn't just do the following:

1. Use the DNA machine (which they appeared to have brought aboard Red Dwarf) to make a mindless clone of Rimmer - any DNA would work, so a Rimmer clone could be made out of a strand of Lister's hair, for example.

2. Use the bodyswap machine to transfer Rimmer's consciousness into the clone, as it has the proven ability to do. Rimmer is now resurrected.

3. Go into the Stasis Leak and either:
a) leave the ship, dooming the crew but creating a stable time loop in which past-Lister will go into stasis again, past-Rimmer will die in the blast, and Frankenstein will be sealed in the hold
b) find a way to alert and evacuate the crew while still sealing past-Lister in stasis, having past-Rimmer die, and sealing Frankenstein in the cargo bay, thus ensuring the time loop

either choice leads to
4. Live out the rest of their lives happily on Earth.

Unless Doug wants to go for a straightforward "everything's totally fixed" ending like this, there's gonna be some really tricky workarounds and explanations to come up with.

Getting back to Earth or meeting other humans doesn't seem to matter any more, they do it all the fucking time now and barely even remark upon it. Or has the show just become the last man alive and his wacky adventures?

Well yeah, but this has been more or less the case since Series 3.

[Replies From View]

I agree that it's disappointing to know that Doug would never willingly and knowingly write a definitive ending to the show.  Lister's been through so much as the last human and in his quest to do whatever it is he's aiming to achieve now.  He deserves some kind of payoff.

In what way does the Dave era put the canonical status of the 3 series (or rather 2 series and a special) which Chloë Annett appeared in into question?  It's been established via a retcon that Annett is the face of Kochanski now.  It's one thing for a computer to change his/her visage on a whim but it would be really odd if they flip-flopped back to Clare Grogan at this juncture (and I say that as someone who preferred Grogan's portrayal of the character).

Why is it acceptable to flip the face of Kochanski to Chloe Annett but not flip her back again?  Lister always pined for the version of Kochanski we saw in series 1, 2 and 6.  He didn't even meet the Annett version until series 7, and she explicitly decided that living alone in deep space would be better than continuing to be anywhere near Lister.

So I agree.  Let him rediscover the original Kochanski via another stasis leak or anything.  She'll have no memories of series 7 or 8 because that was a different woman.  A placeholder Kochanski when all he needed was any other company rather than his dream.





...and then let Kochanski die like a week after Kryten goes rusty, and when Rimmer is turned off make sure there is a death rattle sound.

[BeardFaceMan]

So the story with Kochanski is that she got in a Starbug and left RD? Just went off on her own, no company, no Holly, no plan, no supplies, just left?

[Replies From View]

So the story with Kochanski is that she got in a Starbug and left RD? Just went off on her own, no company, no Holly, no plan, no supplies, just left?

Dunno about no plan and no supplies, but yeah.

[BeardFaceMan]

I would say that that's terrible writing, or its shitty that her fate seems to be drifting alone in deep space forever until she dies or the man she ran away from comes to bring her back, but then in the RD universe "last woman alive in deep space" means she should stumble upon a populated planet in a few weeks.

[Replies From View]

I would say that that's terrible writing, or its shitty that her fate seems to be drifting alone in deep space forever until she dies, but then in the RD universe "last woman alive" means she should stumble upon a populated planet in a few weeks.

Unless that's Irene E, in which case:  airlock, dead, shrug

[ajsmith2]

In what way does the Dave era put the canonical status of the 3 series (or rather 2 series and a special) which Chloë Annett appeared in into question?  It's been established via a retcon that Annett is the face of Kochanski now.  It's one thing for a computer to change his/her visage on a whim but it would be really odd if they flip-flopped back to Clare Grogan at this juncture (and I say that as someone who preferred Grogan's portrayal of the character).

In the sense that they've mostly ignored the events/approaches of series 7/8 and made a point of attempting to go back a more 'classic' series 1-6 vibe. Ok the Annett version appeared in Back To Earth which was Dave but have series 10-12 even referred much back to that? Plus she was a despair squid assisted vision in that anyway, easy to say 'oh that was an alternate KK'. I understand that the Annett Kochanski in series 7 was intended at the time to be a straight re-cast of the part but the fact she originated from a parallel universe and keeps going on about 'her' Dave muddies the waters and would make it very easy to reverse retcon.

Other than that one series 7 flashback scene that's meant to be from 'our' Lister's past featuring Annett (and ok, the fact that Lister never remarks how she looks completely different!) there's little hard on screen evidence that the Annett Kochanski is the definitive one. Sure it was an intended retcon at the time but it was done nearly 25 years ago now and there's no need to treat it as the final word. This is just a hunch and I may be being completely unfair, (some bigger experts on this thread may be able to put me right on this so apologies in advance)  but I've always suspected the recast was done in 1997 cos looks wise Annett was more of a conventionally attractive saleable 90s 'babe' than the quirkier Grogan, which as noted ages back on this thread misses the point of why Lister would fall for her.

[St_Eddie]

I would say that that's terrible writing, or its shitty that her fate seems to be drifting alone in deep space forever until she dies or the man she ran away from comes to bring her back, but then in the RD universe "last woman alive in deep space" means she should stumble upon a populated planet in a few weeks.

Agreed.  That's always bothered me.  Kochanski was onboard a ship the size of a city.  If she wanted to get away from Lister, then all she had to do was move to a different deck.  There's absolutely no reason for her to abandon everyone and everything to live the rest of her days in harrowing isolation.

[Replies From View]

I may be being completely unfair, (some bigger experts on this thread may be able to put me right on this so apologies in advance)  but I've always suspected the recast was done in 1997 cos looks wise Annett was more of a conventionally attractive saleable 90s 'babe' than the quirkier Grogan, which as noted ages back on this thread misses the point of why Lister would fall for her.

Of course they have never admitted as such, but yeah.

They were also thinking about the movie, and, as such the casting for the movie.


So it seems quite obvious to me that that's why they made that choice.

[St_Eddie]

In the sense that they've mostly ignored the events/approaches of series 7/8 and made a point of attempting to go back a more 'classic' series 1-6 vibe. Ok the Annett version appeared in Back To Earth which was Dave but have series 10-12 even referred much back to that?

Off the top of my head, series X makes explicit reference to Lister being his own Father, which was a plot point originating from series VII.  I'm aware that they already changed the actress once, so there is a line of thinking which says "well, why not just change her back again, then?" but I think it would be far too confusing for the more casual audience at this point.  Besides, I've always taken the "The Next Generation... Nearly" intro to series III with a certain amount of credence.  I've always viewed it as a vague acknowledgment that series I and II take place in a parallel dimension to series III and beyond, which would go some way to explaining the different Kochanski, as well as a general shift in tone and continuity gaffs such as the changing number of original crew members onboard Red Dwarf.  Wouldn't explain Grogan's appearance in VI though, so fucked if I know really.

On the subject of Grogan's appearance in VI; is it just me or does the cast's reaction to her on the series VI commentary suggest no small amount of animosity there?  I wonder if there's some behind the scenes beef that we're not privy to.

I understand that the Annett Kochanski in series 7 was intended at the time to be a straight re-cast of the part but the fact she originated from a parallel universe and keeps going on about 'her' Dave muddies the waters and would make it very easy to reverse retcon. Other than that one series 7 flashback scene that's meant to be from 'our' Lister's past featuring Annett (and ok, the fact that Lister never remarks how she looks completely different!)

That's one pretty major flaw in your theory though.  If parallel universe Kochanski looked different to original Kochanski in-universe, you'd think that Lister might have mentioned that when he first encountered her in series VII, no?

...I've always suspected the recast was done in 1997 cos looks wise Annett was more of a conventionally attractive saleable 90s 'babe' than the quirkier Grogan

Sadly, the fact that they dressed Chloë Annett in skin tight latex and had the Cat constantly refer to her as "Officer Butt Babe" would tend to suggest that you are correct in your suspicions.

[Replies From View]

Agreed.  That's always bothered me.  Kochanski was onboard a ship the size of a city.  If she wanted to get away from Lister, then all she had to do was move to a different deck.  There's absolutely no reason for her to abandon everyone and everything to live the rest of her days in harrowing isolation.

But then she'd have no control over where she was going.  All the interfacing with the ship, JMC and so on would have been the lads doing it.  Any investigations of other planets, dimensions and so on wouldn't have involved her input.  Why should she automatically prefer the life of - essentially - living in storage rooms in a massive warehouse?

Plus there's no reason to assume she'd be unable to survive on Starbug when Lister, Rimmer and Kryten were able to do it for series 6 and 7, either.

[Lemming]

The Kochanski subplot is very weakly written and transparently just a plot device, so there's no defending it, but: ever since Series 6, space has been divided into various (apparently fairly coherent and well-known) populated zones governed by factions - GELF space, Simulant space, etc. There's also plenty of indications of humans passing through - Psirens survive by eating passing humans (one of whom we actually see the fresh remains of, and Dave "I'm the last human" Lister doesn't give a shit at all), Simulants are said to routinely take human prisoners, and the GELFs in Emohawk have a trade network.

Assuming the show's still running on this logic - and we've had Simulants and GELFs both show up in Series X - Kochanski's got plenty of places to go if she bails out in Starbug. She's got more tech competence than the rest of the crew combined and she was able to semi-successfully infiltrate a Simulant ship while disguised as a GELF, so she's got enough know-how to feasibly survive. Presumably (and I'm doing Doug's job for him here), her long-term goal would be to find a way to reopen the Swirling Magic Space Colon that leads back to her own universe.

[Bad Ambassador]

Here's a pitch for a final episode that I would be satisfied with and Dave probably wouldn't worry about being depressing.

Red Dwarf gets within radio range of Earth, and civilisation is either at the same level as when it left - due to Futurama-style rise-fall-rises - or incredibly advanced. Either way, the crew are welcomed home with open arms as lost-long ancestors and historical curios. The problem is that the ship is on a seemingly irrevocable collision course due to some broken navigation gubbins. The problem turns out to be a Holly subroutine, so his memory core has to be removed from the ship, allowing a course change so it collides with the Moon, leading to the insurance details exchange with the grumpy moonbase commander. Holly can be downloaded into an Earth-based computer, Rimmer can have a new body grown with the amazing future tech and Kryten can be upgraded to a more human appearance - allowing Bobby Llew to ditch the prosthetics and have a more comfortable costume. The Cat also has a subplot, where, I don't know, he goes into pon farr about all the sex he's going to have. They finally arrive on to be greeted like heroes - by a tiny group of history buffs and a minor official. And both Kochanskis, who have been living there for years having separeatly fallen through wormholes a few hours after leaving the ship. Grogan Kochanski suggests she and Lister pick up where they left off, while Annette Kochanski reveals she's only there to cover the story for the local news.

This is just off the top of my head. It's a bit pat, but as jolly happy endings go it's the kind of thing I could live with. It even leaves open the door for more stories of them adjusting to life on future Earth, with RL still playing Kryten without the costume/make-up issues.

[BeardFaceMan]

Of course they have never admitted as such, but yeah.

They were also thinking about the movie, and, as such the casting for the movie.


So it seems quite obvious to me that that's why they made that choice.

Thinking about making a movie was the death of this show. Absolutely no need for a RD film to exist and all the creative energies and resources were chucked in that direction for a few years for no good reason, all it served to do was detract from the show. If series 7 was the dry run for a film and they had got it greenlit and did that instead of series 8 just imagine how fucking bad that film would be.

I'm aware that they already changed the actress once, so there is a line of thinking which says "well, why not just change her back again, then?" but I think it would be far too confusing for the more casual audience at this point. 

The casual audience wouldnt even notice, Grogan hasn't been onscreen for decades and Annette barely made an appearance in the Dave era. And if they did notice they probably wouldn't know that Grogan was the original K, not if some of the current audience who go to tapings don't know what a polymorph is.

[St_Eddie]

Thinking about making a movie was the death of this show. Absolutely no need for a RD film to exist and all the creative energies and resources were chucked in that direction for a few years for no good reason, all it served to do was detract from the show. If series 7 was the dry run for a film and they had got it greenlit and did that instead of series 8 just imagine how fucking bad that film would be.

It must be said that Doug Naylor's nigh-on decade long pursuit of making a Red Dwarf movie did came across as something as a vanity fueled ego project; a desire to make the transition to Hollywood and shmoose with the big league stars.  As you say, as a concept it's always been better suited to a TV sitcom format.

[Replies From View]

Off the top of my head, series X makes explicit reference to Lister being his own Father, which was a plot point originating from series VII.  I'm aware that they already changed the actress once, so there is a line of thinking which says "well, why not just change her back again, then?" but I think it would be far too confusing for the more casual audience at this point.

Do we really think there is a "casual audience" for Red Dwarf?  This isn't primetime BBC1 family show Doctor Who which needs to stay accessible to children who haven't been following every detail for the past 58 years.  It's surely a show that people watch and forgive now because they maintain an obsessive connection and encyclopaedic knowledge of it from the 80s and 90s.

I mean just watch The Promised Land with any concept of "casual audience" in mind.  The palindrome of London is Nodnol.  It dern't work!!

[BeardFaceMan]

I would say there's a casual audience, obviously not as big as it was when it was on Auntie. You have the fans like us who have seen it all multiple times and know it inside out, and then you have the people who see an advert or see RD in the listings and say "oh yes, Red Dwarf, I remember that", so they know the show, but are not fans, per se. They're yer casuals, I can't imagine they get much traffic from people flipping through the channels. Dave is free-to-air, isn't it?

[Replies From View]

Besides, I've always taken the "The Next Generation... Nearly" intro to series III with a certain amount of credence.  I've always viewed it as a vague acknowledgment that series I and II take place in a parallel dimension to series III and beyond,

Everyone is going to view this differently.  I can't go into series 3 thinking that we are experiencing a new version of the main characters.  There has to be continuity in terms of them and their experiences, they have to be the same people for me, even if a Mandela effect thing has changed their costumes and other very minor details.

I can't accept that Annett's Kochanski is the woman that Lister has been pining for since series 1.  It makes him too much of a different character.  As I said in a previous post, Annett's Kochanski is closer to Rimmer's Camille than Lister's.  That's the kind of shift that has taken place beneath our noses if we are to accept what you are saying, and I am unhappy with it.

I'm assuming that we all struggled to accept that series 8 Rimmer was Rimmer.  We are glad the original came back, even though it wasn't even a different actor!  So why not the original Kochanski?

[Replies From View]

Sadly, the fact that they dressed Chloë Annett in skin tight latex and had the Cat constantly refer to her as "Officer Butt Babe" would tend to suggest that you are correct in your suspicions.

It was actually "Officer Bud Babe", like he calls Lister "bud" and Rimmer "non-bud".

Main point still stands though.